CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

7 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

If commuter rail is never going to happen I'd rather we just give it up and go ahead with BRT red line in the near future. Would be sad if we hold off on both for years and years because of false hope for the train.

That said if Thrid Strike's idea for a parallel line could happen I'd prefer that. I just wonder if the cost would keep it from ever being realistic. Which makes me sad - other cities invested a lot in transit and there's no reason Charlotte can't too.

The BRT project is moving forward and I have the impression it is at the front of the line for projects. I don’t think anyone is planning to delay it for the possibility of the Red Line.

Its been years but a friend of mine was a member of the survey crew used for the original Red Line planning. While the ROW is supposed to be 100’, he had said there were a huge number of encroachments and, in many places getting that full 100’ back would probably be impossible. Its been years since I had that conversation, and he was a surveyor, not an attorney, so the standard disclaimers apply. 
 

[the rule of thumb for rail construction is 25 feet per track. NS would probably want to reserve space for 2 tracks for freight. When freight roads are being obstructionist they like to mandate another 25 ft for an access road in the middle of 4 tracks for maintenance. Given all this I don’t think there is room for a four track ROW that would be kosher for NS and their current plans.]

[15895]

2 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

If commuter rail is never going to happen I'd rather we just give it up and go ahead with BRT red line in the near future. Would be sad if we hold off on both for years and years because of false hope for the train.

That said if Thrid Strike's idea for a parallel line could happen I'd prefer that. I just wonder if the cost would keep it from ever being realistic. Which makes me sad - other cities invested a lot in transit and there's no reason Charlotte can't too.

Near certainty it'll be too cost prohibitive to expect the red line rail will be built without some sort of federal intervention/deal with Norfolk Southern or a massive political change of North Carolina, Mecklenburg county and Charlotte resembinlg that of  Virginia (historical record rail investments) & Colorado (huge big bang mass transit). 

One thing certain is, CATS and local officials (who apparently don't know much about CATS) need to be preparing for even the most unlikely scenarios of mass transit given the Infrastructure & Climate bill dollars that'll be floating around for several years. All I'd ask for is for a grade-separated heavy rail like Honolulu's (which is like a light heavy rail) from Matthews, 4 underground uptown stops, to the airport and Red Line. 7 day/week all day service red line up to Mooresville. That would be good for a generation. I'd even be fine with just a Heavy rail silver line... That shouldn't be pie-in-the-sky fantasy but even that feels like it's asking for way too much from the powers that be. I do have hope, but transit officials need to be realistically bold.  Imagine zooming 55 MPH down Independence... That is competitive with vehicle.

(The below is Honolulu's heavy rail for those who aren't familiar)

Edited August 1, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[Hushpuppy321]

Can someone that’s in ‘the know’ enlighten us about the Cost Per Mile of the current Streetcar vs The Blueline Light Rail?  Just curious if it’s similar and if the 4 or 5 Mile Extension to Ballantyne would’ve been better than the current 4 Mile Streetcar Line in Center City (Or if would’ve cost them same or similar)

[kermit]

^ Gold line was roughly 1/3 the per mile cost of the BLE.

Ballantyne extension might be marginally cheaper than the BLE depending on actual ROW costs (and no new vehicle storage or maintenance facility is required)

Edited August 12, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

Near certainty it'll be too cost prohibitive to expect the red line rail will be built without some sort of federal intervention/deal with Norfolk Southern or a massive political change of North Carolina, Mecklenburg county and Charlotte resembinlg that of  Virginia (historical record rail investments) & Colorado (huge big bang mass transit). 
One thing certain is, CATS and local officials (who apparently don't know much about CATS) need to be preparing for even the most unlikely scenarios of mass transit given the Infrastructure & Climate bill dollars that'll be floating around for several years. All I'd ask for is for a grade-separated heavy rail like Honolulu's (which is like a light heavy rail) from Matthews, 4 underground uptown stops, to the airport and Red Line. 7 day/week all day service red line up to Mooresville. That would be good for a generation. I'd even be fine with just a Heavy rail silver line... That shouldn't be pie-in-the-sky fantasy but even that feels like it's asking for way too much from the powers that be. I do have hope, but transit officials need to be realistically bold.  Imagine zooming 55 MPH down Independence... That is competitive with vehicle.
(The below is Honolulu's heavy rail for those who aren't familiar)

Hear this line is having some structural issues (HART).

