CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

You’ll definitely hear DC people complain and they could’ve done a 3rd rail for express service but too would’ve been complicated and super costly to triple track from DC or Rosslyn to Dulles and starting a third track at East Falls (where it goes above ground) 

Personally I don't get the complaints. DC folks are privileged enough to have all three of their airports be accessible via rail. Very few cities in North America have that type of luxury in terms of airport access. The posted travel time from Metro Center to Dulles is only 53 minutes...faster than Midtown to JFK on public transit and with less transfers, and essentially the same travel time from Midtown to LGA on public transit.

FWIW, Metro is studying an Express-style service for the Silver Line:

Frankly the concept makes no sense (and would likely come at the expense of Orange Line and Silver Line "local" trains) and was just put out publicly to show how silly/stupid the concept is. 

If Metro really wanted to decrease travel times, they would run trains at speed limits (all of the Silver Line west of East Falls Church is permits operations of 75 mph and has high-speed crossovers, the two bored underwater tunnels under the Potomac also permit high-speed operation of 65 mph IIRC) and return to ATO systemwide. 

Off topic, but I thought the slide provided a good explanation as how how an express-style service really doesn't work on a two-track system. Years and years ago, LA Metro attempted an express service during peak hours on the Gold Line that failed miserably. 

[kermit]

I have had fun reading this thread today. I will say that much of today's discussion has reminded me:

1) Cites like DC (and other top tier places) fudgeed up by not building better transit 50-100 years ago (e.g. triple track to Dulles, no commuter rail into Union Station from the Dulles area, Metro core capacity limitations, no Golden Gate crossing for BART, no land use planning for MARTA, etc.). Now it is clearly impossible to retrofit those important things

2) Charlotte is cheap, too cheap to build decent transit. So we will certainly be in the same position as DC and SF and Atlanta in the future ("damn, why didn't we build a Trade st tunnel when it would have been so easy (and cheap) back in 2025?"). Charlotte is seriously gonna regret not tunneling the Silver Line under Trade st (or 4th or 5th or whatever).

3) We (the City, County, CATS, the Region and the state) are idiots. Our lack of bold action is going to a) cost us money; b) limit our growth; c) make everyone more aggravated when we have to live in a city with inadequate infrastructure. We need to suck it up and build properly for the future (alternatively we can call it a day and accept that we will slide to become more like Greensboro)

Edited November 13, 2022 by kermit

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

I have had fun reading this thread today. I will say that much of today's discussion has reminded me:

1) Cites like DC (and other top tier places) fudgeed up by not building better transit 50-100 years ago (e.g. triple track to Dulles, no commuter rail into Union Station from the Dulles area, Metro core capacity limitations, no Golden Gate crossing for BART, no land use planning for MARTA, etc.). Now it is clearly impossible to retrofit those important things

2) Charlotte is cheap, too cheap to build decent transit. So we will certainly be in the same position as DC and SF and Atlanta in the future ("damn, why didn't we build a Trade st tunnel when it would have been so easy (and cheap) back in 2025?"). Charlotte is seriously gonna regret not tunneling the Silver Line under Trade st (or 4th or 5th or whatever).

3) We (the City, County, CATS, the Region and the state) are idiots. Our lack of bold action is going to a) cost us money; b) limit our growth; c) make everyone more aggravated when we have to live in a city with inadequate infrastructure. We need to suck it up and build properly for the future.

I don't think you can categorize DC/Metro within the same group as  SF/BART and Atlanta/MARTA in terms of overall "failures". Metro has been way more successful in terms of ridership, TOD, and overall impact to the region. BART and MARTA are poorly designed systems IMO, with BART being much worse than MARTA in my eyes. During construction, BART largely used existing rights of way leading to awkward physical station locations. TOD is virtually non-existent...

Metro is taking steps to improve access to the region's core. Immediately before the pandemic, they launched a exploratory project and public outreach study to improve capacity on Blue/Orange/Silver (BOS) Lines. Metro released project alternatives last summer. They were supposed to select a LPA by the end of 2022, but the 7K train debacle largely put the BOS project on the back burner, and rightly so. 

