CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Hushpuppy321]

21 hours ago, kermit said:

They are building a second platform in Salisbury which will increase capacity for all types of passenger rail a bit.

Commuter rail from Gateway station, east (to Salisbury and Spencer) is very feasible thanks to the tracks being owned by the NCRR. West of Gateway is a different story since the tracks are owned by NS. There has been very little talk of commuter rail on any of these tracks however. I suspect some of the reasons for the silence include:

• Some duplication with the BLE
• The current Charlotte rail station
• Cabarrus and Rowan have expressed little interest (or identified any funding)
• A desire not to ‘irritate’ NS and make them fear more interference on the NCRR leased tracks (more traffic on the NCRR is part of the reason for NS intransigence on the Red Line)
• I-85 being somewhat less congested than 77

Having said that, Gateway station is on the horizon, I am sure I-85 will be gridlocked shortly and Cabarrus and Rowan will want a better connection to the the region’s core. The Triangle is about to get started on commuter rail on their (less congested) portion of the NCRR, its success will play a huge role in determining the future of commuter rail from Charlotte to Salisbury IMO.

Dang I’m jealous of the Triangle for this reason (as well as a few others).  Not sure how well commuter rail will work in that very decentralized /diffuse metro area. 

[15895]

5 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Dang I’m jealous of the Triangle for this reason (as well as a few others).  Not sure how well commuter rail will work in that very decentralized /diffuse metro area. 

Commuter rail works better in diffused metro areas IMO. 
 

DC for example we have 2 commuter rail systems. The only that operates 7 days a week with all day service is the line to Baltimore. The other lines and VRE operate trains to DC in the AM & out in the PM and no weekend service.

Other cities with extensive commuter rail have branches that get low or 0 service outside of commuting times merging to give higher density areas more frequent service. 

Charlotte being heavy at the core with low dense areas outside of the core (unlike Triangle) will likely just have M-F commuter service. 
 

I think mass transit should do more than get white collar workers to and from uptown M-F 

Edited June 21, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[Spartan]

On 6/14/2022 at 11:03 AM, kermit said:

So this proposal got my mind wandering a bit. What if:

• Vehicle size limitations on all of the Gold Line are fixed (making it a full LRT capacity line)
• The airport line is run from Belmont / airport to the east end of the Gold Line (Eastland?)
• The Matthews line is run to the west end of the Gold (French st or I-85)
• The Gold Line vehicles continue to operate as well

This strategy would:

• Maintain through service on the Gold
• Increase frequency on the Gold to a useful level for circulator service
• Force proper operation of the Gold w dedicated ROW and signal priority(so Silver schedules could be maintained)
• Have train turns happen only at locations that would not clog the network
• Make airport transfers easier for most folks (the airport would be a two seat ride for blue line riders instead of 3)

The downsides:

• The reliance on the Goldline would limit capacity on the Silver. It would become very difficult to ramp up frequencies or run 3 car trains
• Would introduce schedule volatility on the Silver

It's a good idea in principle, but interlining with the Gold Line would be essentially impossible. The platform heights are different, so you'd have to have a special area just for the streetcar vehicle, and the combined length probably wouldn't fit in one city block. Maybe you could alternate blocks, but when you start to look at alternating stop spacing along with real world factors like topo, parking garage access, turning lane requirements, etc. it gets real complicated real fast. You would also have to rebuild basically all of the tracks through uptown because the existing stops aren't designed to accommodate LRT vehicles.

The only way it could conceivable be interlined with Gold is if you close all of the interlined track portion of Trade/Elizabeth to ALL traffic. The tracks ARE designed to support the LRT vehicle weight, which is a plus, but good luck convincing the hotels and BofA to give up their parking access.

 

On 6/13/2022 at 7:58 PM, TCLT said:

So apparently CATS is now considering interlining the silver line with the blue line through uptown and creating a separate alignment for the airport portion likely terminating at gateway station. This seems like the worst of both worlds. It's also truly hard for me to believe the short portion skirting around Fourth Ward costs $1 billion.