[southslider]

The Silver Line will be able to travel much higher speeds than BLE just by not being in the middle of a road, but rather running along the side of expressways and on new alignments completely removed from slower speed roadways.

[kermit]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:01 AM, kermit said:

This was reported yesterday by WSOC. Hopefully this spurs some dramatic change at CATS:

Quote

CHARLOTTE — Channel 9 has learned Charlotte’s city manager is bringing in an outside team to do an organizational review of the Charlotte Area Transit System.

The move comes after weeks of driver shortages and system-wide delays have plagued the organization. CATS says at least 80 drivers have called out every day since the end of June....

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/memo-outside-team-will-review-cats-make-recommendations-stabilize-it/D76MUYKF2NERJLIOAW4WMIFVCU/

Over the past week I have spoken with two different city employees who regularly interact with CATS. The word from both of them was remarkably similar: CATS was described as a "dumpster fire from top to bottom"

Edited August 16, 2022 by kermit

[Durhamite]

5 hours ago, kermit said:

Over the past week I have spoken with two different city employees who regularly interact with CATS. The word from both of them was remarkably similar: CATS was described as a "dumpster fire from top to bottom"

Maybe, but what transit system isn’t?  Even amongst some of the more ballyhooed ones..do your own research, the apathy is not exclusive to CATs, by no means.

 Nothing works better than paying a bunch of people with slides and brief cases to solve a known problem….even a greater waste of money and time, good luck.

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/22621793/public-transit-funding-bipartisan-infrastructure-bill

Edited August 16, 2022 by Durhamite

[ertley]

16 hours ago, Durhamite said:

 Nothing works better than paying a bunch of people with slides and brief cases to solve a known problem….even a greater waste of money and time, good luck.

I may not agree with this absolutely, but I do think that rigid differentiation, segmentation or specialization in organizations is a prevalent issue that causes many, or even most, organizational problems.

If I were in charge--of an organization, or the world--I would mandate that all supervisors and managers must spend a day week--every week--doing the job of one of their subordinates. It wouldn't be the same job every week, it would be rotational, and rather than random hopefully strategic, and not some "Undercover Boss" sort of stunt, but a fundamental part of organizational and operational culture. I am convinced it would help eliminate the gap of understanding and appreciation between management and workers, with a fringe benefit that workers themselves would be induced to perform better, with the possibility that any given day a manager might show up to take over for them, or work beside them. 

I first formulated this theory during the one year--the worst year of my life--that I taught high school. I felt a HUGE problem in the school where I taught was that none of the administrators had been in a classroom for quite some time and had diminished appreciations for what teachers dealt with. (In this instance, I think every administrator should teach one class per semester or school year, rather than teaching for one day a week--and no cherry picking the best classes for them, but actually what happens to work best schedule-wise!)

We all know that there's plenty of wasted time in offices, and the time could be made for this, easily. 

[Durhamite]

4 hours ago, ertley said:

I may not agree with this absolutely, but I do think that rigid differentiation, segmentation or specialization in organizations is a prevalent issue that causes many, or even most, organizational problems.

If I were in charge--of an organization, or the world--I would mandate that all supervisors and managers must spend a day week--every week--doing the job of one of their subordinates. It wouldn't be the same job every week, it would be rotational, and rather than random hopefully strategic, and not some "Undercover Boss" sort of stunt, but a fundamental part of organizational and operational culture. I am convinced it would help eliminate the gap of understanding and appreciation between management and workers, with a fringe benefit that workers themselves would be induced to perform better, with the possibility that any given day a manager might show up to take over for them, or work beside them. 

I first formulated this theory during the one year--the worst year of my life--that I taught high school. I felt a HUGE problem in the school where I taught was that none of the administrators had been in a classroom for quite some time and had diminished appreciations for what teachers dealt with. (In this instance, I think every administrator should teach one class per semester or school year, rather than teaching for one day a week--and no cherry picking the best classes for them, but actually what happens to work best schedule-wise!)

We all know that there's plenty of wasted time in offices, and the time could be made for this, easily. 

Ok, but what does this have to with the entire public transit system in America being severely underfunded?  Leadership really is in a tough situation given people expect champagne operations on a Budweiser budget, it ain’t gonna happen.

[BJKM]

Sitting on the train now that was advised to drive slower because of a mechanical issue, and now we have to stay at a station while they move a disabled train off the tracks. Like come on CATS. They could screw up a wet dream at this point. 

