CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[RANYC]

One of the best things anyone can do to get to the best, collective solution is to constructively engage even through conflict.  Disagreement, skepticism, and intellectual challenge are not personal attacks.  They're opportunities to sharpen your case.  We've got to learn to disagree without getting defensive.  It's actually a huge win finding someone interested enough in whatever it is you're working on to actually disagree with you over it.

Edited November 22, 2022 by RANYC

[ajfunder]

Just got back into town for the holidays and realized CATS is still running the LYNX on 20 minute headways even at rush hour. WTF are they doing?

Pay your people and fix this issue already, ridiculous. Rant over lol.

[JRCLT]

Just got back into town for the holidays and realized CATS is still running the LYNX on 20 minute headways even at rush hour. WTF are they doing?

Pay your people and fix this issue already, ridiculous. Rant over lol.

Unfortunately it’s a lot easier said then done since they operate on a budget. I’m not sure how they would orchestrate higher pay even if that’s what they wanted…this is also fairly recent so it’s hard to quickly plan this but even with this uncertainty I have not seen a mention of increase pay as a solution to the lack of conductors.

[Reverie39]

I wonder if CATS internal discussions are like the one we're having here. Would explain a lot lol

[JRCLT]

I wonder if CATS internal discussions are like the one we're having here. Would explain a lot lol

I sure hope not! But it does sort of sound like a conversation CDOT and CATS would have.

CATS: “We want to improve gold line reliability by preemption though it’s route”

CDOT: “No it will cause too much traffic in uptown and won’t be efficient! The people need to drive without a care for anything or anyone.”

CATS: “it likely won’t cause too much disruption and would improve the gold line reliability. Please let us have traffic light priority!”

CDOT: “No, We know better. Nothing you say will change our decision.”

CATS: “Better transit reliability will increase ridership and also likely offset some of that disruption.”

CDOT: “Nahh… We know what’s best. Nothing you say will change my decision.”

CATS: “But more relia-“

CDOT: “Nope! Again, We know better and transit is none of our concern! Nothing you say will change our decision. If you don’t stop giving these logical premises, I’ll report your commen-“

Whoops maybe that last part doesn’t actually happen lol.

CDOT prioritizes cars over anything else which is funny because they are a DOT not a DOV-ehicles.

[DEnd]

11 hours ago, kayman said:

 LPA. 

Ok I get the liking of the LPA, it would drive demand to a lower demand area.  On that I can agree.  The question on demand drive that I have though is: is it justifiable?  VS the interlined Gold Line routing you are really only opening up two stops to new development, basically Central and Graham.  Though you are providing better connections for First Ward as well.  That's for a cost of maybe 250 million or more.  VS. the interlined Blue Line routing it's only 1 stop.   Thats a pretty big ask for 1 or two extra stops, that only provide minor accessibility improvements.

Other benefits I see: possibility of using ATC, lower vehicle Maintenace cost vs interlining with the gold line (not needing batteries), higher reliability.

Downsides: lower frequency in the CBD, much higher cost, fewer stops in the CBD, not being as cost effective (which could lead to us not getting grant money and thus not being able to do the project), higher infrastructure maintenance cost.  

Another benefit of interlining:  it still leaves open the possibility of doing the original LPA routing, or close to it anyway, at a later date.  

I hear you loud and clear on not wanting value engineering decreasing the project scope; but the reality is it's going to happen; it already happened with the LPA by not even considering a subway.  I don't even view it as a bad thing especially when you consider that the project has on going non-supported operating costs.  

[JRCLT]

Ok I get the liking of the LPA, it would drive demand to a lower demand area.  On that I can agree.  The question on demand drive that I have though is: is it justifiable?  VS the interlined Gold Line routing you are really only opening up two stops to new development, basically Central and Graham.  Though you are providing better connections for First Ward as well.  That's for a cost of maybe 250 million or more.  VS. the interlined Blue Line routing it's only 1 stop.   Thats a pretty big ask for 1 or two extra stops, that only provide minor accessibility improvements.
Other benefits I see: possibility of using ATC, lower vehicle Maintenace cost vs interlining with the gold line (not needing batteries), higher reliability.
Downsides: lower frequency in the CBD, much higher cost, fewer stops in the CBD, not being as cost effective (which could lead to us not getting grant money and thus not being able to do the project), higher infrastructure maintenance cost.  

Another benefit of interlining:  it still leaves open the possibility of doing the original LPA routing, or close to it anyway, at a later date.  

