CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

San Diego airport authority is paying $500 million for a transit extension to the airport....

(this seems locally relevant)

https://voiceofsandiego.org/2022/04/13/gloria-sandag-settle-on-airport-transit-connection-and-a-regional-transit-hub-downtown/

[JacksonH]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

San Diego airport authority is paying $500 million for a transit extension to the airport....

(this seems locally relevant)

https://voiceofsandiego.org/2022/04/13/gloria-sandag-settle-on-airport-transit-connection-and-a-regional-transit-hub-downtown/

Thank you!  I'm in San Diego and hadn't heard this news.  I always thought it was stupid that the San Diego Trolley (name of our light rail) was not built to go *to* the airport, with the closest station being over a mile away.  Then recently, plans were being formulated for a big transit center (like Charlotte) near Old Town, to serve the San Diego Trolley, Amtrak and "COASTER" heavy rail commuter line, and with a "people mover" from there to the airport.  But having the Sam Diego Trolley line go all the way to the airport is way better than a people mover connection (although that won't do me any good as I don't live on the Trolley line, but it will be great for tourists and other visitors trying to get from the airport to downtown and other stops on the Trolley line, like our two universities).

I posted a video the other day where Julie Eiselt was expressing her support for having the Silver Line go directly to CLT instead of requiring a transfer to a people mover on Wilkinson Blvd (she also prefers the Silver Line to go into the middle of Uptown,  not around it).  I hope Charlotte does the right thing and follows that path.  With the city growing as fast as it is, it will be difficult (and more costly, if not impossible) later on to fix what could turn out to be a big mistake.  Do it right the first time.   Also, Austin is building their light rail directly to their airport.  Charlotte needs to think big and bold if it wants to keep up with cities like Austin.  Otherwise, it could wind up on the losing end of landing major businesses and headquarters.  Invest in the future by building the best infrastructure.

[kermit]

^ A Charlotte airport link is gonna be kinda weird no matter what strategy is decided on .  Most airport transit is at a terminal station, so you only need to plan a single route into the airport and there is no need to navigate past a terminal, beneath runways, etc.). Charlotte's link would almost certainly need to continue past the airport to 485 and perhaps Gaston county, this makes the routing doubly complicated and expensive compared to most. The extension past the airport will improve ridership, but it will make the airport connection much more complicated and it will need to not slow down trains much (unlike most airport connectors).

I am no expert but I have said before that I don't see a practical way to get 3 car LRT vehicles in, and out, of the terminal area. I am fine with a people mover connection to the terminal which will allow for much faster LRT service to Gaston. Having said that, it was seven different types of stupid that that damn-near the whole terminal and surrounding parking garages were recently rebuilt without any provision for future transit (e.g. a cut and cover tunnel beneath the daily deck or new access road, or the apron around terminal A and E reconstruction).  WTF didn't they consider any of that?

Edited April 16, 2022 by kermit

[RANYC]

You’re absolutely right.

I wish the talk of fixed rail could be done more in terms of Return on Invested Capital than just in terms of expected expenditure.  Yes it’s expensive, but we’ve seen with the Blue Line and with other examples at how stimulative fixed-line transit can be in terms of brand, job growth, and scalability.  This really should be a no-brainer.

Couldn’t a third party Econ Development Analysis on the silver and red lines be done alongside the design work and then used to get the assembly to sign off on the referendum?

[kermit]

On 4/15/2022 at 8:00 AM, RANYC said:

Couldn’t a third party Econ Development Analysis on the silver and red lines be done alongside the design work and then used to get the assembly to sign off on the referendum?

Sadly I think we are past politicians responding to that kind of logic. Its pretty well accepted (and clearly demonstrated in Charlotte) that rail transit has good to great long-term ROIs, particularly in contrast to roads. But, much like climate change, partisan politics forces decision makers to ignore the evidence in order to please the their base. In this case pols on the right will always whine about taxes, fictional “wars on cars”, or “this line won’t serve my neighborhood so it does not deserve public money.” They couldn’t care less if a rail line generates massive economic benefits if it does not appeal to their base.

We wouda been fine if localities were allowed to make their own policy decisions in NC, instead the 20th (or whatever) largest metro in the country is trapped in a weird, right-wing, nanny state run by old, Buick-driving dudes from Kings Mountain and Eden. 
 

