CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[JeanClt]

There is something like that already just with not enough funding or authority. CATS is already thinking about commuters into Charlotte and within Charlotte. CATS isn’t just thinking about Charlotte. It is looking at the travel patterns in the surrounding counties looking at ways to provide mobility where people are traveling to especially where they are commuting. From what they have spoken about, it is a moving target and as ideas pop up travel trends change. The commutes of people in the area are dynamic and it is hard to play the catch up game. Especially recently where not everyone has to be in the office 5-days a week. I don’t think the region is ready for that kind of agency or doesn’t work to build it. CATS probably shouldn’t be dissolved as that is unnecessary when you look abroad you could have a conglomeration of transit systems working together which is probably best in this case in this region. I don’t think the wants of the surrounding counties align with their present needs.

(I was going to post this earlier in response but I had forgotten as a saved draft.) Dissolving CATS would put us steps behind as a city and county. There is a lot of commuting within the county that is yet to be addressed.

[TGIBridays]

On 3/18/2022 at 1:48 PM, ajfunder said:

 

Respectfully, plenty of systems run at much higher frequencies at grade through downtown cores. RTD in Denver runs 4 light rail lines at grade in its downtown loop and the city functions just fine. The Blue Line is even more separated then the RTD loop as the RTD one runs in dedicated lane along traffic lanes. RTD also run 4 car trains.

Thanks. Like I said, I could be wrong.  Though it sounded like CATS hasn't planned the signaling (at least aren't currently planning the Silver Line signaling) to handle that high of frequency.  That could change though or maybe Andy Mock just misspoke.

On 3/18/2022 at 1:48 PM, ajfunder said:

Sub 5 minute headways spread across 2 lines should be easily doable through Uptown, especially considering half of the intersections, and busiest (3rd/4th, Stonewall, Moorehead) are grade separated). 

When you say 5 min headways here, that means a 5 min wait for either a blue line or a silver line train (so a 10 min headway for each line respectively), right?  That seems relatively doable, but I still think a 2-3 minute headway is pushing it with at grade crossings.  But again, I am not at all an expert and don't know much about the mechanics.  I'm just basing that on my experience seeing the gates come down in South End for the blue line.  Since each rail line has trains going in both directions the crossing gates go down twice as often as the headway would suggest (or something near to that). With a buffer for the gates to start coming down before the train gets there and then for them to lift after it's passed, that would only allow for the crossing to be open for an extremely short time. This would not only impair vehicle traffic at the crossing, but pedestrian and bike traffic as well. 

The pictures you posted are more of a streetcar/tram setup, which is a whole different thing, But I could see that working better since the trains would just be mixing with the traffic instead of stopping the traffic (if I understand it right). Many of those pictures remind me of the LRT/trams I used in Nantes, France when I spent a semester there in college.  If only I had had an interest in transit at the time. 

[ajfunder]

5 hours ago, TGIBridays said:

Thanks. Like I said, I could be wrong.  Though it sounded like CATS hasn't planned the signaling (at least aren't currently planning the Silver Line signaling) to handle that high of frequency.  That could change though or maybe Andy Mock just misspoke.

When you say 5 min headways here, that means a 5 min wait for either a blue line or a silver line train (so a 10 min headway for each line respectively), right?  That seems relatively doable, but I still think a 2-3 minute headway is pushing it with at grade crossings.  But again, I am not at all an expert and don't know much about the mechanics.  I'm just basing that on my experience seeing the gates come down in South End for the blue line.  Since each rail line has trains going in both directions the crossing gates go down twice as often as the headway would suggest (or something near to that). With a buffer for the gates to start coming down before the train gets there and then for them to lift after it's passed, that would only allow for the crossing to be open for an extremely short time. This would not only impair vehicle traffic at the crossing, but pedestrian and bike traffic as well. 

The pictures you posted are more of a streetcar/tram setup, which is a whole different thing, But I could see that working better since the trains would just be mixing with the traffic instead of stopping the traffic (if I understand it right). Many of those pictures remind me of the LRT/trams I used in Nantes, France when I spent a semester there in college.  If only I had had an interest in transit at the time. 

Yes, I meant 10 minute headways per line, even 8 minute should be feasible. 

Transit signals typically have faster reset times then gated crossings. Something to consider if interlining.  

The pictures I posted are all classified as light rail systems by US standards. They are classified exactly the same as what CATS operates in terms of the Blue Line, many included with the exact same vehicles. None of the photos I shared are considered streetcars. They all have dedicated right-of-ways (separated by bollards/curbs/pavement styles) as well as signal priority at intersections. While they run with traffic they are separated from it and have priority. They don’t use traditional railroad crossing gates but transit signals and red lights to control traffic and take priority at intersections.