I hear you loud and clear on not wanting value engineering decreasing the project scope; but the reality is it's going to happen; it already happened with the LPA by not even considering a subway.  I don't even view it as a bad thing especially when you consider that the project has on going non-supported operating costs.  

It also would be more expensive to get around CGS as opposed to interlining… it would basically be elevated through the entire trip through uptown set aside from the CBD. I used to support the LPA but the more I look at what it does and at what costs, the LPA starts to make less and less sense. Tax payers get a lot less for a lot more cost vs interlining with gold. At least how it stands now. Elevated all through uptown and shoved aside. That is my stance (which I’m always open to change if good facts and points are provided to change it. Saying it’s something when clearly it isn’t, isn’t an argument for me).

[southslider]

All of this focus on Uptown, while NCDOT is quietly trying to take up all remaining space along 74 for cars, leaving virtually none for Silver Line around Hawthorne.  The recent funding swap approved by CRTPO ensures another highway widening in Elizabeth will happen well before any rail transit project.

[Third Strike]

6 hours ago, southslider said:

All of this focus on Uptown, while NCDOT is quietly trying to take up all remaining space along 74 for cars, leaving virtually none for Silver Line around Hawthorne.  The recent funding swap approved by CRTPO ensures another highway widening in Elizabeth will happen well before any rail transit project.

Do you have a link? This is the first I’m hearing of this. 

[southslider]

2 hours ago, Third Strike said:

Do you have a link? This is the first I’m hearing of this. 

NCDOT STIP Project U-6103

[JRCLT]

NCDOT STIP Project U-6103

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/us-74-express-lanes-i-277/Documents/U-6103-project-handout.pdf

It’s just the toll-lanes on independence….it is a known project that I’ve seen discussed in the highway thread (Edit: I lied, I’ve seen the southern section from 485 up to Idlewild but this other section is a continuation of it anyways). Also in the link I provided you can see the typical section between Idlewild and 277 and see that no widening is taking place along the places the silver line is running. The lanes that are currently there are the same as the one portrayed in the typical section. What is happening is that where the busses used to run now will be a toll lane. Likely will have a BRT situation like the planned I-77 BRT on those toll lanes. So…I’m not sure if you’re misinformed, but this doesn’t affect the silver line’s alignment much at all. I doubt that NCDOT would purposefully ignore the SilverLine.

[southslider]

14 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

 So…I’m not sure if you’re misinformed, but this doesn’t affect the silver line’s alignment much at all. I doubt that NCDOT would purposefully ignore the SilverLine.

The pre-existing busway isn't the same as the planned toll lanes. The general public can't just travel highway speeds within the busway without having some barrier or other separation.  Granted, barriers and shoulders aren't the same as widening for additional lanes, but in the vicinity of Hawthorne, even widening a bit still takes up limited space.

[JRCLT]

The pre-existing busway isn't the same as the planned toll lanes. The general public can't just travel highway speeds within the busway without having some barrier or other separation.  Granted, barriers and shoulders aren't the same as widening for additional lanes, but in the vicinity of Hawthorne, even widening a bit still takes up limited space.

^ Planned Conditions ^

^ Existing Conditions ^

For what they’re doing, it wouldn’t require any outward expansion like you say. It would only require retrofitting for toll lanes. It would probably be more accurate to say NCDOT stole the dedicated guideway for busses. Which on the other hand is due to underutilization but also due to the Silver line’s manifestation as well.

[lit]

Hear me out now, what if we tore down the existing Hawthorne Street Bridge (which isn't all that old) and then rebuilt it? And then we could rebuild it again! Let's just keep rebuilding that same bridge over and over again!!!

[southslider]

On 11/27/2022 at 12:04 AM, JeanClt said:

^ Planned Conditions ^

For what they’re doing, it wouldn’t require any outward expansion like you say. It would only require retrofitting for toll lanes.

The width for the red area and center barrier doesn't exist today and does require slight widening. At Hawthorne, NCDOT is looking to shorten the outbound Express Lane to stay within the existing bridge span, rather than rebuild a recently rebuilt bridge.

[15895]

I need a WBTV 3 investigation on whether there is no/less room for silver line near Hawthorne….

[CLT2014]

For the LPA... It looks like there is a station at Pecan (southeast of the freight railroad line) and at Central. Is there going to be a bridge or path to connect the Pecan Station to the Sunnyside Street Gold Line Station for transfers over the freight line? Otherwise we are missing potential transfer routings to destinations like Presbyterian Med Center, CPCC Main, Elizabeth shops/restaurants, and government district employment from the Silver to Gold Line.