This is the alternative that will likely be selected based on it's overall positive cost-benefit analysis:

It would largely involve separating the Blue Line downtown via a new Potomac Tunnel between Rosslyn and Georgetown. I think it has a very likely chance of being built, but it will be a colossal undertaking and likely be a decades upon decades long project. 

In response to (2) I am not sure why CATS is so against tunneling, when other cities (Dallas, Austin, Seattle, Portland) have somewhat embraced it and are either constructing/planning/discussing tunneling projects for their LRT systems. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by LKN704

[Reverie39]

Fantastic answers to my questions and great discussion all round. Lots that Charlotte should be trying to learn to emulate/avoid from these other cities as it grows. Thanks guys

By the way, I'm not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but I just found this awesome resource for transit lines, both existing and proposed:

https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/transitexplorer/#11/35.2714/-80.9006

It has systems from all around the country and world, including Charlotte's existing proposals for Silver and Red lines as well as the Triangle commuter rail. Great for comparing these with what we find in other cities. I have always been annoyed that Google Maps doesn't show LYNX routes and also pretty much only shows rapid transit, no commuter rail.

[15895]

4 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

Fantastic answers to my questions and great discussion all round. Lots that Charlotte should be trying to learn to emulate/avoid from these other cities as it grows. Thanks guys

By the way, I'm not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but I just found this awesome resource for transit lines, both existing and proposed:

https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/transitexplorer/#11/35.2714/-80.9006

It has systems from all around the country and world, including Charlotte's existing proposals for Silver and Red lines as well as the Triangle commuter rail. Great for comparing these with what we find in other cities. I have always been annoyed that Google Maps doesn't show LYNX routes and also pretty much only shows rapid transit, no commuter rail.

That’s a cool website. 
 

The last thing I want to say for now is a short quip that the Lynx Blue Line (especially the OG segment) was a model for many cities on successful future lines as other cities looked to for inspiration on their light rails. It had ample state & federal support. We need to invest sufficient $ into mass transit. 

 that’s it. Thanks for sharing that cool website 

Edited November 13, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[Desert Power]

16 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Signal priority is CDOTs jurisdiction CATS can’t go and set up the signals as if they own the roads, because they don’t. CDOT is the entity standing in the way of CATS, CATS WANTS signal priority. With the silver line it’s essentially a guarantee the gold line will get priority

10 hours ago, MarcoPolo said:

  The concerns about car traffic mixing with the line are irrelevant.   Separating the two is not rocket science.

Sorry, but I don't think we can take this assumption as a given. Charlotte has to demonstrate that trains on Trade Street works BEFORE asking taxpayers for billions to add another one.  I agree these are all solvable issues. They could be solved right now, yet I get notifications of delays due to cars on the tracks daily. We have to actually make progress on solving them if we expect any of this to pass in an election.

[Nathan2]

On 11/13/2022 at 1:40 AM, Desert Power said:

Sorry, but I don't think we can take this assumption as a given. Charlotte has to demonstrate that trains on Trade Street works BEFORE asking taxpayers for billions to add another one.  I agree these are all solvable issues. They could be solved right now, yet I get notifications of delays due to cars on the tracks daily. We have to actually make progress on solving them if we expect any of this to pass in an election.

Especially since they are going to have to deal with 11 parking garage entrances and a possible bus station on trade St. through uptown. Cars will never be out of the equation for trade street. 

[NcSc74]

On 11/12/2022 at 6:07 PM, kermit said:

I have had fun reading this thread today. I will say that much of today's discussion has reminded me:

1) Cites like DC (and other top tier places) fudgeed up by not building better transit 50-100 years ago (e.g. triple track to Dulles, no commuter rail into Union Station from the Dulles area, Metro core capacity limitations, no Golden Gate crossing for BART, no land use planning for MARTA, etc.). Now it is clearly impossible to retrofit those important things

2) Charlotte is cheap, too cheap to build decent transit. So we will certainly be in the same position as DC and SF and Atlanta in the future ("damn, why didn't we build a Trade st tunnel when it would have been so easy (and cheap) back in 2025?"). Charlotte is seriously gonna regret not tunneling the Silver Line under Trade st (or 4th or 5th or whatever).

