CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[southslider]

Too many think of the B in the BRT, when the real appeal is the R.  True BRT must have dedicated lanes in key places to be rapid, or more importantly,  maximize convenience for maximized user experience.

Just imagine leaving CLT airport at the Terminal's curb at a station-like stop, traveling in a dedicated lane on Wilkinson Blvd between the airport and 277, then even a dedicated lane in Uptown, like College St, dropping you closer to Tryon than Blue Line. As it stands, the LPA for Silver Line would require connecting on an airport shuttle or separate airport people-mover out to an Airport station on Wilkinson, transferring to Silver Line, traveling to 11th Street in Uptown, then walking to 9th Street to transfer to Blue Line, then traveling to CTC/Arena, 3rd St/Convention or Brooklyn Village stations, then still walking an extra block to Tryon, compared to a single-seat, direct ride from the airport terminal curb to College St.  Now also imagine waiting on that less convenient Silver Line to be built an extra decade into the future as the second phase of a rail project not even funded yet for its first phase out to Matthews. 

[Reverie39]

On 11/26/2022 at 11:12 PM, JeanClt said:

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/us-74-express-lanes-i-277/Documents/U-6103-project-handout.pdf

It’s just the toll-lanes on independence….it is a known project that I’ve seen discussed in the highway thread (Edit: I lied, I’ve seen the southern section from 485 up to Idlewild but this other section is a continuation of it anyways). Also in the link I provided you can see the typical section between Idlewild and 277 and see that no widening is taking place along the places the silver line is running. The lanes that are currently there are the same as the one portrayed in the typical section. What is happening is that where the busses used to run now will be a toll lane. Likely will have a BRT situation like the planned I-77 BRT on those toll lanes. So…I’m not sure if you’re misinformed, but this doesn’t affect the silver line’s alignment much at all. I doubt that NCDOT would purposefully ignore the SilverLine.

Wow, that is a whole lot of planned express lanes. Very northeasty. Didn't realize even the beltline would be getting some.

[kayman]

On 11/28/2022 at 5:42 PM, KJHburg said:

From the big city down south Atlanta.  They are implementing more and more BRT around town.  From the ATL Biz Chronicle

Why is MARTA exploring bus rapid transit?

By Tyler Wilkins  –  Reporter, Atlanta Business Chronicle
Nov 28, 2022

 

In a few years, MARTA will start building its historic expansion of transit throughout Atlanta's car-centric region.

But inflation has put MARTA in a financial crunch, an issue exacerbated by dwindling ridership and little state-provided funding. The transit agency is exploring alternatives to light rail as a way to shave costs and expedite the delivery of projects within the More MARTA Atlanta program.

One of the top contenders? Bus rapid transit (BRT), a mode already popular in Latin America and Asia, as well as a few U.S. cities including Indianapolis, New York City and Los Angeles.

What is bus rapid transit?

BRT is intended to mimic the speed of rail. Buses on these routes run in dedicated lanes. Traffic signals are programmed to quickly get those vehicles through intersections. Bus stops are built similar to rail stations: covered shelters; raised platforms; real-time arrival displays and the ability to pre-pay before boarding.

"It's a major game changer for this region because of that dedicated right-of-way model," said Bryan Hobbs, a project manager at MARTA. "We can be in mixed traffic all day, but we drive in it and see how terrible it is every day."

Where is BRT coming?

The first BRT route will stretch through Peoplestown, Summerhill, Capitol Gateway and South Downtown, with a travel time of 12 to 15 minutes from north to south. That 14-stop route is expected to be completed by summer 2025. It could be the first chance for many Atlanta residents to experience what it's like riding an efficient BRT system, Hobbs said.

Other BRT routes in Atlanta will run down Campbellton Road, North Avenue, and Donald Lee Hollowell Parkway and Northside Drive. Additional BRT routes will flow between Fulton and Clayton counties along GA-54 and GA-86. MARTA might swap out light rail for BRT along Clifton Road in the North Druid Hills and North Decatur areas.

Some metro counties outside of MARTA's network are exploring BRT. For example, Gwinnett has studied the potential for BRT corridors along Sugarloaf Parkway, Jimmy Carter Boulevard and Satellite Boulevard. There have also been discussions about adding BRT lanes to GA-400 and the top end of Interstate 285.

What's the appeal of BRT?

In general, BRT routes tend to be much cheaper to build and operate than light rail. The Campbellton route is expected to cost about 60% less than the light rail line originally envisioned for the corridor.

New BRT routes can also be constructed in just five to seven years, compared with eight to 10 years for light rail. BRT routes can have travel times almost as fast as light rail, considering buses don't have to wait in traffic behind other cars or a long time for a green light.

