CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[videtur quam contuor]

I have been watching the newest Netflix phenomenon "On My Own" which films Japanese toddlers going on their first independent errand and traveling startling distances and remembering several purchases and stops before returning. After dark in one of the first episodes. While watching these I wonder how one builds community where this can occur. It is clear that the young ones have accompanied mama on these paths numerous times so the route is known to them. Still, with traffic and narrow streets and winding lanes, and in my recent episode a crowded fish market and I mean crowded Japan style crowded. So far they have mostly been successful and these are children 2 y 10 months to 3 yrs+ and I wondered what children of that age would attempt in my neighborhood other than walk to the corner and back. Would they take a bus? Then what? To the Park, maybe? Would the police knock on the door when they return her? City design fosters habits for even the youngest among us. How much later is independence achieved, for our youth with no neighborhood to know and recognize. Who designs for them? 

Edited April 20, 2022 by tarhoosier

[JRCLT]

1. A lot of those transfers now happen at CTC, but with Silver Line, several east and west bus routes, including the highest ridership bus routes, could more efficiently connect outside of Uptown
2. Not significantly slower than curves already planned on Silver Line, like around North Graham Street

That Curve on North Graham has a SIGNIFICANTLY larger radius than the curves needed to introduce to the current blue line and has a lot of room on undeveloped or lightly developed land it can cross over and not a grade at that. To merge the silver line and blue line would require an at-grade connection.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, JeanClt said:

To merge the silver line and blue line would require an at-grade connection.

And such a connection would also introduce signal delays as trains would need to wait for other trains to clear the junction. While it’s tempting to say “scheduling could be used to prevent those delays,” CATS has given zero indication that they are capable of such operations.

Edited April 20, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

And such a connection would also introduce signal delays as trains would need to wait for others to clear the junction. While it’s tempting to say “scheduling could be used to prevent those delays,” CATS has given zero indication that they are capable of such operations.

^ even if CATS were perfect. The at-grade crossings on the blue line themselves would cause delays if a driver decides to commit a stupid mistake. It is inevitable with grade crossings.

[southslider]

Dallas has the largest LRT system in the US yet manages multiple overlapping lines in its downtown, and so do many other cities, like Denver, Minneapolis, and Portland.

[JRCLT]

Dallas has the largest LRT system in the US yet manages multiple overlapping lines in its downtown, and so do many other cities, like Denver, Minneapolis, and Portland.

That is true and I am aware. The question is, will it make sense to do that over what is currently planned? Or Will the alignment just end up causing the same time delay and lose out light rail to the gateway station. A multimodal facility that has access to Amtrak intercity rail but ALSO the airport. Two major forms of large scale transportation hubs. And yes you have the gold line… but that does reach nearly as many people and as of currently isn’t very effective and reliable due to a variety of reasons and agencies. Don’t know if that will change in the near future but it would be the only rail connection to CGS. Some of us state the lack of transit connections to rail stations in NC makes it hard to use effectively. I agree with that. It would make using Amtrak more convenient if the only way to get there isn’t just a car. I know it would make it a lot easier for me. It would make sense to shifted 9th st station over closer to the silver line station or route the line closer to 9th st? If 3 mins is a make or break?

[TCLT]

Why is a 3 minute walk between stations seen as such a problem? it routinely takes that long or longer to walk between platforms to make transfers in major subway systems. And the wait between trains is likely to be at least that long anyway. As long as there's a relatively well sheltered walkway I don't understand why it should be a deal breaker for the types of trips that would need to make that transfer. 

[jthomas]

2 hours ago, TCLT said:

Why is a 3 minute walk between stations seen as such a problem? it routinely takes that long or longer to walk between platforms to make transfers in major subway systems. And the wait between trains is likely to be at least that long anyway. As long as there's a relatively well sheltered walkway I don't understand why it should be a deal breaker for the types of trips that would need to make that transfer. 

I agree that a transfer station done well makes switching lines easy for riders. Unfortunately, the “done well” part seems to be missing from the proposals so far.