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2022-06-13/cats-proposes-big-change-for-silver-line-route-through-uptown

 

This is incredibly dumb. ULI is supposed to be a force for good. I agree saving $$ is good, but surely there's a better way. Feels like cutting off your hand to spite your face. Operational hurdles, providing good service, and creating development opportunities should trump saving bankers in Matthews 5 minutes of walking. JMHO. So now the rich people get a direct shot into uptown but a worker going to the airport or to Matthews has to make two line changes. Feels like an equity issue to me. I'll also add that I'm not a huge fan of the dual hub system design for that reason, too.

The portion around uptown doesn't have to be elevated and you don't have to rebuild 11th St (which is what makes that section $1b). That's an engineering choice made to accommodate NCDOT. Change the stuff that affects the design factors and you can easily save a lot of $$.

 

On 6/14/2022 at 1:07 PM, kermit said:

There is not a good way to turn trains at Carson. Turning without blocking the normal operations of the Blue requires a third track where the turning train can be stopped off the 'main', the driver can change ends and perform a break test. Looking at google maps there is no space for such a track anywhere along the rail trail.

Turns will take a while, they will need to wait out a schedule buffer and/or driver rest period. Turns that take less than 5 minutes would be amazing for CATS, but I'll bet that most turns will take at least 10 minutes -- far too long to block operating tracks.

I agree that this plan is ridiculous.

Correct, which is one of many reasons why the original alignment was chosen.

[JRCLT]

I mean… I don’t know, but this seems very logical to me. If you’re asking about the weird turns it’s because 9th street gets weird after crossing the tracks in terms of practicality.

[KJHburg]

Meanwhile in our Capital City which is implementing Bus Rapid Transit you can track any bus in the Go Raleigh system.

https://www.goraleighlive.org/home

they are using their recovery funds to do this too

GoRaleigh

GoRaleigh fares have been suspended through June 30, 2023. 

[DMann]

Michael Gallis speaks his mind.  Clearly in the build rail for Development camp.  I know Michael and he is quite convincing.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/06/24/cats-michael-gallis-transit-plans.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=me&utm_content=CH&ana=e_CH_me&j=28164138&senddate=2022-06-24

[southslider]

Thankfully, Charlotte is becoming a large city when development more naturally happens around transit. In this way, Charlotte is blessed with timing, or to have not built out too much until development trends also shifted to be more urban. Still, Charlotte is also coming of age, when highways are not expanding as quickly and funding harder to come by.  I think this policy context means that transit should be designed around ridership first and minimize cost, while still incorporating good station area planning second.

[Hushpuppy321]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:45 AM, DMann said:

Michael Gallis speaks his mind.  Clearly in the build rail for Development camp.  I know Michael and he is quite convincing.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/06/24/cats-michael-gallis-transit-plans.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=me&utm_content=CH&ana=e_CH_me&j=28164138&senddate=2022-06-24

I like his take on the Mobility Plan being a “Transit Zoo”.  I wish Charlotte/CATS had focused on LightRail Build-Out 20 years ago instead of focusing on the StreetCar.  After that maybe BRT could’ve been a focus instead of the StreetCar too.  Just seems like the funding / construction hurdles are insurmountable at a time of very little federal grants & funding now.  SMH…..

[kayman]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:45 AM, DMann said:

Michael Gallis speaks his mind.  Clearly in the build rail for Development camp.  I know Michael and he is quite convincing.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/06/24/cats-michael-gallis-transit-plans.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=me&utm_content=CH&ana=e_CH_me&j=28164138&senddate=2022-06-24

*shrugs* Can he convince the City of Charlotte to give up CATS to form a fully-staffed regional transit authority with transportation professionals of various disciplines from transit, land use, real estate acquisition & management, environmental compliance, service planning, engineering, long-range planning, fleet/infrastructure  maintenance, and cerified transit vehicle operators? Expecting a COC department to act like a regional transit agency is a fools errand.

Yeah I didn't think so. If he's not trying to convince his competent colleagues & peers  to run and get more pro-urban state legislators elected to the state capitol in Raleigh then his criticisms are hollow. That's what's wrong with NCDOT, the NCGA doesn't want to properly fund it.  Most of his criticisms sound like armchair quarterbacking without any practical, politically doable solutions in this effed up, anti-urban, political environment.  

Edited June 26, 2022 by kayman

[tozmervo]

On 5/24/2022 at 8:47 AM, tozmervo said:

April slipped a little, almost entirely due to Local bus service. Not sure if there are regular seasonal affects in play (spring breaks, easter weekend, etc) without going back a lot further in ridership data. 