CATS has built their light rail system more like a heavy rail system with traditional railroad crossing gates and large flyovers and bridges. Light rail after all in the US context vs a streetcar is a multiple-unit tram (typically, some one car systems) with priority and dedicated right-of-way vs. mixed in traffic. 

Also, you bring up a good point. I wish the US would take the more progressive European Tram approach and allow systems to be a bit more blended where necessary. We restrict ourselves on what is possible by defining one or the other.

Edited March 21, 2022 by ajfunder

[CLT2014]

On 3/1/2022 at 8:48 PM, CLT2014 said:

Black Charlotte leaders voice concern on transit sales tax plan... 

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article258938208.html#storylink=mainstage_card2

North Meck will already vote No on a tax. Parts of South Charlotte will be No. If black Charlotteans turn on the light rail and vote No, I'd say Silver Line is toast like Nashville's transit plan. The Affordable Housing requests would need to be a much bigger parts of Silver Line budget than it is right now.

More articles on the Black Political Caucus requests in order to support transit expansion:

Here are the requests:

• For 4% of sales tax revenue to be dedicated to anti-displacement measures, like tax relief.
• For 10% of housing units built within a mile of a transit station to be affordable.
• For minority contractors to participate in building the transit network at a rate that mirrors the population of Charlotte.

The article cautions against what happened in Nashville in 2018, where a similar message around how light rail transit brings gentrification and pushes people out of their neighborhoods formed. In Nashville, politicians assumed the African American vote (who was 50% of transit ridership and 30% of the population) would vote in favor... instead support was weak and black neighborhoods voted alongside very conservative neighborhoods in suburban Nashville. While the suburban neighborhoods didn't see how a train would benefit them in their sprawling subdivisions, black residents weren't sold on how luxury transit-friendly apartment complexes and breweries were going to benefit their life other than price them out.

I'm personally concerned Charlotte could be marching down the same path as Nashville if it doesn't do something fast to show how this is going to benefit the whole county in order to get a tax passed. Otherwise we could be looking at a similar dynamic as Nashville (No votes from North Meck, West Charlotte, North Charlotte, and parts of South Charlotte and Yes votes from MORA corridor, Center City area, East Charlotte, parts of South Charlotte, and Matthews area).

https://charlotte.axios.com/290183/will-charlottes-13-5-billion-transit-plan-benefit-those-who-need-it-most/

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by CLT2014

[davidclt]

On 3/19/2022 at 2:56 PM, RANYC said:

Are you advocating to dissolve CATS and transit bodies in these other places (like Concord Kannapolis Area Transit) and replace it with a Regional Authority?  To expand existing CATS with a regional scope and regional funding sources, and just dissolve the other small transit bodies throughout the region?  Or to add a new bureaucracy with regional coverage and regional transportation assets which would operate alongside the other existing yet smaller bureaucracies? 

Is your goal that 75% of all trips by residents in the 4-6 county area that you named above take place with transit?

Do you think regional transit planning and implementation can work without regionally-aligned land-use, zoning, and transit-oriented development all interlocked and considered as a unified whole?  

I'm advocating for something like the former, especially for the communities bordering Mecklenburg County. We can't build and drive our way out of the traffic snarls we've created. I realize once you get past Mooresville, Concord, Waxhaw (maybe Monroe), Rock Hill, Gastonia, it gets really sparse and cars are more necessary. We need some sort of regional unifying body with the power of the purse to knit together the region and invest in the infrastructure and connections as well as forward-thinking land-use policy to ensure a sustainable transportation model. 

[CLT>]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:44 PM, davidclt said:

I'm advocating for something like the former, especially for the communities bordering Mecklenburg County. We can't build and drive our way out of the traffic snarls we've created. I realize once you get past Mooresville, Concord, Waxhaw (maybe Monroe), Rock Hill, Gastonia, it gets really sparse and cars are more necessary. We need some sort of regional unifying body with the power of the purse to knit together the region and invest in the infrastructure and connections as well as forward-thinking land-use policy to ensure a sustainable transportation model. 

Charlotte will likely end up with some kind of 'coordinating authority' that can deal with fare and route planning and ticketing, and leave the capital projects to each individual transit authority for the near term. That would then avoid what happened with MARTA happening here. As things start to move forward then land use planning would come with a further phase.

The best first step is to figure out how to combine the MPOs combined first.

 

[kayman]

Cabarrus County is inching closer in silence below the radar of most naysayers towards putting a possible transit referendum in the next few years. I know for a fact that C-K (Concord-Kannapolis) Rider Transit and Cabarrus County Dial-a-Ride service are initiating the possibility of merging operations. The emerging demographics trends, pockets of development density, and employment/activity centers are forming along the I-85 and US 29/Concord Parkway corridors to support high capacity transit improvements.