This transfer station will be perhaps the most important node in the entire light rail system. To me, “done well” means that the platforms on both lines should be vertically stacked or nearly so, which would involve shifting the Blue Line platforms north 1 block. It would mean that both platforms are entirely enclosed as interior space, so that the transfer is made in a sheltered and somewhat climate-controlled environment. And ideally, the station would be integrated into a larger development, with ample retail options accessible for transferring riders.

The Blue/Silver transfer should be the focal point of the entire system. It should be a desirable location for development, given its easy access to all corners of the city via rail. Instead, what is being proposed is an elevated station next to a freeway, which forces a block-long walk down a sidewalk to reach the other line. To me, that is an unacceptable lack of vision and execution.

[TCLT]

40 minutes ago, jthomas said:

I agree that a transfer station done well makes switching lines easy for riders. Unfortunately, the “done well” part seems to be missing from the proposals so far.

This transfer station will be perhaps the most important node in the entire light rail system. To me, “done well” means that the platforms on both lines should be vertically stacked or nearly so, which would involve shifting the Blue Line platforms north 1 block. It would mean that both platforms are entirely enclosed as interior space, so that the transfer is made in a sheltered and somewhat climate-controlled environment. And ideally, the station would be integrated into a larger development, with ample retail options accessible for transferring riders.

The Blue/Silver transfer should be the focal point of the entire system. It should be a desirable location for development, given its easy access to all corners of the city via rail. Instead, what is being proposed is an elevated station next to a freeway, which forces a block-long walk down a sidewalk to reach the other line. To me, that is an unacceptable lack of vision and execution.

It feels like your expectations are waaaaaayyyyy higher than what was ever gonna be realistic. A fully enclosed transfer station integrated into mixed use development is just not where Charlotte is at. To me, done well would be to include an escalator bank to speed up vertical circulation. The escalators/stairs and walkway would be fully covered from station to station to protect from weather. Hopefully high quality materials, design, and art would be integrated. It's only the second light rail line, and will be the only LRT transfer point. Ridership/transfers aren't that high and won't be for a long time. Let's temper our dreams a bit.

edit: I also think this transfer station will be far from the most important or most used station. Arena, East/West, Bland, Parkwood, 36th St, and UNCC Main on the Blue Line and CGS, Stadium, and Airport on the Silver Line are all likely to be and remain more important for some time.

Edited April 20, 2022 by TCLT

[jthomas]

17 minutes ago, TCLT said:

It feels like your expectations are waaaaaayyyyy higher than what was ever gonna be realistic. A fully enclosed transfer station integrated into mixed use development is just not where Charlotte is at. To me, done well would be to include an escalator bank to speed up vertical circulation. The escalators/stairs and walkway would be fully covered from station to station to protect from weather. Hopefully high quality materials, design, and art would be integrated. It's only the second light rail line, and will be the only LRT transfer point. Ridership/transfers aren't that high and won't be for a long time. Let's temper our dreams a bit.

edit: I also think this transfer station will be far from the most important or most used station. Arena, East/West, Bland, Parkwood, 36th St, and UNCC Main on the Blue Line and CGS, Stadium, and Airport on the Silver Line are all likely to be and remain more important for some time.

My expectations are that a multi-billion dollar transit investment should follow international best practices, should facilitate the movement of people to the greatest degree possible, and should be planned with a view to the next 50, if not 100 years. I don’t think that’s unreasonable to expect.

[davidclt]

 Tying together four! streams of this thread. . .

17 hours ago, kermit said:

Vancouver is a magnificent city

57 minutes ago, jthomas said:

a transfer station done well makes switching lines easy for riders

23 minutes ago, TCLT said:

It feels like your expectations are waaaaaayyyyy higher than what was ever gonna be realistic.

4 minutes ago, jthomas said:

a multi-billion dollar transit investment should follow international best practices

When I think of my ideal transfer (costs be damned we need to do this right, not cheap!)  this is precisely what I think Commercial–Broadway station - Wikipedia on the Vancouver SkyTrain is what we should be aspiring to. Their system is well thought out and I've used it numerous times to get to points in the city and east all the way out to the wilds of Burnaby (the station is near the Kinder Morgan tank farm).