But it will be interesting to see how MARTA prevents other vehicles from traveling in those dedicated lanes. Some municipalities splash their bus-only lanes with bright red paint to alert drivers. In other cities with BRT, cameras can detect if cars enter the lanes, resulting in tickets for drivers.

Why does BRT face criticism?

BRT has faced fierce opposition. It's a relatively new concept in metro Atlanta, which explains some of the uncertainty. Some residents worry it will be lower quality with less economic development potential than light rail.

 

In the case of Campbellton Road, Atlanta officials and local residents raised concerns over equitable investment. Those opposed to BRT wanted to ensure that upwards of $300 million — the amount MARTA initially expected to spend on light rail in the corridor — would still be invested in the area if the agency switched to BRT.

MARTA stated it intends to invest nearly $500 million into the corridor and is working with a design firm to improve sidewalks, bolster crosswalk safety, add bike lanes and spur transit-oriented development with housing and retail.

Does BRT have the same real estate opportunities as rail?

In recent decades, real estate developers have viewed sites near MARTA stations as beachfront property. Companies see transit access as a way to attract and retain talent and retailers see those commuters as potential customers. Apartment developers are also seizing upon those sites.

It's still too early to say how much BRT will spur growth, but properties along the Summerhill route are already capturing interest. Stafford Properties plans to turn two industrial buildings next to a future station in Peoplestown into a food hall and commercial development.

MARTA is working with local officials to ensure they improve the built environment around future BRT stations, Hobbes said.

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2022/11/28/column-marta-brt-explainer.html

Also Clayton County to the southside of the city of ATL is doing BRT as well.

https://connectclayton.com/claytonbrt/

Plus of course Raleigh Cary Garner with 4 lines first one getting ready to start construction.  I think Charlotte and CATS needs to examine this and implement where it makes sense (which is a lot places around town like Beatties Ford Rd up to Northlake or out Albemarle Rd and lower Central Ave.)

Even El Paso's BRT has 10 minute runs all day long.  

Uh yeah, I used to work on transit planning projects in Atlanta for several years.  I actually worked on the Summerhill BRT, Clifton Road high capacity transit studies, and what is now the Clayton County BRT projects formerly the Georgia SR 139 BRT. 

The only thing in that article that is remotely close to implementation is the  Summerhill BRT project, which was funded by one of the last TIGER grants to be used issued by the FTA in 2017.  The Summerhill BRT-lite is still at least another 2 years from being operational.  

The remainder of those MARTA BRT projects are not anymore further along than the not well publicized, poorly marketed, proposed BRT alignments by CATS in its Envision My Ride study that was completed & adopted by the MTC in the spring 2022. 

https://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/envisionmyride/Pages/default.aspx

Envision My Ride: Bus Priority Study

I think Raleigh and Birmingham are much further along in the implementation of BRT than Atlanta and Charlotte.  As a matter of fact, Birmingham BRT is operational now. https://www.birminghamal.gov/brt

Once again, I never believe the hype of transit in Atlanta because outside of the heavy rail transit, there's nothing we should be emulating of them. I was just there last week and former transit colleagues were asking me how Charlotte did it.  They (Atlanta) are trying to emulate us more than many realize on creating sense of place and inducing more demand along with developmental density around mass transit.  

Edited November 30, 2022 by kayman

[Reverie39]

Atlanta's transit system has always struck me as odd. Gotta be the smallest heavy rail system in the country, right? It's basically two lines that happen to branch off of each other for a short distance at each end. Feels like they just refused to expand it since its initial construction.

Now that I think about it, maybe Miami actually takes the crown. I believe it's just one single heavy rail line there, and IIRC it's losing ridership.

[15895]

45 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

Atlanta's transit system has always struck me as odd. Gotta be the smallest heavy rail system in the country, right? It's basically two lines that happen to branch off of each other for a short distance at each end. Feels like they just refused to expand it since its initial construction.

Now that I think about it, maybe Miami actually takes the crown. I believe it's just one single heavy rail line there, and IIRC it's losing ridership.

Los Angeles, Miami, Baltimore, Cleveland come to mind as smaller Heavy Rail Systems.  (2019 Annual Ridership on the far right). (Sorry for pics, I love Mass Transit so I can't resist lol)

Baltimore and Cleveland I believe are just 1 line each. LA is two lines that merge together. Purple Line is currently being further expanded. That's their own heavy rail though.