3) We (the City, County, CATS, the Region and the state) are idiots. Our lack of bold action is going to a) cost us money; b) limit our growth; c) make everyone more aggravated when we have to live in a city with inadequate infrastructure. We need to suck it up and build properly for the future (alternatively we can call it a day and accept that we will slide to become more like Greensboro)

I agree and honestly this argument can be made for all of NC except the Triad region for whatever reason. I just read an article where the civic leaders in Wilmington lament that the state did not secure funding for a new CapeFear crossing 20 years ago when they knew the current memorial bridge was coming due for major repairs. NC still has that Rip van Winkle thinking that stiffled growth for most of the 19th and 20th centuries. Low and behold, they are making the same mistakes. IMO, Charlotte should be an example of how to build a futureristc city. But we all know that wont happen until 50 years from now, smh.

Tampa, where I resde now, is slowly choking itself due to traffic and literally no transit options. I live in South Bay area 20 miles from DT and we dont venture to Tampa proper during the weekdays between 1100 to 6 pm. Traffic is nuts.  At least you guys have some kind of passenger/transit rail service. We can't even get a transit tax increase  passed to fund meager upgrades to bus routes. Raleigh sould take notice as well and build transit now not later. More lanes equal more traffic. It has been proven.

We can't take it anymore; with the hurricanes, insane insurance cost and god awful traffic we are selling our house and moving to rural Cumberland or Brunswick county in 2024. Finlly coming home and I can't wait.

[TheMightyBK]

BREAKING! The Silver Line is now open! Sadly, only in DC…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kayman]

On 11/12/2022 at 8:39 AM, JeanClt said:

You make it sounds like this type of alignment is rare in city centers and as if it is redundant? This would increase the frequency to half the wait time of whatever the silver and the gold line would be at. Signal priority is CDOTs jurisdiction CATS can’t go and set up the signals as if they own the roads, because they don’t. CDOT is the entity standing in the way of CATS, CATS WANTS signal priority. With the silver line it’s essentially a guarantee the gold line will get priority. At the very least for the section that gold and silver share. Silver line LPA I’d argue doesn’t go through uptown. It’s stuck between a highway and another road way up on a bridge. Sure reliability when grade separated, but at the cost of accessibility and little interaction with the area around it. You need look no further than the blue line. Look at the development (since you mentioned development on North Tyron uptown) around stations that are high above grade and bounded by tracks (similar effect to what 277 would cause) versus those that are not elevated and see the difference in development. With the exception of 36th st since it is at the “center” of a growing neighborhood, and isn’t entirely isolated like the other blue line stations such as Tyvola and not nearly as isolated as the elevated silver line would be.

I’ve said this before many times and I’ll say if there was a better way of getting the line at grade and not elevated at least not elevated stations that went through somewhere other than trade in the same orientation (i.e. not the blue line interlining) then I would totally support it too.

I've given my remarks already and stand firm by them.  The LPA is better overall and I've said that to CATS in my professional capacity. 

[kayman]

On 11/12/2022 at 7:12 PM, LKN704 said:

I don't think you can categorize DC/Metro within the same group as  SF/BART and Atlanta/MARTA in terms of overall "failures". Metro has been way more successful in terms of ridership, TOD, and overall impact to the region. BART and MARTA are poorly designed systems IMO, with BART being much worse than MARTA in my eyes. During construction, BART largely used existing rights of way leading to awkward physical station locations. TOD is virtually non-existent...

