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CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines


monsoon

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Maybe we can convert the Transit Center (With parts of Trade street) to a hub rail and bus station. And we have Blue line North, Blue line South, Silver Line East, Silver Line West all departing from this station and you can transfer to another vehicle in door.

Plus you can engineer your time table so there is just enough time for you to cache another train departing to other direction with out much waiting.

This can probably also help on time performance than running a 30-40 mile long trip.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, TheMightyBK said:

Coming from Baltimore, I will just suggest that Charlotte should DEFINITELY continue to separate grades. Trains and cars should not intersect, like ever. emoji1308.png


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On the other hand, most of those cities also have a heavy rail too (and as you know in the case of Baltimore, all day/all week commuter train) . I never used Baltimore’s heavy rail metro. But. I’m definitely pro Charlotte getting a heavy rail east/west line. Though it feels like a total waste of breathe to even advocate such a thing. 

The only reason we are at all probably discussing/debating the alignment so heavily is literally all driven on being what is the absolute cheapest way to build a transit line. I continue to stand by there’s plenty of money to build a transit line that Charlotte merits…but I digress. 

All of the alignments seem to have a tinge of grasping at straws for the lowest cost possible. And I think a fatal flaw to ridership is cutting corners. The gold line got such momentum mostly because it seemed out of reach to get an east/west rail connection and the only tools we had were federal grants and city funding for Streercar. I feel like several cities for Streercar fever as a way to build rail without the help of the state. But a lot of those just set transit back IMO. Because even most of the Streetcar systems were built too cheap. Too cheap, too short to ever succeed. 

My preference would be underground completely in uptown with the blue route below.  

11839C71-7E08-45E3-BBA6-8203C9BFCEE6.thumb.jpeg.cba04cf24fe93a482a32940c29b12284.jpeg

Edited by AirNostrumMAD
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Gold Line option still requires too much reconstruction of relatively new tracks, including entire blocks between Caldwell and Pine Streets. The tracks between College and Church Street would need to be rebuilt to the middle of Trade Street. Overhead electric lines would need to go across Tryon Street and the Square. Silver Line would have fewer stations than Gold Line. Operationally, Gold Line would also have to yield to a more reliable Silver Line at their junctions whenever Gold Line was delayed by parked cars or other mixed-traffic problems on its outer segments to French St and Sunnyside. For similar reasons, stations only served by Gold Line wouldn't be an option where the two lines overlapped, thus those would be consolidated and farther spaced when rebuilt in Uptown.  Finally, for all the traffic impact concerns with interlining Blue Line at the limited grade crossings, Gold Line would remain entirely at grade with a lot more grade crossings for motorists to be stopped for trains.

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So concerns of gold line performance now and it’s reflection on interlining:

It’s all about preemption. If the silver line were to be interlined I wouldn’t (personally) accept it without two main things:

1. Preemption: priority and the traffic lights would reflect as such (like North Tryon and BLE).

2. Dedicated ROW: to avoid cars sharing the ROW for safety and reliability reasons.

I think everyone is missing the point. Of course!! No one on here wants the Silver Line sharing the ROW with cars, it wouldn’t make sense and would make the part more street car than anything if that were the case.

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Just spitballing here:
Environmental audits are being done on the north rail yard expansion this week, seeing the size of this space I am left to wonder; would it make sense for CATS to ‘move’ it’s tracks into the new real estate so that the land where the tracks sit now could be sold off for development?
I don’t have a good sense of the costs (or revenues) involved here but since the land was used as a rail yard it should be trouble free for new track construction. In addition, the thing that makes this patch of land ‘out of play’ for development is the tracks isolated it. Perhaps CATS really is the owner that can get the most value outbid this land?
Necessary Yard space for CATS is also something I am fuzzy on. It certainly looks like there would be room for several new storage tracks even after shifting the Blue Line towards Tryon. I also suspect a yard could be built (and would be needed) adjacent to 485 if the BLE-E gets built.
I dunno, just seems like there is an opportunity here for some infill, more ridership and for CATS to potentially make a few bucks. 
The cost of building the new tracks would be a pretty perfect item for a TIGER grant (whatever it’s called now) application if it were packaged with the freed up land  being targeted for affordable housing.
EDIT: Something like this (but better)
image.png.fe4e5772c4c4d74a53da9552d1fbf43c.png
Red is relocated Blue Line tracks
Mustard Yellow is new yard tracks (they could potentially expand down into the greenspace?)
Highlighted yellow is land freed up for development (current Blue Line tracks are on the bottom edge of the highlighting
Operationally, this could eliminate the curve at 16th and would add a curve at the yard building resulting in no net loss of speed.

Moving the tracks may not be necessary, this land doesn’t have to be inaccessible and access could be placed off 16th street. Far cheaper than moving tracks. Development could then flank the station on the other side as well. Moving the line would move it further from the people who already live next to it. It also kind of fuzzies up the idea of permanence albeit it isn’t moving relatively very far. Though from a station standpoint the most efficient way of providing service and being convenient is radial service area which is better if it’s filled on all directions.
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11 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I think everyone is missing the point. Of course!! No one on here wants the Silver Line sharing the ROW with cars, it wouldn’t make sense and would make the part more street car than anything if that were the case.

But that's exactly my point. Silver Line needs to operate more like Blue Line through Uptown. So rather than invest a lot more cost in rebuilding Gold Line to operate like Blue Line, just use the already perfectly built Blue Line.