LA Heavy Rail Map:

Cleveland:

Edited November 30, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

MARTA desire vs reality

 

[Reverie39]

22 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Los Angeles, Miami, Baltimore, Cleveland come to mind as smaller Heavy Rail Systems.  (2019 Annual Ridership on the far right). (Sorry for pics, I love Mass Transit so I can't resist lol)

Baltimore and Cleveland I believe are just 1 line each. LA is two lines that merge together. Purple Line is currently being further expanded. That's their own heavy rail though.

LA Heavy Rail Map:

Cleveland:

Wow, I had no idea Baltimore and Cleveland's systems qualified as heavy rail. I always just assumed they were light rail that ran partially underground. I assume they were part of much larger system plans before the decline of the Rust Belt hit those cities very hard.

[15895]

Just now, Reverie39 said:

Wow, I had no idea Baltimore and Cleveland's systems qualified as heavy rail. I always just assumed they were light rail that ran partially underground. I assume they were part of much larger system plans before the decline of the Rust Belt hit those cities very hard.

Baltimore & Cleveland both have separate Light rail systems too.  But their heavy rail lines are definitely HRT in every way.

At least in the case of Baltimore, yes - it was part of a larger plan (below)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Reverie39]

1 minute ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Baltimore & Cleveland both have separate Light rail systems too.  But their heavy rail lines are definitely HRT in every way.

At least in the case of Baltimore, yes - it was part of a larger plan (below)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am very glad they didn't end up naming their airport "Friendship"

[LKN704]

On 12/1/2022 at 11:39 AM, Reverie39 said:

I am very glad they didn't end up naming their airport "Friendship"

They actually did. It was originally called Friendship International Airport until it was renamed Baltimore/Washington International in the 1970s. Friendship served as Washington's international, jet airport until Dulles opened as jets weren't allowed at National at the time. 

In any case, Baltimore's subway system is quite sad. The line in its present format is essentially the NW line on the map above, with the light rail being the N/S line. It's effectively a train to nowhere, and doesn't have any formal transfer opportunities to the light rail line. You can see knock-out panels at the Charles Center station downtown to see where the E/W line's platforms were supposed to be. 

Baltimore got almost a billion dollars in funding from the Feds a couple years back to build the E/W line (although as light rail, though it would operate in tunnels downtown) until for the outgoing Republican governor to cancel the project and redirect state funds to projects in Western Maryland. I'm hoping that with new leadership in Maryland that the project eventually resumes. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by LKN704

[Hushpuppy321]

Raleigh Business Journal has a new article concerning the proposed Commuter Rail in the Triangle.  Saying that Proposed Future Construction Costs have ballooned.  After the DOLR collapse, transit enthusiasts there May be in for some restless nights.

Just don’t understand why Mass Transit nowadays is just so hard to get done.

[kermit]

14 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Just don’t understand why Mass Transit nowadays is just so hard to get done.

1) Project cost creep is a huge problem, but these  cost increases apply to roads as well. Cost creep for Triangle commuter rail is particularly egregious since the project is being built on state-owned tracks that already carry 10 passenger trains per day.

3) No one is bothering to consider the cost of not building transit -- cities are going to get crushed by auto dependence. The Triangle is going to pay now or pay later...

[15895]

38 minutes ago, kermit said:

1) Project cost creep is a huge problem, but these  cost increases apply to roads as well. Cost creep for Triangle commuter rail is particularly egregious since the project is being built on state-owned tracks that already carry 10 passenger trains per day.

3) No one is bothering to consider the cost of not building transit -- cities are going to get crushed by auto dependence. The Triangle is going to pay now or pay later...

Auto expansion is so much more expensive and there is no limit, no cost that people will ever find astronomical. When a highway needs extra lanes and every bridge and intersection needs rebuilt. No one ever bats a damn eye how outrageously expensive that is. No one says to just build another highway on a cheaper route. No one ever says “well just don’t connect 77 & 485 because it’s too expensive to have the connect. People can get off on on W.T. Harris Blvd. And then get on 77 North bound”.

As I always moan and groan, people are accountants over mass transit but ignore snow plowing, police patrols, car accidents, traffic lights, etc. 

Dallas & Houston show you can have 7-8 million people and people be perfectly happy than to “waste” money on mass transit, etc. So ultimately, I think unfortunately, Triangle residents, stakeholders & community activist as a whole have to decide what they want their future to look like. If that’s a sprawling auto-oriented metropolitan area I mean. It is what it is. I don’t see Charlotte or Raleigh reaching a point where they choose mass transit out of necessity. It doesn’t even really seem like Houston or Dallas have gotten to that point. Austin, for example, they seem to be self-imposing smarter growth on themselves and it seems really driven by the community. Personally, I believe Charlotte was like that previously up until Vi Lyles. I think Vi is perfectly fine with the Charlotte being a good place to raise a family, low cost, safe, good schools. But I don’t see her being the champion for urbanity and reaching the next level like previous leaders did. That’s not a bad thing. I just don’t think she is a huge champion of urbanity. But I haven’t lived in Charlotte for a while so maybe I’m just out of the loop of what kind of leader she is 

[kermit]

14 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

..I don’t see Charlotte or Raleigh reaching a point where they choose mass transit out of necessity....