Metro is taking steps to improve access to the region's core. Immediately before the pandemic, they launched a exploratory project and public outreach study to improve capacity on Blue/Orange/Silver (BOS) Lines. Metro released project alternatives last summer. They were supposed to select a LPA by the end of 2022, but the 7K train debacle largely put the BOS project on the back burner, and rightly so. 

This is the alternative that will likely be selected based on it's overall positive cost-benefit analysis:

It would largely involve separating the Blue Line downtown via a new Potomac Tunnel between Rosslyn and Georgetown. I think it has a very likely chance of being built, but it will be a colossal undertaking and likely be a decades upon decades long project. 

In response to (2) I am not sure why CATS is so against tunneling, when other cities (Dallas, Austin, Seattle, Portland) have somewhat embraced it and are either constructing/planning/discussing tunneling projects for their LRT systems. 

CATS acts as a department of the City of Charlotte (CoC). As a result, they are LAZY and inefficient. This is another reason why I would demand that they spinoff and be more aligned with the county (Mecklenburg County) since that's the primary service area for local and express bus routes and paratransit (STS). That way it would act more as a public transit authority that fully represents the primary service area (the Meck County transit sales tax is their primary source of funds). 

[JRCLT]

I've given my remarks already and stand firm by them.  The LPA is better overall and I've said that to CATS in my professional capacity. 

Then no matter what I say or present to you will change your view of the LPA and the opportunity that arises when straying away from the easy way and the most isolating design in terms of station access and ground level interaction. (Simply stating facts here and no opinions). There is no reason to further discuss this topic (at least with you) if you stand firm (closed to input and the consideration of those inputs) on your view of the LPA and it’s apparent superiority to other alignments.

[kayman]

15 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Then no matter what I say or present to you will change your view of the LPA and the opportunity that arises when straying away from the easy way and the most isolating design in terms of station access and ground level interaction. (Simply stating facts here and no opinions). There is no reason to further discuss this topic (at least with you) if you stand firm (closed to input and the consideration of those inputs) on your view of the LPA and it’s apparent superiority to other alignments.

Yep! I represent the transit riders of all types not just local but regional and visitors (to and from the CLT Airport) . They should have a grade separated rail transit ride that is ADA accessible with all the infrastructure and amenities,  and the ability to induce more TOD, walkable and scalable development throughout all of Uptown not just along Trade Street. The Gold Line is already there.  Interlining and at-grade crossings is cheap, value engineering, and pure garbage. This city is getting too dense for more at-grade light rail transit unless it's going to be streetcar.  The Silver Line doesn't need to be at grade anywhere.  I'm long past TIRED of everyone always value engineering because they are afraid of the NC GOP naysayers and apolitical skeptics.  

This APTA & ULI induced nonsense is why it's going be nearly another decade before we move forward with the LYNX Silver Line. 

They need to do right by this rapidly densely, developed major city and metropolitan area.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by kayman

[ajfunder]

23 minutes ago, kayman said:

Yep! I represent the transit riders of all types not just local but regional and visitors (to and from the CLT Airport) . They should have a grade separated rail transit ride that is ADA accessible with all the infrastructure and amenities the ability to induce more TOD, walkable and scalable development throughout all of Uptown not just along Trade Street. The Gold Line is already there.  Interlining and at-grade crossings is cheap, value engineering, and pure garbage. This city is getting too dense for more at-grade light rail transit unless it's going to be streetcar.  The Silver Line doesn't need to be at grade anywhere.  I'm long past TIRED of everyone always value engineering because they are afraid of the NC GOP naysayers and apolitical skeptics.  

This APTA & ULI induced nonsense is why it's going be nearly another decade before we move forward with the LYNX Silver Line. 

They need to do right by this rapidly densely, developed major city and metropolitan area.

 

Just rode Vancouver’s SkyTrain system this week. Completely grade separated, scaleable (some lines only have two car trains), and completely automated. I was impressed. I wish the US would look at more systems like this.

[Reverie39]

2 hours ago, ajfunder said:

Just rode Vancouver’s SkyTrain system this week. Completely grade separated, scaleable (some lines only have two car trains), and completely automated. I was impressed. I wish the US would look at more systems like this.