[TCLT]

1 hour ago, jthomas said:

My expectations are that a multi-billion dollar transit investment should follow international best practices, should facilitate the movement of people to the greatest degree possible, and should be planned with a view to the next 50, if not 100 years. I don’t think that’s unreasonable to expect.

It's certainly not unreasonable to want. But I definitely think it's unreasonable to expect for where/what Charlotte is in terms of population, development, geography, politics, and especially funding. And let's be honest a 26 mile light rail line with 10 minute headways that can only support 3 cars is not a 50 or 100 year solution so it doesn't make sense worry about a single transfer station being a future proofed crown jewel. There won't be enough people in and around the stations to justify the infrastructure and amenities you're suggesting and I don't think there will be until well after the line is actually built.

1 hour ago, davidclt said:

When I think of my ideal transfer (costs be damned we need to do this right, not cheap!)  this is precisely what I think Commercial–Broadway station - Wikipedia on the Vancouver SkyTrain is what we should be aspiring to.

A scaled down version of this is basically what's planned no? It's a similar distance between platforms. Cover the walkway and it's to that station as LRT is to subways.

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, davidclt said:

 Tying together four! streams of this thread. . .

When I think of my ideal transfer (costs be damned we need to do this right, not cheap!)  this is precisely what I think Commercial–Broadway station - Wikipedia on the Vancouver SkyTrain is what we should be aspiring to. Their system is well thought out and I've used it numerous times to get to points in the city and east all the way out to the wilds of Burnaby (the station is near the Kinder Morgan tank farm).

Commercial-Broadway is a great outdoor transfer station, I agree. The Millennium Line platform is quite pretty in the Spring/Summer with the greenery growing in the embankment. 

Closer to home, Ft. Totten station in DC is another good example, and similar to Commercial-Broadway in that one segment is elevated, the other is at an embankment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Totten_station

[TCLT]

No one seriously thinks there's even the slightest chance we'll see a station even remotely comparable to Ft Totten or Commercial-Broadway, right. Right?

Average Daily Rail Ridership:

Charlotte: ~27,000

Washington DC: ~600,000

Vancouver: ~500,000

[kermit]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:20 PM, TCLT said:

No one seriously thinks there's even the slightest chance we'll see a station even remotely comparable to Ft Totten or Commercial-Broadway, right. Right?

Average Daily Rail Ridership:

Charlotte: ~27,000

Washington DC: ~600,000

Vancouver: ~500,000

at your 600,000 figure Washington metro sees around 5,100 riders per mile.

The Blue line sees approximately 1,200 riders per mile.

We have a limited system and much worse land use than DC. I could see the full Silver Line eventually doubling our riders per mile number and aggressive changes to landuse could create some additional increases. I don't anticipate Charlotte transit will ever see WMATA numbers, but I do think carrying more than half of their per mile numbers is possible with an additional line and land use change (plus decent Gold Line frequency for calculator service and a decent bike network designed to augment LRT).

Vancouver sees 10,000 riders per mile on a system that is roughly the same size as Blue + Silver Line. This is in a metro area that is roughly the same size as Charlotte. Vancouver got kickass ridership from running a very high frequency (automated) system, limits on parking and very high intown densities.

On 4/20/2022 at 1:03 PM, TCLT said:

And let's be honest a 26 mile light rail line with 10 minute headways that can only support 3 cars is not a 50 or 100 year solution so it doesn't make sense worry about a single transfer station being a future proofed crown jewel.

You are correct, that is not a useful provision of transit for the long term. However, I would argue that what you outline above with 5 minute frequencies could handle just about any growth Charlotte will likely see over the next 50+ years.

Edited April 23, 2022 by kermit

[elrodvt]

Good posts and that's why I'm still not a huge Charlotte fan coming from Denver. Suspect if I'd come from Birmingham or some other SE city I'd feel differently.