Edited April 19, 2022 by kermit

[southslider]

Those totally opposed to transit aren't the only hurdle to funding more transit. There are those who would ideally support more transit but don't trust giving more funding to those who have so bumbled the planning and operations of this region's transit.  The winnable votes include those who've been fooled too long on Red Line, feel Streetcar was a waste, or even just want better Uptown routing for Silver Line.  Transit proponents would do better to solidify their allies before blaming their opponents.

[Reverie39]

On 4/13/2022 at 3:42 PM, JacksonH said:

Thank you!  I'm in San Diego and hadn't heard this news.  I always thought it was stupid that the San Diego Trolley (name of our light rail) was not built to go *to* the airport, with the closest station being over a mile away.  Then recently, plans were being formulated for a big transit center (like Charlotte) near Old Town, to serve the San Diego Trolley, Amtrak and "COASTER" heavy rail commuter line, and with a "people mover" from there to the airport.  But having the Sam Diego Trolley line go all the way to the airport is way better than a people mover connection (although that won't do me any good as I don't live on the Trolley line, but it will be great for tourists and other visitors trying to get from the airport to downtown and other stops on the Trolley line, like our two universities).

I posted a video the other day where Julie Eiselt was expressing her support for having the Silver Line go directly to CLT instead of requiring a transfer to a people mover on Wilkinson Blvd (she also prefers the Silver Line to go into the middle of Uptown,  not around it).  I hope Charlotte does the right thing and follows that path.  With the city growing as fast as it is, it will be difficult (and more costly, if not impossible) later on to fix what could turn out to be a big mistake.  Do it right the first time.   Also, Austin is building their light rail directly to their airport.  Charlotte needs to think big and bold if it wants to keep up with cities like Austin.  Otherwise, it could wind up on the losing end of landing major businesses and headquarters.  Invest in the future by building the best infrastructure.

Agreed on San Diego. They have a nice light rail system but I thought it was pretty silly when I first landed there earlier this year and had to take a random shuttle just to get to the station… and in the process passed what look like one or two other stations. Didn’t make any sense to me. 

[RANYC]

7 hours ago, southslider said:

Those totally opposed to transit aren't the only hurdle to funding more transit. There are those who would ideally support more transit but don't trust giving more funding to those who have so bumbled the planning and operations of this region's transit.  The winnable votes include those who've been fooled too long on Red Line, feel Streetcar was a waste, or even just want better Uptown routing for Silver Line.  Transit proponents would do better to solidify their allies before blaming their opponents.

That’s true.  You can be pro-rail and against this particular transit package.

[JRCLT]

Better routing = more money… hmmm increased risk for delays and overrunning budget… parties involved with allowing that improved ROW. If people want better routing maybe be ready for those risks? If they can agree to those risks then all the power to them. Streetcar is a foundation and investment. Wouldn’t say it’s a waste… especially when the project still has another phase… if this were built out and the service continued to be mediocre that is a failure and waste of money in that case, but even then it wouldn’t simply be utterly useless because at that point it is probably management not investment in the wrong area. Like I’ve said before you can’t expect more without injecting investment. Expecting more fire without fuel is illogical. In terms of management how that “fuel” is handled can determine the best or worst outcomes and CATS has a combination of both issues imo.

[RANYC]

Does CATS have any digital devices to measure and report on the extent of delays or variation from standard service expectation across rail, streetcar, and bus?

[RANYC]

What if transit package drastically reduced in scope: light rail from uptown to airport, bus rapid transit on independence boulevard, bus rapid transit to northern towns, upgrade all bus fleet to electric, real-time apps, restructure bus routing so it doesn’t all have to go through uptown, greenway completion, holistic concrete Ballard strategy to protect all bike lanes and as traffic calming in areas desired to be heavily walkable like MORA…

feasible to do all of this while bypassing the assembly and just focusing on increasing sales tax through referendum by .25 cents and moderate property tax increase at next revaluation?

Edited April 19, 2022 by RANYC

[southslider]

On 4/16/2022 at 2:13 PM, JeanClt said:

Better routing = more money

Not if they'd just use the existing Blue Line through Uptown for Silver Line.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:00 AM, RANYC said:

You’re absolutely right.

I wish the talk of fixed rail could be done more in terms of Return on Invested Capital than just in terms of expected expenditure.  Yes it’s expensive, but we’ve seen with the Blue Line and with other examples at how stimulative fixed-line transit can be in terms of brand, job growth, and scalability.  This really should be a no-brainer.