For added context, Vancouver's metro population is nearly identical to Charlotte's. So it's an excellent example of what should be possible in Charlotte.

[Madison Parkitect]

I'd love to have Vancouver level transit here, but Charlotte and Vancouver are in no way comparable. Vancouver is literally twice as dense as Charlotte.

[kermit]

23 hours ago, Madison Parkitect said:

I'd love to have Vancouver level transit here, but Charlotte and Vancouver are in no way comparable. Vancouver is literally twice as dense as Charlotte.

We can’t  really become dense while car dependent.

Vancouver had massive advantages for its densificaiton. Its location on a dramatic coastline, along with mountains prevented unlimited sprawl. Combine the physical landscape with a flood of very wealthy immigrants from Hong Kong who prefer to live at moderately high densities in the late 1990s and you have a perfect storm for building a dense urban area.

So yea, Charlotte and Vancouver are very different, but that is no reason to give us a pass on transit development. We are not going to get any more sustainable by just shrugging and saying 'we are different’ we need to work harder than that.

Edited November 18, 2022 by kermit

[CLT2014]

The City of Vancouver (core of their metro) has a population of 662,248 in a land area that is roughly the same size as the town limits of Huntersville.... population 61,376. Imagine 60% of all of Mecklenburg County's ~1 million people fitting in just tiny Huntersville!

While our metro populations are similar.... we are so much more low density right now that we need hundreds of more miles of rail transit to be as close to where our sprawling population lives as Vancouver. The Silver Line would bring us to having a rail system even LONGER than the total Vancouver SkyTrain, but due to our low density we'll barely have scratched the surface of providing stations close to where our current population lives. Unfortunately due to our low density... we are trying to appease all Mecklenburg tax payers being asked to fund rail by spreading the stations across the metro to replace the current jobs of highways (i.e. getting from Matthews to Uptown).... which has already been done in cities like Dallas and Sacramento. None of those methods typically result in the booming ridership of fast and frequent service in an urban core as you pretty much use this type of rail routing for work / events in the core. You don't ride those type of rail routes to run an errand, take your kids to school, get groceries, et... like in Vancouver. Our sprawling rail needs will also be WAAY more expensive to build than Vancouver (because realistically we probably need 100+ miles rail to truly serve our region with people giving up their car for errands / daily life).

Edited November 17, 2022 by CLT2014

[JRCLT]

Yep! I represent the transit riders of all types not just local but regional and visitors (to and from the CLT Airport) . They should have a grade separated rail transit ride that is ADA accessible with all the infrastructure and amenities,  and the ability to induce more TOD, walkable and scalable development throughout all of Uptown not just along Trade Street. The Gold Line is already there.  Interlining and at-grade crossings is cheap, value engineering, and pure garbage. This city is getting too dense for more at-grade light rail transit unless it's going to be streetcar.  The Silver Line doesn't need to be at grade anywhere.  I'm long past TIRED of everyone always value engineering because they are afraid of the NC GOP naysayers and apolitical skeptics.  
This APTA & ULI induced nonsense is why it's going be nearly another decade before we move forward with the LYNX Silver Line. 
They need to do right by this rapidly densely, developed major city and metropolitan area.
 

Don’t have much to say about that, although I’ll chip away at your logic a bit instead… The blue line already runs north? So by your logic, not only is the Trade St. interlining not the answer, but the LPA is also not the answer! Maybe this should have been the true LPA (purple ofc) and the development would really get going on all over and not just on N. Tryon or just on Trade St! lol:



Sketched the other ones in for fun haha.

[Reverie39]

21 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

The City of Vancouver (core of their metro) has a population of 662,248 in a land area that is roughly the same size as the town limits of Huntersville.... population 61,376. Imagine 60% of all of Mecklenburg County's ~1 million people fitting in just tiny Huntersville!