It's never too late tho. I don't feel like I know enough sometimes to pick the right candidates so am not really doing my part. With no local paper worth a damn it's hard. If someone cares to write up the best candidates from an urbanist perspective that'd help! Probably get a lot of hate though. :-)

[elrodvt]

What do you think of Denver's union station? It ties LRT, Amtrak and Commuter to the airport together along with brt lines. Plus it's a beautiful renovation. I know they have had their operational challenges with the commuter line but it seemed pretty good when I was there last June.

Why doesn't Charlotte support a similar build? I'm not up on all the current plans - do they just not work out geographically to make a similar station possible?

[DMann]

We have no buildings like that to be renovated/restored.

[CLT2014]

The new Gateway Station would actually probably be the most like  Denver's Union Station from a functional standpoint. It will have Amtrak, bus routes, the Silver Line to the airport, and the Gold Line. It would also be like Denver's Union Station by being on the edge of the Central Business District rather than right in the very middle of it. It should stimulate development though like Denver's did to make a whole new portion of the CBD. For a commute from Denver Airport to the Grand Hyatt Denver for example, a rider would transfer to a bus or the mall ride at Union Station for the final .8 miles or take a 15 minute walk. Over in Charlotte, if the Gold Line had improved frequencies, it would be similar to Denver's Mall Ride. A rider in Charlotte going from the airport to Bank of America's HQ on Tryon would get on the Silver Line at CLT and take it to Gateway Station, where they would transfer to the Gold Line or a bus for the final .5 miles or they could take a 9 minute walk. Very similar to Denver's flows.

The Blue Line will not route through the new Gateway Station though, meaning it isn't a single connecting destination to all lines. For a rider going from Matthews to South End, they would transfer from the Silver Line to the Gold Line at the 11th/9th street stations near the UNCC Center City Campus and the Levine wasteland garage.  

Edited April 21, 2022 by CLT2014

[elrodvt]

Thanks for the explanations. Although we don't have a structure to renovate we could make the decision to build something iconic. However, to my eye, we typically lean towards "value engineering".

[JRCLT]

I mean if it were really up to me…run it right through first ward and road diet. One less road people speed on in uptown lol. Treat it like south ends row. Create adjacent land development which would May get some of Levine land out of its endless deserted state.

But unfortunately, I’m not in charge of the LPA and some people and entities it would impact may not want this. Instead of wasting money on building complex bridges and overpasses just have CLT gov (CDOT?) grant access to the street Row and row through some parcels. Who’s knows how that would go…

[southslider]

The main reason to be concerned more about interconnectivity of LYNX lines than serving Gateway Station is there are a ton more riders connecting with Blue Line at CTC than there ever have been or ever will be from all the North Meck Expresses and Amtrak trains combined.  And thus, it's a safe bet that Silver Line will connect a ton more riders with Blue Line than would ever be connecting with Red Line and Amtrak combined.

[ertley]

11 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I mean if it were really up to me…run it right through first ward and road diet. One less road people speed on in uptown lol. Treat it like south ends row. Create adjacent land development which would May get some of Levine land out of its endless deserted state.

But unfortunately, I’m not in charge of the LPA and some people and entities it would impact may not want this. Instead of wasting money on building complex bridges and overpasses just have CLT gov (CDOT?) grant access to the street Row and row through some parcels. Who’s knows how that would go…

I'd offer a refinement: If you're going to utilize the median right of way of 10th in the Fourth Ward, I would shift the line to do the same with the median of 9th in First Ward--and the median is wide enough you'd actually still be able to keep the street largely intact on each side. I realize NIMFYs (Not in My Front Yard) along 9th would likely make this impossible, but a nicely landscaped barrier and/or attractive fencing along the tracks would make it not-an-eyesore, IMO.

The transition from one street to the other would have to occur through the block where First Ward Elementary currently is, but with so many empty or underdeveloped parcels in First Ward--many of course owned by Daniel Levine (see below*), relocating the school wouldn't be an impossible mission. Of course the margins of the block where the school currently is could be redeveloped. 

The actual amazing element? Taking this down 10th Street in Fourth Ward would put the intersection of the two lines at the immediate end of the existing 9th Street station. 