Also, will stations along Independence have bridges for pedestrian access to both sides of the highway? I.E. Morningside Station has access from both Chantilly and Commonwealth sides. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by CLT2014

[Miesian Corners]

Why is it CDOT, NCDOT, and CATS can't seem to accept the idea that a bus stop lane (pull off) would be a good idea at major stops on busy thoroughfares? LA, San Francisco, Seattle, Phoenix, Dallas, Denver...all have them.

[Hushpuppy321]

On 11/23/2022 at 9:18 PM, kayman said:

You are wasting time this Thanksgiving holiday week. Nothing you have said worth engaging nor provided anything about the LPA. 

I don't have to self-reflect on anything because your responses shown you insult people who dismiss and refuse to engage with you.

FYI, your responses show you are not worth my time other than ignoring from now on. I don't argue with the foolishness as your responses are coming across as such.  Peace out to you... 

 

Not getting involved with the personal issues - but I agree with you on the LPA.  I think routing it through 4th & 1st Ward mostly (If not all) grade separated would be better than interlining with either Blue or Gold.

[tozmervo]

3 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

Why is it CDOT, NCDOT, and CATS can't seem to accept the idea that a bus stop lane (pull off) would be a good idea at major stops on busy thoroughfares? LA, San Francisco, Seattle, Phoenix, Dallas, Denver...all have them.

In Charlotte's driving culture, I would be concerned about buses getting "trapped" in their pull-off and not being able to get back into the travel lane.

[southslider]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

In Charlotte's driving culture, I would be concerned about buses getting "trapped" in their pull-off and not being able to get back into the travel lane.

All the more reason to either provide an exclusive signal for buses to queue-jump or continue bus-only lanes through the intersection.   An easy first step for Charlotte to keep up with major cities would be to add some red paint to the 4th St bus lane in Uptown.

[KJHburg]

From the big city down south Atlanta.  They are implementing more and more BRT around town.  From the ATL Biz Chronicle

Why is MARTA exploring bus rapid transit?

By Tyler Wilkins  –  Reporter, Atlanta Business Chronicle
Nov 28, 2022

 

In a few years, MARTA will start building its historic expansion of transit throughout Atlanta's car-centric region.

But inflation has put MARTA in a financial crunch, an issue exacerbated by dwindling ridership and little state-provided funding. The transit agency is exploring alternatives to light rail as a way to shave costs and expedite the delivery of projects within the More MARTA Atlanta program.

One of the top contenders? Bus rapid transit (BRT), a mode already popular in Latin America and Asia, as well as a few U.S. cities including Indianapolis, New York City and Los Angeles.

What is bus rapid transit?

BRT is intended to mimic the speed of rail. Buses on these routes run in dedicated lanes. Traffic signals are programmed to quickly get those vehicles through intersections. Bus stops are built similar to rail stations: covered shelters; raised platforms; real-time arrival displays and the ability to pre-pay before boarding.

"It's a major game changer for this region because of that dedicated right-of-way model," said Bryan Hobbs, a project manager at MARTA. "We can be in mixed traffic all day, but we drive in it and see how terrible it is every day."

Where is BRT coming?

The first BRT route will stretch through Peoplestown, Summerhill, Capitol Gateway and South Downtown, with a travel time of 12 to 15 minutes from north to south. That 14-stop route is expected to be completed by summer 2025. It could be the first chance for many Atlanta residents to experience what it's like riding an efficient BRT system, Hobbs said.

Other BRT routes in Atlanta will run down Campbellton Road, North Avenue, and Donald Lee Hollowell Parkway and Northside Drive. Additional BRT routes will flow between Fulton and Clayton counties along GA-54 and GA-86. MARTA might swap out light rail for BRT along Clifton Road in the North Druid Hills and North Decatur areas.

Some metro counties outside of MARTA's network are exploring BRT. For example, Gwinnett has studied the potential for BRT corridors along Sugarloaf Parkway, Jimmy Carter Boulevard and Satellite Boulevard. There have also been discussions about adding BRT lanes to GA-400 and the top end of Interstate 285.

What's the appeal of BRT?

In general, BRT routes tend to be much cheaper to build and operate than light rail. The Campbellton route is expected to cost about 60% less than the light rail line originally envisioned for the corridor.