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But that's exactly my point. Silver Line needs to operate more like Blue Line through Uptown. So rather than invest a lot more cost in rebuilding Gold Line to operate like Blue Line, just use the already perfectly built Blue Line.

Interlining the with the blue line just doesn’t make any sense from what the line is meant to connect. Connecting the two with the blue line still presents a very convoluted transition and then once the silver line ends what do the trains do? Where do they turn back towards Matthew’s? (Unless the train just keeps traveling Down to 485 but then the silver would seem more a large spur of the blue line). What about to the airport? Clearly it would benefit from having that connection due to the crowding. Construction has exaggerated the effects but even without it, it would probably still be busy and crowed to some degree for drop off and pick up. How would it connect back to uptown where the hotels are and the center of culture for Charlotte?

Although, I’d still prefer the alignment through first ward center on 9th street or preferably 10th St. Perhaps lose the whole of 10th St. in first ward since it’s been a struggle to connect anyways and would appease the residents who want a station there anyways. Run it right next to 9th street station for an easy walk between the two stations and make for see less transfer and perhaps shelter the two stations (several ways to shelter this). Everyone seems reluctant to get rid of a street for a line or may not want at what would be their door step. Would cost less than bridging it over all of uptown, would do the same as interlining it with the gold line without interlining them. Would secure the literal most perfect transfer possible without putting the stations directly side by side parallel to one another. It would still go up fourth ward and provide service to this neighborhood and connect to gateway and on to the airport.
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The nice thing about interlining with Gold in a dedicated ROW on Trade St. is that it effectively acts as a major upgrade of Gold too. Charlotte would have three major rail lines (no actual streetcars) running through Uptown, separated from traffic completely. That is an awesome outcome - the list of cities that could say the same is pretty small if my memory is correct.

Specifically also when the plan for phase three is heading in a ROW direction.
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Strange that the biggest complaints against interlining Blue Line with Silver Line are 1. missing Gateway and 2. traffic impacts, when 1. Gold Line would still serve Gateway, and 2. if Silver Line interlined with Gold Line, then every intersection of Trade St would have those same traffic impacts, compared with far fewer Blue Line crossings.

Edited by southslider
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13 hours ago, DMann said:

I guess you haven't seen 7th Street at afternoon rush hour/

Just wait until you see Trade St at Charlottetowne, Kings, McDowell, Caldwell, College, Church, or Graham with Silver Line.

17 hours ago, kermit said:

I agree that part of the  appeal of interlining Silver and Gold is making the Gold Line into useful transit. This is absolutely something that would be cheaper to do by just running the Gold at appropriate frequencies. 

Not cheaper than not investing another dime on Gold Line. North Mecklenburg voters, South Charlotte voters, and especially surrounding counties' voters would rather see Charlotte not spend so much on streetcars phase after phase after phase. 

Edited by southslider
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45 minutes ago, kermit said:
1 hour ago, southslider said:

Not cheaper than not investing another dime on Gold Line. North Mecklenburg voters, South Charlotte voters, and especially surrounding counties' voters would rather see Charlotte not spend so much on streetcars phase after phase after phase. 

Its true there is no way to ever make the Gold Line a popularity contest winner.

Make it a dedicated ROW through town, have accurate tracking, and increased frequencies would do it. Basic stuff really.

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On 10/28/2022 at 3:10 PM, XRZ.ME said:

Maybe we can convert the Transit Center (With parts of Trade street) to a hub rail and bus station. And we have Blue line North, Blue line South, Silver Line East, Silver Line West all departing from this station and you can transfer to another vehicle in door.

Plus you can engineer your time table so there is just enough time for you to cache another train departing to other direction with out much waiting.

This can probably also help on time performance than running a 30-40 mile long trip.

 

 

This is an intriguing idea that makes some amount of sense in my amateur opinion, though it spits in the face of all the planning and work done so far at Gateway.

I'm gonna set the (many) engineering points aside for this and go back to what I think I remember being a major reason why CATS/city planners did NOT pursue this strategy years ago: They felt the CTC area of Uptown was congested enough as is and preferred to bring the new commuters and development opportunities to a cheaper and less dense part of Uptown. Thus, we got Gateway. They could link in Amtrak (which badly needs new infrastructure) this way too.

Also, at the time, I think there was greater optimism (naive perhaps) that Norfolk Southern would play ball, and the red line north could link in alongside Amtrak.

Feel free to correct me here. I wanna say this was a conversation maybe back in 2017 or so.

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PSA Reminder

CATS LYNX Silver Line Light Rail Survey and Chance to Win Visa Gift Card Nov. 1–17 (charlottenc.gov)

Reminder, the LYNX Silver Line public comment period begins today! Your input helps inform project decisions so it is important we hear from you.

How Can You Participate?

Join one of the public meetings:

 

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When that scrap mill was Florida Steel Drum years ago I drove north on 115 and happened to look left as I passed the large open doors on the track side of the building. At that instant the crucible was pouring molten steel and the bright orange glare struck me from 150 yards away. Washed over me and affected my rods and cones for a few seconds. Only time it happened to me.

Not the same sensation but of memory when I was at Mt Washington in Pittsburgh one night in 1967 and the furnaces were opened at Jones and Laughlin on the riverfront and the orange flew off the river and up the hillside and made night to day for fifteen seconds. Never forget that one.

Edited by tarhoosier
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