While our metro populations are similar.... we are so much more low density right now that we need hundreds of more miles of rail transit to be as close to where our sprawling population lives as Vancouver. The Silver Line would bring us to having a rail system even LONGER than the total Vancouver SkyTrain, but due to our low density we'll barely have scratched the surface of providing stations close to where our current population lives. Unfortunately due to our low density... we are trying to appease all Mecklenburg tax payers being asked to fund rail by spreading the stations across the metro to replace the current jobs of highways (i.e. getting from Matthews to Uptown).... which has already been done in cities like Dallas and Sacramento. None of those methods typically result in the booming ridership of fast and frequent service in an urban core as you pretty much use this type of rail routing for work / events in the core. You don't ride those type of rail routes to run an errand, take your kids to school, get groceries, et... like in Vancouver. Our sprawling rail needs will also be WAAY more expensive to build than Vancouver (because realistically we probably need 100+ miles rail to truly serve our region with people giving up their car for errands / daily life).

I agree that the sprawl makes the development of a Vancouver-like transit system more difficult. But as others have pointed out, implementing a good transit system is the only way to cause us to resemble Vancouver's density more. I guess we should think about it like this: people are moving into Charlotte very rapidly, and we want to convince those people to move to denser, transit-connected areas (which they are doing, like South End). The people who already live in the suburbs are unlikely to move inwards, so it's all about narrowing Charlotte's growth to the urban core. So if we develop an urban rail system befitting a dense city, it opens up that opportunity. 

There is also the distinct possibility of a few commuter lines that would then connect some of the suburbs and appease those people, all at relatively low cost (I mean, the tracks are already there). I can really envision a future where the Blue Line, Gold Line, and a (shorter length than currently planned) Silver Line serve to make central Charlotte a very attractive place to move to where it is easy to get around. Meanwhile, a Red Line (hopefully) and another commuter line on the existing Amtrak tracks helps get people to work and back out to the suburbs. That would be five transit lines - three rapid transit, two commuter rail - that would honestly be pretty impressive and start shaping Charlotte into what we hope it can be. In my opinion at least. It's sort of a compromise.

[kayman]

On 11/17/2022 at 7:39 PM, JeanClt said:

Don’t have much to say about that, although I’ll chip away at your logic a bit instead… The blue line already runs north? So by your logic, not only is the Trade St. interlining not the answer, but the LPA is also not the answer! Maybe this should have been the true LPA (purple ofc) and the development would really get going on all over and not just on N. Tryon or just on Trade St! lol:



Sketched the other ones in for fun haha.

That's not chipping away at my logic. At this point, you're just wasting your time spitballing. The LPA alignment is strong in its own. 

The transit riders are more concerned about creating more usable, efficient, and rapid rail transit across Charlotte from west side to the southeast side along with connecting to the CLT Airport.

CATS Staff needs to stop being so damn cheap and allowing value engineering nonsense. Also MTC and leadership needs to stop being so lackadaisical with allowing this rumination over BS about the alignment, and move forward with the engineering and phase of the LPA.

[southslider]

13 hours ago, kayman said:

The transit riders are more concerned about creating more usable, efficient, and rapid rail transit

Exactly why the LPA fails, given its travel time penalties to Blue Line and CTC.

[JRCLT]

That's not chipping away at my logic. At this point, you're just wasting your time spitballing. The LPA alignment is strong in its own. 
The transit riders are more concerned about creating more usable, efficient, and rapid rail transit across Charlotte from west side to the southeast side along with connecting to the CLT Airport.
CATS Staff needs to stop being so damn cheap and allowing value engineering nonsense. Also MTC and leadership needs to stop being so lackadaisical with allowing this rumination over BS about the alignment, and move forward with the engineering and phase of the LPA.

It is. I used your same thought process. The gold line already goes through there so why have the silver? The blue line already goes through the north side so why have the silver? Not sure how you don’t understand the logic you yourself used.