June ridership: (formatting with the ridership reports is a PITA, so you just get commentary this time)

Local bus routes continuing to drag down the system - 403k trips in May 2022 vs 473k in 2021, a 14.8% drop. By now everyone has heard the insanity with staffing, which is causing havoc in systems everywhere. Is that the only reason for the drop? Probably not, but I feel sure it's a massive part of the reason. 

Express routes continue to show really strong recovery, but still at just 27.7% of pre-covid totals (I can't find May 2019 data, so this is not exact. ridership usually dips a little in the summer). 

Blue Line is hovering around 51% of pre-covid totals.

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

June ridership: (formatting with the ridership reports is a PITA, so you just get commentary this time)

Local bus routes continuing to drag down the system - 403k trips in May 2022 vs 473k in 2021, a 14.8% drop. By now everyone has heard the insanity with staffing, which is causing havoc in systems everywhere. Is that the only reason for the drop? Probably not, but I feel sure it's a massive part of the reason. 

Express routes continue to show really strong recovery, but still at just 27.7% of pre-covid totals (I can't find May 2019 data, so this is not exact. ridership usually dips a little in the summer). 

Blue Line is hovering around 51% of pre-covid totals.

It seems like the Express routes and Blue Line will eventually hit a wall. Hybrid work seems here to stay for many large Uptown employers. Many people are only in the office 2 or 3 days a week at the big employers. Losing 2 days of commuting is an automatic 40% hit to ridership that will be tough to make up. I'd love if our system could evolve to support other types of trips people make besides just going to work... so transit is the first choice for going shopping, going to dinner, running an errand, going to see friends, et... 

It may even take some marketing efforts to get people to think of the Blue Line as more than a work shuttle or special events tool and show how people can use it to run an errand / go car-free.

Edited July 8, 2022 by CLT2014

[JHart]

Coming home NB from the Charlotte FC game last night and the trains had the wrong stations on the announcements and notification boards. We also sat at CTC for 5 minutes.

[JHart]

https://www.wbtv.com/2022/07/14/private-company-runs-cats-bus-operations-charlotte-leaders-didnt-know-that-until-this-story/

[rancenc]

15 minutes ago, JHart said:

https://www.wbtv.com/2022/07/14/private-company-runs-cats-bus-operations-charlotte-leaders-didnt-know-that-until-this-story/

OMG! Are the elected city leaders this clueless.  The employees of the city's transit system have been non city employees for decades.  This is why they can engage in collective bargaining and go on strike which is forbidden for any public sector employee in the state of NC.  I remember when they had a big strike back in the late 70s/early 80s and this arrangement was explain on why the transit employees can unionize and strike.  I was like in junior high then and understood the process then! 

Edited July 15, 2022 by rancenc

[CLT2014]

6 minutes ago, rancenc said:

OMG! Are the elected city leaders this clueless. 

Citizens keep electing the same people over and over too. To be fair though, it is a part time role to serve on city council, they only have 2 year terms so the council is hitting "reset" often, and it doesn't sound like CATS leadership (that has full time higher paid jobs than just being on council) has been particularly forthcoming / transparent about the relationship. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by CLT2014

[carolinaboy]

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

I have ideas that I'll keep to myself and see if they play out.

[videtur quam contuor]

The City bus service was a private business until 1976. Strikes were not unusual at that time. The city began operation and administration at that time though the provision for employees  remained with a third party due to the union-employee contract. The bus station was in 1st  Ward, close to First Ward School. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Area_Transit_System#:~:text=Trolleys operated in the city,until CATS' founding in 2000.

In addition, at that time the ambulance service was also a private operation. The ambulance dispatch station was on South Boulevard close to the Arlington current location. Ambulances would pull out of the business all hours of the day and night with sirens running and the nascent Dilworth organization made their displeasure known to the business as well as the city. Ability to pay for transport was an element of the response since it was a private business. Before the emergency response teams became hospital and Fire Department operations the ambulance location moved to East Boulevard, first block east of South where the Montessori school is now. Even more sirens in the neighborhood, can you imagine? Eventually the service was modernized into what we have today.

As an example of how long Charlotte remained a small city without the metropolitan nature we take for granted now, these issues hark to our not so distant past.