Another really interesting part of your proposition for First Ward is that at least three blocks of the line could replace non-existent parts of 10th, through the Levine post-apocalyptic superblock* and then by Hal Marshall, which IMO would make their eventual (re)development far more interesting and profitable by having the Silver Line and its rail trail running through them. 

For me, the strongest argument against using the same alignment for the Silver and Blue lines downtown is the practical consideration of curving the Silver Line to merge with the existing tracks and then exit them; I just don't see where it's realistic to find *two* whole blocks to make it happen. 

Another out of the box suggestion: Why not simply move the CTC to the two blocks the city/county already owns, between 9th and 11th adjoining the Blue Line? Even if the city (which of course is what's going to most likely happen) runs the silver Line down 11th, wouldn't having the CTC at whatever transfer station approximation between the two primary light rail lines be preferrable than having it at the crossing of only one line and a streetcar? I can't believe the city/county doesn't have some sort of plan to replace the vital records center anyway, because that parcel has to be slated to eventual redevelopment. Just offer the block where the current CTC is for a straighforward redevelopment. People arriving at this College/9th/11th CTC could then take either the Blue or Silver Lines for only a few stops to get to any job in downtown if they weren't transferring to another bus line--besides simply walking a few blocks. 

 

[TCLT]

I'd offer a refinement: If you're going to utilize the median right of way of 10th in the Fourth Ward, I would shift the line to do the same with the median of 9th in First Ward--and the median is wide enough you'd actually still be able to keep the street largely intact on each side. I realize NIMFYs (Not in My Front Yard) along 9th would likely make this impossible, but a nicely landscaped barrier and/or attractive fencing along the tracks would make it not-an-eyesore, IMO.
The transition from one street to the other would have to occur through the block where First Ward Elementary currently is, but with so many empty or underdeveloped parcels in First Ward--many of course owned by Daniel Levine (see below*), relocating the school wouldn't be an impossible mission. Of course the margins of the block where the school currently is could be redeveloped. 
The actual amazing element? Taking this down 10th Street in Fourth Ward would put the intersection of the two lines at the immediate end of the existing 9th Street station. 
Another really interesting part of your proposition for First Ward is that at least three blocks of the line could replace non-existent parts of 10th, through the Levine post-apocalyptic superblock* and then by Hal Marshall, which IMO would make their eventual (re)development far more interesting and profitable by having the Silver Line and its rail trail running through them. 
For me, the strongest argument against using the same alignment for the Silver and Blue lines downtown is the practical consideration of curving the Silver Line to merge with the existing tracks and then exit them; I just don't see where it's realistic to find *two* whole blocks to make it happen. 
Another out of the box suggestion: Why not simply move the CTC to the two blocks the city/county already owns, between 9th and 11th adjoining the Blue Line? Even if the city (which of course is what's going to most likely happen) runs the silver Line down 11th, wouldn't having the CTC at whatever transfer station approximation between the two primary light rail lines be preferrable than having it at the crossing of only one line and a streetcar? I can't believe the city/county doesn't have some sort of plan to replace the vital records center anyway, because that parcel has to be slated to eventual redevelopment. Just offer the block where the current CTC is for a straighforward redevelopment. People arriving at this College/9th/11th CTC could then take either the Blue or Silver Lines for only a few stops to get to any job in downtown if they weren't transferring to another bus line--besides simply walking a few blocks. 
 

You’d also somehow have to get the ROW through or around Trinity school. Routing through garden district doesn’t seem feasible or preferable. Too much private property to try to buy out or relocate and too many potential riders would be displaced.

[kermit]

16 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I mean if it were really up to me…run it right through first ward and road diet. One less road people speed on in uptown lol. Treat it like south ends row. Create adjacent land development which would May get some of Levine land out of its endless deserted state.

But unfortunately, I’m not in charge of the LPA and some people and entities it would impact may not want this. Instead of wasting money on building complex bridges and overpasses just have CLT gov (CDOT?) grant access to the street Row and row through some parcels. Who’s knows how that would go…

How can anyone look at this image and not immediately think “lets just run this thing on the removed 277”?