Way back when the the silver line was being discussed and it LPA was still uncertain, I truly supported this LPA for a similar reason to yours. Yet, when you look at what they’re planning… an elevated track all through uptown, the city’s core, I don’t see how that really helps the area and it’s connectivity to the rest of the system. I thought, “a line is there already, so why put two lines there?” Turns out there are plenty of systems like this, that overlap tracks and they do well. This brings so many benefits to isolating the gold line from traffic through uptown that would improve reliability, so not only building the silver line but also improving another line in one project. The way the LPA wants to fly over everything just doesn’t seem like good development tool like you say it is. Not only is it crammed into a strip of land between 277 and a city street, it’s elevated to a point that I wouldn’t see people actually finding it pleasant to walk to and convenient.

You say you’re thinking about the city and the people in it who want efficient, usable, and rapid rail transit but I don’t see how spending a lot of money is efficient.

Fun fact: Efficiency is about doing more with less resources.

The way the LPA is structured though uptown poses large expenses to what I can see doesn’t do much! Usable? That LPA is very inconvenient and far in both a lateral and vertical sense. It would require expansive walking to get to the station just from the surrounding neighborhoods since the stations are immediately surrounded by more car infrastructure more than homes, business, and people. and crossing 11th St., graham St., etc. which are wider streets with significant or notable thru fares. As you can see sloppily drawn below. Elevators that would be at all stations through uptown aren’t always reliable for ADA access, adds significant cost to construction, and maintenance? Not to mention the extraordinary engineering to design those viaducts that would carry the line over and then the engineering to connect it to the blue line which (already exists on the rails that the gold line runs on). Just a whole lot of money spent on an alignment that doesn’t achieve much of anything in a place surrounded by not people but roads, highway exits, and the line being terribly connected to the rest of the system. I say this as one that was advocating for this alignment. Likely because I didn’t truly understand what really goes into a project like this. The many factors to consider in the design and the many costs necessary to build this and not just monetary costs but the true trade offs of building this a certain way or in one place and not another.



This isn’t a quality alignment. This is the easy way out.

Why? It tip toes through Uptown. It’s way above the ground and in uptown’s peripheral. In a neighborhood that has the blue line and with a lot of land owned by a man probably too scared to spend his money to do anything in this area. The silver line likely wouldn’t change any of that. This side would remain underachieving its potential and Charlotte would have a useless section of line that allows for minimal access.

I wouldn’t call the gold line interlining value engineering. It does everything this alignment doesn’t do and does what it could do much better. Yes it cost less. It’s not cheap. It’s efficient given the statement I presented in bold. Connectivity is made much more effectively with this alignment over the LPA. Goes through the center of uptown where the streets are narrower and trade would be much narrower for pedestrian accessibility and safety. The rest of uptown is extremely walkable which makes the access to the silver line simple to everyone living and working in uptown including first and fourth ward. I’m either a drive that train through the neighborhood or through trade! LPA DOESN’T CUT IT FOR A TRULY GOOD SYSTEM that puts PEOPLE first and not Cars because that’s what the LPA does. LPA is transit bending to the will of cars when you really take a look at it. (I can go into detail about how the trade alignment can deal and interact a safe manner with cars. Design is such a powerful tool that people don’t understand and those who design don’t truly use to its full potential and it’s best outcome. Huge safety measures can come from design alone. I won’t in this post since it is getting too long).

Also don’t tell me when I’m wasting my time, only I can decide that. I don’t think I’m wasting my time. Especially since this a public forum. I’m not only expressing my thoughts and ideas to you, but to anyone that takes their own time to read this.

[kayman]

11 hours ago, JeanClt said:

It is. I used your same thought process. The gold line already goes through there so why have the silver? The blue line already goes through the north side so why have the silver? Not sure how you don’t understand the logic you yourself used.