[Desert Power]

23 hours ago, BJKM said:

Sitting on the train now that was advised to drive slower because of a mechanical issue, and now we have to stay at a station while they move a disabled train off the tracks. Like come on CATS. They could screw up a wet dream at this point. 

I'm sure their daily tweets announcing how many employees are absent and blaming that for their issues are a great labor recruitment tool.

[JRCLT]

Now, take this with a grain of salt but I start classes this morning on or UNC Charlotte’s routes on campus (which are not run by the university itself) has been cut due to staffing challenges. Whatever that means. It’s a redundant route and flows in the opposite direction of its “twin” route. So not sure what CATS is truly doing but this may be happening to other transit systems too so if anyone finds anything on staffing issues it may be something state or nationwide. Maybe even global since the pandemic. Not sure but thought I should share since some have been skeptical about CATS staffing excuse.

[tozmervo]

Oh, there's no question the labor issue is hitting transit systems across the country. What's less clear is if CATS is being affected more, less, or on average with other systems. CATS is also far from alone in seeing huge dives in bus ridership, but on that I think CATS is faring far worse than other systems. (I can't point to clear data on this, but that's my impression gleaning things from the internet)

Edit: Bus Driver Shortage Worsens Due to Aging Workforce, Lack of New Hires (businessinsider.com) (tl/dr 71% of transit systems had reduced service due to labor problems by July 21)

Edited August 22, 2022 by tozmervo

[CLT2014]

Starting pay to be an Amazon driver and a CATS bus driver are pretty much the same.... except a bus driver has to deal with the general public all day, crazy people, enforce paying fares, homelessness, et..... and an Amazon driver gets to play the music they want, drive a more nimble vehicle, be more active / less sedentary by stopping to get out of the van and walk, your routes aren't always the exact same so you have some variety in your day,  et.... There are definitely major downsides to Amazon and other delivery jobs as well, but it seems like they are having less of a challenge recruiting compared to public transit agencies. Amazon is just one of numerous companies competing with public transit agencies for job positions related to "driving." 

The general stigma Americans have against buses doesn't help either... entire generations of people have grown up seeing buses as only for the destitute, so driving one doesn't register as an appealing career to younger workers either.

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by CLT2014

[15895]

There’s a lot of bus systems where there is no stigma. I mean even CATS has bus routes that have no stigma including an entire sub segment of Express buses meant to cater to white collar workers even. Some cities rail transit is viewed with a stigma, in Charlotte it’s not. I think it depends. 

I think by far the biggest problem for CATS (including bus driver shortages) is that the bus system in Charlotte is largely impractical. I wouldn’t be surprised if zero posters on here that live in the Charlotte region use a bus more than once a week, much less daily. Much less than a combination of car/bus. 
 

Even areas where bus ridership seems it could be more popular, you have inadequate infrastructure. Who would want to run across Randolph for the bus? Even though it’s convenient to a Multifamily housing area. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

My first daily Blue Line commute in a while reminded me  why 20 minute frequencies suck so badly. While you can generally manage low frequencies for a twice a day work commute (but it adds significant risk of being late), you cannot easily do anything else along the way to work. Back in the pre covid days I would hop off the blue line at 7th st or U City (the Waffle House) for breakfast. But with 20 minute frequencies, that sort of stop comes with a HUGE time penalty. In essence the Blue Line is no longer usable as a circulator, which kinda trashes many of the economic development promises that come attached to transit development.

tldr: this sucks

[Madison Parkitect]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

There’s a lot of bus systems where there is no stigma. I mean even CATS has bus routes that have no stigma including an entire sub segment of Express buses meant to cater to white collar workers even. Some cities rail transit is viewed with a stigma, in Charlotte it’s not. I think it depends. 

I think by far the biggest problem for CATS (including bus driver shortages) is that the bus system in Charlotte is largely impractical. I wouldn’t be surprised if zero posters on here that live in the Charlotte region use a bus more than once a week, much less daily. Much less than a combination of car/bus. 
 

Even areas where bus ridership seems it could be more popular, you have inadequate infrastructure. Who would want to run across Randolph for the bus? Even though it’s convenient to a Multifamily housing area. 