Couldn’t a third party Econ Development Analysis on the silver and red lines be done alongside the design work and then used to get the assembly to sign off on 

Correct.  Politician, heck even Planners, still don't get it...Development FOLLOWS transportation not the other way around.

[southslider]

5 hours ago, Phillydog said:

Development FOLLOWS transportation not the other way around.

Not Elizabeth Avenue. Oldest section of streetcar.  And still NO development.

[jtmonk]

3 hours ago, southslider said:

Not Elizabeth Avenue. Oldest section of streetcar.  And still NO development.

You can thank the property owners for that.  If the property was in other hands it would most certainly be developed. 

[kayman]

12 hours ago, Phillydog said:

Correct.  Politician, heck even Planners, still don't get it...Development FOLLOWS transportation not the other way around.

Oh most planners do understand this all too well.  However, you have a lot of fools in elected positions in Metro Charlotte along with the NC General Assembly and SC General Assembly who want to hold on to this delusional low density, cost-cutting, and small town like sentiments of this 3 million+ populated region.  This is why you all need to vote in persons who see this region as the major city as it is. They support a regional mass transit authority like PTI in the Triad or GoTriangle in the Triangle with a robust bus network (local and express) across the state line to major areas, micromobility options from adequate sidewalks along streetscapes, multiuse path connections, TNCs, protected bike lanes, and 3 regional rapid rail (LRT) lines and at least 3 commuter rail lines.  This can be supplemented by existing fixed routes bus entities just expanded in surrounding urbanized counties like Gaston, Cabarrus, Rowan, Iredell, York, Catawba counties along with new ones to be created in Union and Lancaster counties 

 

[Richhamleigh, DC]

6 hours ago, southslider said:

Not Elizabeth Avenue. Oldest section of streetcar.  And still NO development.

There are buildings on Elizabeth.  Without a way to get there there would be none.  

[JRCLT]

Not if they'd just use the existing Blue Line through Uptown for Silver Line.

The complexity with that could cause issues…in the long run. That silver line would literally be coming at 90 degree angle and finding away to make the turn as a smooth as possible would be a nightmare. CATS is trying to avoid any sharps turns because they’re loud, slow, and rocky. Also doing that would negate the development, the people who live and will live in fourth and third ward. Leaving that area of uptown void of connections outside from the gold line and that doesn’t extend as far as with the blue or the silver. The connections there are between the gold and the Blue line isn’t great and comparable to the silver line “transfer” point. Simply for the convenience of a transfer that really isn’t that hard to make as it stands doesn’t really outweigh the trade offs. It could be better and much more convenient but it wouldn’t take more than 3 minutes to walk over to either station.

[southslider]

43 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

The connections there are between the gold and the Blue line isn’t great and comparable to the silver line “transfer” point. Simply for the convenience of a transfer that really isn’t that hard to make as it stands doesn’t really outweigh the trade offs. It could be better and much more convenient but it wouldn’t take more than 3 minutes to walk over to either station.

That's exactly the biggest downside to not overlapping the lines. As inconvenient as the transfer between Blue and Gold is, the same should not be planned between Blue and Silver. Walking 3 minutes each transfer every trip adds up to a lot more time lost by those already experiencing a longer transit-based commute than the motorists briefly stopped for more passing trains.

[JRCLT]

That's exactly the biggest downside to not overlapping the lines. As inconvenient as the transfer between Blue and Gold is, the same should not be planned between Blue and Silver. Walking 3 minutes each transfer every trip adds up to a lot more time lost by those already experiencing a longer transit-based commute than the motorists briefly stopped for more passing trains.

Okay that being said.

1. How many people will use the transfer point?
2. How would using the blue line row slow down the train at those sharp turns and add time anyways?

With the 2. I would rather if it is a real option simple take it down Tryon St. Instead. Anyways the people taking that transfer would likely just want to go further down toward south end from the silver line anyways I would think. This would turn Tryon into a LRT thoroughfare but it would run the silver line right through the heart.

[kermit]

This could go in any number of threads (affordable housing, UDO etc.) but this one was handy.

from a twitter discussion on “what city have you changed your mind on?” While Charlotte was never mentioned, this post on Vancouver seemed particularly relevant to Charlotte. This is exactly what I see Charlotte doing, much to my frustration:

 

 

its extra frustrating in Charlotte since I moment has been here for more than twice as long as Vancouver’s.