Way back when the the silver line was being discussed and it LPA was still uncertain, I truly supported this LPA for a similar reason to yours. Yet, when you look at what they’re planning… an elevated track all through uptown, the city’s core, I don’t see how that really helps the area and it’s connectivity to the rest of the system. I thought, “a line is there already, so why put two lines there?” Turns out there are plenty of systems like this, that overlap tracks and they do well. This brings so many benefits to isolating the gold line from traffic through uptown that would improve reliability, so not only building the silver line but also improving another line in one project. The way the LPA wants to fly over everything just doesn’t seem like good development tool like you say it is. Not only is it crammed into a strip of land between 277 and a city street, it’s elevated to a point that I wouldn’t see people actually finding it pleasant to walk to and convenient.

You say you’re thinking about the city and the people in it who want efficient, usable, and rapid rail transit but I don’t see how spending a lot of money is efficient.

Fun fact: Efficiency is about doing more with less resources.

The way the LPA is structured though uptown poses large expenses to what I can see doesn’t do much! Usable? That LPA is very inconvenient and far in both a lateral and vertical sense. It would require expansive walking to get to the station just from the surrounding neighborhoods since the stations are immediately surrounded by more car infrastructure more than homes, business, and people. and crossing 11th St., graham St., etc. which are wider streets with significant or notable thru fares. As you can see sloppily drawn below. Elevators that would be at all stations through uptown aren’t always reliable for ADA access, adds significant cost to construction, and maintenance? Not to mention the extraordinary engineering to design those viaducts that would carry the line over and then the engineering to connect it to the blue line which (already exists on the rails that the gold line runs on). Just a whole lot of money spent on an alignment that doesn’t achieve much of anything in a place surrounded by not people but roads, highway exits, and the line being terribly connected to the rest of the system. I say this as one that was advocating for this alignment. Likely because I didn’t truly understand what really goes into a project like this. The many factors to consider in the design and the many costs necessary to build this and not just monetary costs but the true trade offs of building this a certain way or in one place and not another.



This isn’t a quality alignment. This is the easy way out.

Why? It tip toes through Uptown. It’s way above the ground and in uptown’s peripheral. In a neighborhood that has the blue line and with a lot of land owned by a man probably too scared to spend his money to do anything in this area. The silver line likely wouldn’t change any of that. This side would remain underachieving its potential and Charlotte would have a useless section of line that allows for minimal access.

I wouldn’t call the gold line interlining value engineering. It does everything this alignment doesn’t do and does what it could do much better. Yes it cost less. It’s not cheap. It’s efficient given the statement I presented in bold. Connectivity is made much more effectively with this alignment over the LPA. Goes through the center of uptown where the streets are narrower and trade would be much narrower for pedestrian accessibility and safety. The rest of uptown is extremely walkable which makes the access to the silver line simple to everyone living and working in uptown including first and fourth ward. I’m either a drive that train through the neighborhood or through trade! LPA DOESN’T CUT IT FOR A TRULY GOOD SYSTEM that puts PEOPLE first and not Cars because that’s what the LPA does. LPA is transit bending to the will of cars when you really take a look at it. (I can go into detail about how the trade alignment can deal and interact a safe manner with cars. Design is such a powerful tool that people don’t understand and those who design don’t truly use to its full potential and it’s best outcome. Huge safety measures can come from design alone. I won’t in this post since it is getting too long).

Also don’t tell me when I’m wasting my time, only I can decide that. I don’t think I’m wasting my time. Especially since this a public forum. I’m not only expressing my thoughts and ideas to you, but to anyone that takes their own time to read this.

Honestly, nothing you have said or  will say professionally nor personally will change my opinion on the topic of the LPA. You are wasting your time discussing or quoting me because I have nothing else to discuss with you on this topic at this time. I said what I said about the LPA above. 

19 hours ago, southslider said:

Exactly why the LPA fails, given its travel time penalties to Blue Line and CTC.

I disagree.

I support the transit riders in my professional capacity not bloviating over why you think something should go at-grade down Trade Street.  I don't support cheap and inefficient at-grade recommendations.

Edited November 21, 2022 by kayman

[kermit]

One year into infrastructure bill and CATS is nowhere near having an expansion plan. Tick tock… 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by kermit