The Connect Beyond regional transit study refers to this as proof that Cabarrus and Gaston counties will be the next two to support more higher capacity transit improvements in the next 5-10 years. 

Once that happens, CATS will likely be the legacy regional rail operator due to its institutional knowledge and capabilities. That will necessate a public authority versus a city department existence of CATS to be able gain the support and trust of outlying counties.

Edited March 23, 2022 by kayman

[kayman]

58 minutes ago, CLT> said:

Charlotte will likely end up with some kind of 'coordinating authority' that can deal with fare and route planning and ticketing, and leave the capital projects to each individual transit authority for the near term. That would then avoid what happened with MARTA happening here. As things start to move forward then land use planning would come with a further phase.

The best first step is to figure out how to combine the MPOs combined first.

 

True.  There are 5 metropolitan planning organizations (MPO) in the Charlotte metro.  There is an idea but too many fiefdoms don't want to combine because of these individuals want total control over MPO planning activities.

A large bi-state regional council of governments (either the current Centralina Regional Council should lead or a merger of the Centralina RC and Catawba Regional Council of Governments currently housed in Rock Hill to form this) should be created to centralize regional land use planning efforts and the much needed, large Charlotte area MPO.  It's been successfully done in Cincinnati,  St. Louis,  Kansas City, Philadelphia, and Washington DC. We're woefully behind on this yet nobody wants to say anything aloud. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by kayman

[kayman]

Per the MTC meeting, the LYNX Silver Line Rail Trail may become an independent project on its own with or without the rail transit component due federal funding restrictions.

Edited March 23, 2022 by kayman

[kayman]

Also starting next week, LYNX Blue Line peak headways will be 15 minutes instead of 20 minutes per CATS CEO John Lewis.

[kayman]

https://news.yahoo.com/charlotte-group-adds-own-benches-170845703.html

"A new group in Charlotte is tired of standing for long bus waits. Formed last year, the Charlotte Urbanists organization is now taking matters into its own hands by installing benches at some Mecklenburg County bus stops.

Just 344 Mecklenburg County bus stops out of nearly 3,000 have a bench, according to an Observer analysis of county data. That’s just 11.5% of all stops. And only 277 stops have shelters, according to publicly available data from the city’s Charlotte Explorer database.

In total, 677 of CATS bus stops have some sort of amenities, including benches, shelters and smaller two-seater benches that can be mounted to the bus stop pole, CATS spokeswoman Natalie Bouchard told the Observer.

The group of urban planning enthusiasts, Charlotte Urbanists, installed their first bench this week at a Whitehall Commons bus stop near Ayrsley. The organization is taking donations for more benches and has already raised more than $1,800.

At roughly $80 per bench, that’s almost two dozen other bus stops that will soon be getting benches."

These efforts are very similar by to that efforts of the MARTA Army in Metro Atlanta. Clearly there is more of those who care about transit here than some of us sometimes give credit to

Edited March 23, 2022 by kayman

[kermit]

[KJHburg]

St Petersburg FL is rolling out a new BRT service.  I will check it out next visit to the Bay area.  From downtown St Pete to the beach and their downtown which I was at a few years ago is quite vibrant lots of apartments condos and retail. 

https://www.psta.net/about-psta/projects/sunrunner/

opening this year

https://psta.mysocialpinpoint.com/sunrunner_construction

[davidclt]

From Twitter:

CATS wants your feedback! 

Please click the links below to fill out our surveys regarding your experience riding CATS bus and LYNX rail service. 

Bus Survey: https://bit.ly/3ut0V0c

Rail Survey: https://bit.ly/3Dkoo7R

[kermit]

Vague but interesting tweet of the day:

Wonder what it will be used for?

EDIT: CBJ sez: 

Quote

"This federal investment will help the Charlotte Area Transit System — CATS — continue to modernize its fleet, lower emissions, protect bus drivers and employees, and shorten ride times," she [Alma Adams] said. 

So according to Alma this is mostly going to the operations budget. If we don't see much better Blue Line frequencies I am gonna be ticked!

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/04/06/charlotte-region-receives-34m-in-transit-funding.html

Edited April 6, 2022 by kermit

[JeanClt]

Vague but interesting tweet of the day:

Wonder what it will be used for?
EDIT: CBJ sez: 

"This federal investment will help the Charlotte Area Transit System — CATS — continue to modernize its fleet, lower emissions, protect bus drivers and employees, and shorten ride times," she [Alma Adams] said. 