New BRT routes can also be constructed in just five to seven years, compared with eight to 10 years for light rail. BRT routes can have travel times almost as fast as light rail, considering buses don't have to wait in traffic behind other cars or a long time for a green light.

But it will be interesting to see how MARTA prevents other vehicles from traveling in those dedicated lanes. Some municipalities splash their bus-only lanes with bright red paint to alert drivers. In other cities with BRT, cameras can detect if cars enter the lanes, resulting in tickets for drivers.

Why does BRT face criticism?

BRT has faced fierce opposition. It's a relatively new concept in metro Atlanta, which explains some of the uncertainty. Some residents worry it will be lower quality with less economic development potential than light rail.

 

In the case of Campbellton Road, Atlanta officials and local residents raised concerns over equitable investment. Those opposed to BRT wanted to ensure that upwards of $300 million — the amount MARTA initially expected to spend on light rail in the corridor — would still be invested in the area if the agency switched to BRT.

MARTA stated it intends to invest nearly $500 million into the corridor and is working with a design firm to improve sidewalks, bolster crosswalk safety, add bike lanes and spur transit-oriented development with housing and retail.

Does BRT have the same real estate opportunities as rail?

In recent decades, real estate developers have viewed sites near MARTA stations as beachfront property. Companies see transit access as a way to attract and retain talent and retailers see those commuters as potential customers. Apartment developers are also seizing upon those sites.

It's still too early to say how much BRT will spur growth, but properties along the Summerhill route are already capturing interest. Stafford Properties plans to turn two industrial buildings next to a future station in Peoplestown into a food hall and commercial development.

MARTA is working with local officials to ensure they improve the built environment around future BRT stations, Hobbes said.

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2022/11/28/column-marta-brt-explainer.html

Also Clayton County to the southside of the city of ATL is doing BRT as well.

https://connectclayton.com/claytonbrt/

Plus of course Raleigh Cary Garner with 4 lines first one getting ready to start construction.  I think Charlotte and CATS needs to examine this and implement where it makes sense (which is a lot places around town like Beatties Ford Rd up to Northlake or out Albemarle Rd and lower Central Ave.)

Even El Paso's BRT has 10 minute runs all day long.  

[southslider]

If both Atlanta and Raleigh are pursuing BRT, why not Charlotte?  Granted, to be true BRT, Charlotte would need to dedicate some lanes. Personally, I'd start with any of the six-lane thoroughfares in Charlotte, like Albemarle Rd, Freedom Dr, or Wilkinson Blvd.

Edited November 29, 2022 by southslider

[15895]

I’m not the biggest fan of BRT for Charlotte (to connect the moderately higher income commuters from the suburbs, yes. I do support that) 

I think Charlotte needs frequent rail and not BRT. I think BRT works best in large dense gridded urban areas and I’m not sure Wilkinson or Freedom - for example - have that density. I also think BRT is good for park & ride commuter suburbanites to a center city. But I’m not feeling BRT for Charlotte inner-city trips. 
 

I like the idea of rapid frequent rail in Charlotte because the neighborhoods in urban Charlotte are mostly way too low density and suburbany (aka no grid)  nature outside of a few key neighborhoods.
 

Below for example. If the Red were all day 10 minute or less rail. And the blue and green were 15 minute frequencies buses. I think buses serving deep into residential Charlotte on relatively short routes  can give them higher frequency simply by being short. The key benefit of rail is rapid and it’s better infrastructure to help decentralize the bus system into shorter, more frequent bus routes scattered along rail lines with routes hitting a rail line typically at least twice that way customers don’t have to take the bus line all the way through an entire route like for example if you lived in Westerly Heights you would take the bus to the “red line” rail towards the west and if in Ashley park take the bus to the red line towards the east. 

 

2 more Rail lines in Charlotte and I think that’s enough infrastructure to build a better decentralized bus system to serve these neighborhoods.

Completely off topic but somewhat relevant. I feel like on this board we ignore too much of center city Charlotte in favor of higher income, whiter areas. I wish there was more advocates for the whole of center city. It would be super great to see more advocacy for the broader - and blacker - portions of center city because I think the city would benefit from that. I don’t mean that in a political statement sense nor trying to rile up any on the right. I’m talking purely from an urban planning/development point of view on how to densify and grow center city. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[Miesian Corners]

11 hours ago, tozmervo said:

In Charlotte's driving culture, I would be concerned about buses getting "trapped" in their pull-off and not being able to get back into the travel lane.

If busses can handle L.A. traffic, they can handle Charlotte's.