Edit: If I remember this there are many others who remember and some are in City and County administration and perhaps elected office.

Edited July 15, 2022 by tarhoosier

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

Citizens keep electing the same people over and over too. To be fair though, it is a part time role to serve on city council, they only have 2 year terms so the council is hitting "reset" often, and it doesn't sound like CATS leadership (that has full time higher paid jobs than just being on council) has been particularly forthcoming / transparent about the relationship. 

Maybe it's City Management as opposed to City Council. 

Something seems broken in how City Management briefs Council on the state of the union. 

Council (our Board of Directors) always appears to be scrambling or have gaps in knowledge.

Sure they're part-time, but I don't even see a mention of this 3rd party in the Financial Reports.  

I also wish the city used a 3rd party auditor to provide "performance metrics" or KPIs to Council for major departments funded by the City's Enterprise Funds.  Frankly, the Financial Reports are too sales-y.  All these glossy images and celebration of what's been done the past year.  Would rather know what needs improvement, where there are breakdowns in internal controls, and where various "enterprise" risks may reside.

Edited July 15, 2022 by RANYC

[kayman]

On 7/15/2022 at 12:10 PM, RANYC said:

Maybe it's City Management as opposed to City Council. 

Something seems broken in how City Management briefs Council on the state of the union. 

Council (our Board of Directors) always appears to be scrambling or have gaps in knowledge.

Sure they're part-time, but I don't even see a mention of this 3rd party in the Financial Reports.  

I also wish the city used a 3rd party auditor to provide "performance metrics" or KPIs to Council for major departments funded by the City's Enterprise Funds.  Frankly, the Financial Reports are too sales-y.  All these glossy images and celebration of what's been done the past year.  Would rather know what needs improvement, where there are breakdowns in internal controls, and where various "enterprise" risks may reside.

 

 

These two posts offer some serious insights into some possible solutions to these part-time city council and currently fortified from citizens' oversight city management and departmental setup. It's like the city management is untouchable under current municipal government setup. I've said for awhile now that Charlotte has long outgrown its council-manager form of municipal government. 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by kayman

[Desert Power]

Getting off the bus: How Charlotte lost 75% of its passengers in less than a decade

[Desert Power]

Just a lack of accountability all around:

Quote

In an interview, Graham was told CATS buses carried 23.9 million passengers in 2014.

“Do you have any idea how many they will carry this year?” he was asked.

Graham began thinking about the impact of the pandemic and estimated 15 million passengers.

He had no idea that it was 5.9 million.

Graham then asked: “Where did all the people go?”

It’s a critical question — and one that CATS hasn’t shown much interest in answering.

CATS Chief Executive John Lewis declined to be interviewed for this story.

In an interview in May, Jason Lawrence, a senior project manager for CATS, said that he wasn’t aware of the transit system studying why ridership dropped by one-third even before COVID-19.

“I don’t have an answer for you on that right now,” he said.

 

[CLT2014]

Wow....
"More than a quarter of bus routes cost CATS more than $20 per trip, meaning it would be cheaper to put many passengers in an Uber."

"For instance, crosstown route 28, which goes from the old Eastland Mall to South Park, cost $28.50 per trip. It had 764 scheduled departures in March and 1,958 total passengers."

I had no clue the bus system was SO messed up in Charlotte. Completely failing to get people to where they need to go and now starting to just burn money. The comment in the article about "progress" was interesting... like maybe declining ridership means more people have the funds to own a car and stop being trapped in their area reliant on buses to get them out?

Edited July 18, 2022 by CLT2014

[go_vertical]

How in the hell has John Lewis not been fired yet? 

[49er]

I would be interested in what cities are models for CLT. More specifically, cities with similar layouts and densities with high personal vehicle ownership or the ability to own one. How did they convince people to leave cars at home and serve those who cannot afford one or cannot drive due to age or other issues.  Is it a combination of a higher focus on commuter transit and micro transit/on demand shuttles where ridership is low or non existent? I don't reliability or frequency is the main issue. 

 

 

[Hushpuppy321]

Does anyone think that a Separate Regional Entity would have run the bus/transit system better than this City Dept. and if so why?  I was impressed on the buses/frequency when I first moved to CLT in 2013 but don’t know what has happened here.