Edited April 19, 2022 by kermit

[RANYC]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

This could go in any number of threads (affordable housing, UDO etc.) but this one was handy.

from a twitter discussion on “what city have you changed your mind on?” While Charlotte was never mentioned, this post on Vancouver seemed particularly relevant to Charlotte. This is exactly what I see Charlotte doing, much to my frustration:

 

 

its extra frustrating in Charlotte since I moment has been here for more than twice as long as Vancouver’s.

I'm unclear on what that means - is there some way Charlotte is uniquely failing to grow and meet a moment in some way that a benchmark of other cities is meeting it (apart from quality and brand value of its public schools)?

Edited April 19, 2022 by RANYC

[southslider]

6 hours ago, JeanClt said:

1. How many people will use the transfer point?
2. How would using the blue line row slow down the train at those sharp turns and add time anyways?

1. A lot of those transfers now happen at CTC, but with Silver Line, several east and west bus routes, including the highest ridership bus routes, could more efficiently connect outside of Uptown

2. Not significantly slower than curves already planned on Silver Line, like around North Graham Street

[kermit]

20 hours ago, RANYC said:

I'm unclear on what that means - is there some way Charlotte is uniquely failing to grow and meet a moment in some way that a benchmark of other cities is meeting it (apart from quality and brand value of its public schools)?

Vancouver is a magnificent city that decided to shut the door to all future housing growth back in 1997 when the wealthy Hong Kong expats started pouring in. Subsequently everyone other than the superrich were priced out.

I didn’t mean to suggest that Charlotte is growing badly relative to other sunbelt cities (we are decidedly on the Atlanta path). There are a small handful of US cities that have seen substantial growth and accommodated  that growth in a way that is environmentally and economically sustainable. Salt Lake City and  Denver come closest to this ideal I think. Their magic was expanding transit along with density. Internationally examples of growing cities that have ‘met the moment’ are Berlin and Vienna (I don’t know enough about Asian cities to cite any). The pre rust belt Midwest (Chicago!) pulled off this ‘meeting the moment’ thing incredibly well, but they didn’t have cars to contend with.

Charlotte is growing (and has been for 50+ years), but our zoning pushes most new arrivals  into subdivisions in Cabarrus County. Congestion / VMT is rapidly getting worse because of that (even in the WFH age) and the lack of transit drives up in town housing costs and enables NIMBY whining and auto-centric design (e.g. office buildings w massive parking decks despite being adjacent to the Blue Line). In essence we are building a metro of 3+ million with land use and transportation infrastructure designed for 1/10th of that pop.

If we were meeting the moment we would have 70 miles of LRT, suburban neighborhoods full of townhouses, 200 miles of integrated bike network, and housing values (in Mecklenburg) around 4 times median income. But we don’t, so the city (as a whole) seems to be comfortable building endless sprawl around 6 attractive and increasingly unaffordable neighborhoods.

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by kermit

[davidclt]

17 hours ago, RANYC said:

I'm unclear on what that means - is there some way Charlotte is uniquely failing to grow and meet a moment in some way that a benchmark of other cities is meeting it (apart from quality and brand value of its public schools)?

I have a list:

1. Failing to build a sustainable multi-modal (prioritizing pedestrians, bikes, scooters , transit over cars), regional transit system.
2. Failing to start thinking like a "big city" examples:
   • Still led by a part-time City Council and weak Mayor
   • Failure to provide big city services outside of special "tax zones" (SouthEnd, Uptown, Ush*tty)
   • Failure to put in place systems and structures like neighborhood pocket parks, real neighborhood services (i.e. public trash cans, bus shelters)
   • Failure to invest in services for residents (i.e. working, functional useful website the Charmeck site is a sh*tshow)
3. Failing to make real investments in building a sense of place in neighborhoods and developing that sense of place, instead letting developers build cul-de-sacs, single entry, single exit, disconnected except by arterial neighborhoods . . . still.
4. Still thinking as a city of bankers from the 1950s (penny wise, pound foolish) rather than a diverse, modern city looking toward the future in 2022 (investing for the long term).
5. Failing to meet the challenges of educational equity head-on and instead allowing the tail to wag the dog.

This is just a start.

Edited April 20, 2022 by davidclt
Added a final sentence rather than leave my list hanging and add an image of the really funny swear autocorrect.