So according to Alma this is mostly going to the operations budget. If we don't see much better Blue Line frequencies I am gonna be ticked!
https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/04/06/charlotte-region-receives-34m-in-transit-funding.html

More cars for the gold line would help frequency… CDOT just needs consider transit like it considers car traffic : (

[Reverie39]

21 hours ago, kermit said:

Vague but interesting tweet of the day:

Wonder what it will be used for?

EDIT: CBJ sez: 

So according to Alma this is mostly going to the operations budget. If we don't see much better Blue Line frequencies I am gonna be ticked!

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/04/06/charlotte-region-receives-34m-in-transit-funding.html

This could be seriously good news for the Gold Line too.

[kermit]

Quote

State Sen. Paul Newton says that consideration of a one-cent sales tax increase to fund transit expansion in Mecklenburg County will have to wait until 2023, at the earliest.

 …“The bad news is, the ‘Field of Dreams’ argument is not going to persuade this legislature,” he said, referring to the 1989 baseball movie’s “If you build it, he will come” catchphrase. “But if they are attracting large employers or transformative employers and it’s that employer’s expectation that we have more light rail than we already have, that’s an argument that we [the legislature] want to roll up our sleeves and understand and see what we can do to be helpful.”

Interesting Republicans in Raleigh left the window cracked with the “attracting large employers” thing,  but I don't understand why the Amazon HQ2 search and the decisions of many other companies since then is not enough data for them.

Unfortunately this schedule would make the earliest possible arrival of the Silver Line 2033 and the remainder of the “transformational mobility network” in 2041. I don’t know of any large employer willing to wait that long, and that kind of wait time prevents these plans from being anything like “transformational”.  This schedule is at least 16 years too late, growth (and climate change) is happening while thumbs are twiddled. Every day that passes without transit expansion is a day that erodes the foundations of the state’s economic engines.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/04/08/no-verdict-on-meck-sales-tax-expected-before-2023.html

Edited April 8, 2022 by kermit

[AirNostrumMAD]

NC only got $176 Million for Transit???

DC Got $1.2 Billion 

VA got $1.2 Billion

MD got $1.7 Billion

+ a special provision in the infrastructure bill for $150 Million annually through fiscal year 2030 to WMATA (the DC Metro that all three states pay money towards)

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/bipartisan-infrastructure-bill-details-money-going-to-dc-maryland-virginia-fact-check/65-9afb2a39-1f28-4c8b-a212-30b65449dd77

Is it correct NC only got $176M? If that is correct, how was this determined? Did elected representatives purposefully not seek much Transit $'s? Presumably for more Highway & road dollars, I assume.

Edited April 8, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

^ That is just an early chunk of cash from the bill. Most of the funding will be delivered through normal grants programs like New Starts from the FTA -  distribution of that will take years.

[JacksonH]

Mayor Pro Tem Julie Eiselt:  Interesting comments at 6:10.

 

[carolina1792]

22 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

NC only got $176 Million for Transit???

DC Got $1.2 Billion 

VA got $1.2 Billion

MD got $1.7 Billion

+ a special provision in the infrastructure bill for $150 Million annually through fiscal year 2030 to WMATA (the DC Metro that all three states pay money towards)

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/bipartisan-infrastructure-bill-details-money-going-to-dc-maryland-virginia-fact-check/65-9afb2a39-1f28-4c8b-a212-30b65449dd77

Is it correct NC only got $176M? If that is correct, how was this determined? Did elected representatives purposefully not seek much Transit $'s? Presumably for more Highway & road dollars, I assume.

Virginia will have to spend $2 billion for a single rail bridge (Long Bridge Project). So it's relatively a drop in the bucket. NC lacking major waterways and terrain should make major interstate rail projects relatively affordable...if only the state would invest. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by carolina1792

[JeanClt]

Virginia will have to spent $2 billion for a single rail bridge (Long Bridge Project). So it's relatively a drop in the bucket. NC lacking major waterways and terrain should make major interstate rail projects relatively affordable...if only the state would invest. 

I think intercity rail needs an improvement within the state more so. Anyone know how people move inside nc? Business/leisure travel between cities? I can’t find any data on intercity travel.

[XRZ.ME]

Is the real time Bus tracking finally arrived?

Quote

Have you downloaded the new and improved CATS-Pass app yet? If not, you are missing out! - Trip Planning in the palm of your hand - Digital ticket purchasing - Real-time GPS bus tracking - More! You can download the app now at: https://bit.ly/2KBJ4gL

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by XRZ.ME
Add quote from Twitter

[SouthEndCLT811]

18 minutes ago, XRZ.ME said:

Is the real time Bus tracking finally arrived?

 

Looks like it, here are a couple examples

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by SouthEndCLT811