My car has been in the shop for two months now so I've been taking the bus and I actually like it enough that I may keep taking it even after I get the car back, but I have an express bus stop right outside my neighborhood and it goes right into the middle of uptown, so it's an easy right for me. The most complicated part is that there's only two busses in the morning, like literally there's one at 7 and one at 7:45, and then you're out of luck after that. 

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I think by far the biggest problem for CATS (including bus driver shortages) is that the bus system in Charlotte is largely impractical. I wouldn’t be surprised if zero posters on here that live in the Charlotte region use a bus more than once a week, much less daily. Much less than a combination of car/bus. 

I use an express bus route typically 4 of 5 days each week, often all work days. I'm about a 12 minute walk from a stop. It's dramatically more pleasant than driving in. 

[videtur quam contuor]

delete.

posted in proper thread

Edited August 22, 2022 by tarhoosier

[jthomas]

Jason Slaughter of Not Just Bikes was recently a guest on the Strong Towns podcast, and he made a statement that really resonated with me. In contrasting North American public transportation with that of the Netherlands (where he lives), he said that systems in North America are "disrespectful" to their riders. In other words, the quality of service and infrastructure provided to transit users is so low that it communicates a complete lack of regard for their comfort, time, and experience. I think the last few comments in this thread really illustrate that point well.

It's disrespectful to riders to offer a service that only runs twice in a day.

It's disrespectful to riders to force them to cross a busy four-lane stroad (without a crosswalk!) just so they can stand next to a metal pole to wait on the bus.

It's disrespectful to taxpayers to build a multibillion-dollar rail line, and then not run enough trains to make it useful as a transportation option.

This is obviously not just a Charlotte problem (Charlotte is light years ahead of us here in Greensboro) - it's a pervasive attitude continent-wide. The whole episode is great and well worth a listen. I don't know that there is a great answer, other than getting as many people as possible to stand up and loudly say that the status quo is not acceptable.

Edited August 22, 2022 by jthomas

[kermit]

Not in Charlotte but still relevant…

The 24 mile IndyGo Blue Line BRT (Indianapolis’ proposed second BRT route) has doubled in cost to $500 million as it progressed from 30% to 60% engineering. This is approaching the cost of LRT, yet it provides less capacity, less economic development and would still be impacted by roadway congestion on portions of the route.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-news/marion-county/indygo-blue-line-bus-rapid-transit-cost-more-than-doubles-indygo-reevaluating

Edited August 25, 2022 by kermit

[Reverie39]

5 minutes ago, kermit said:

Not in Charlotte but still relevant…

The 24 mile IndyGo Blue Line BRT (Indianapolis’ proposed second BRT route) has doubled in cost to $500 million as it progressed from 30 to 60% engineering. This is approaching the cost of LRT, yet it would still be impacted by roadway congestion on portions of the route.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-news/marion-county/indygo-blue-line-bus-rapid-transit-cost-more-than-doubles-indygo-reevaluating

That is really sad to hear considering I imagine LRT would have far greater carrying capacity. Yikes. I hope whatever caused this is identified and not repeated for Charlotte's Lake Norman BRT.

[kermit]

On 8/25/2022 at 11:48 AM, Reverie39 said:

That is really sad to hear considering I imagine LRT would have far greater carrying capacity. Yikes. I hope whatever caused this is identified and not repeated for Charlotte's Lake Norman BRT.

I believe much of the increased cost is for drainage improvements and moving utilities along the route. N Meck BRT will run in the I-77 toll lanes so should avoid most of this. While I am a BRT skeptic due to capacity and impermanence, I think the N Meck project is a pretty good one thanks to its leveraging of existing infrastructure (it will provide faster service than the Red Line could and can serve a different uptown terminus should the Red Line ever appear).

Edited August 26, 2022 by kermit

[tozmervo]

4 hours ago, kermit said:

Not in Charlotte but still relevant…

The 24 mile IndyGo Blue Line BRT (Indianapolis’ proposed second BRT route) has doubled in cost to $500 million as it progressed from 30% to 60% engineering. This is approaching the cost of LRT, yet it provides less capacity, less economic development and would still be impacted by roadway congestion on portions of the route.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-news/marion-county/indygo-blue-line-bus-rapid-transit-cost-more-than-doubles-indygo-reevaluating

I would also caution that there's every reason to believe the silver line will jump 30-50% the next time we hear a cost estimate. Inflation in the construction materials market is a sinister reality and I don't think we've begun to see fallout yet.