I dunno, I talk with a bunch of college students about where they prefer to live when they graduate. A huge (and growing) portion (roughly 40%)  of them are pretty adamant about wanting to avoid auto dependence. While that isn't a majority, I think these preferences will felt in the ability of places to continue to attract skilled labor. So while the Triangle may not choke on its traffic in the next decade, I think its lack of mobility options may tangibly impact growth nonetheless. 

[having said all of that, its possible (but not likely IMO) that remote work will render my observations irrelevant. I suppose its equally possible that remote work will allow the folks who really want walkability to flock to those places and work “in Raleigh”]

Edited December 6, 2022 by kermit

[kermit]

15 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

…I think Vi is perfectly fine with the Charlotte being a good place to raise a family, low cost, safe, good schools. But I don’t see her being the champion for urbanity and reaching the next level like previous leaders did. 

Thinking about this and it occurs to me that I can’t think of a single effort from the mayor or the council that has been pro-urban for at least three years. The council certainly hemmed and hawed about the UDO, but the vast majority of their efforts were to water down what was originally proposed. There has no meaningful new action on transit development (other than more thumbtwoddling about how to route the Silver Line through uptown), or bike infrastructure that I am aware of. Did they make any efforts on affordable housing other than a cut and paste bond issue?

I’ll admit, I am not super engaged on local politics so I may have missed something. But if I have not overlooked anything then why are these people representing us?

Edited December 6, 2022 by kermit

[Guest]

I’ll tell you it’s easy to be a an urbanist in an election when you are trying to disrupt the system, once elected council members have no real incentive to actually perform. Council members have learned that when they support NIMBY policies the NIMBYs vote for them and the “urbanists” don’t pay enough attention anyhow. Egleston stayed fairly urban leaning and see what he got?The residents of the city either need to MAKE urbanism a defining political subject so that council makes it one, or they need to pay more attention outside of November and vote in and support fresh candidates that support urbanism until council gets the message. 
 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Guest

[carolina1792]

On 12/5/2022 at 5:55 PM, Hushpuppy321 said:

Raleigh Business Journal has a new article concerning the proposed Commuter Rail in the Triangle.  Saying that Proposed Future Construction Costs have ballooned.  After the DOLR collapse, transit enthusiasts there May be in for some restless nights.

Just don’t understand why Mass Transit nowadays is just so hard to get done.

Raleigh City Mayor is aware of the challenges and has added several comments since that article came out that she's steadfast in support for the rail project and the project will be major topic in the upcoming Raleigh City Council Retreat and  the Mayor has added herself to the GoTriangle board starting today. I think the Triangle Commuter Rail project has way more support and enthusiasm behind it than any previous failed attempts. Triangle metro has been visionless for so long it's hard to gauge how much influence a pro-transit city/county government will have getting the project going.  

Still could fail but any future attempts will obviously cost more and more. 

[Reverie39]

On 12/5/2022 at 8:40 AM, LKN704 said:

They actually did. It was originally called Friendship International Airport until it was renamed Baltimore/Washington International in the 1970s. Friendship served as Washington's international, jet airport until Dulles opened as jets weren't allowed at National at the time. 

In any case, Baltimore's subway system is quite sad. The line in its present format is essentially the NW line on the map above, with the light rail being the N/S line. It's effectively a train to nowhere, and doesn't have any formal transfer opportunities to the light rail line. You can see knock-out panels at the Charles Center station downtown to see where the E/W line's platforms were supposed to be. 

Baltimore got almost a billion dollars in funding from the Feds a couple years back to build the E/W line (although as light rail, though it would operate in tunnels downtown) until for the outgoing Republican governor to cancel the project and redirect state funds to projects in Western Maryland. I'm hoping that with new leadership in Maryland that the project eventually resumes. 

Jeez, that is a travesty. Baltimore is a beautiful and historic city but you'd think proud Marylanders would want their flagship city to see some recovery from the bad couple decades it has had. Crazy that any would want to take funds away from a possible major improvement to the city... but I suppose it's example number 10,000 of the urban/rural divide. Western Maryland residents probably feel like urban eastern Maryland gets all the attention leaving them with nothing.

21 hours ago, carolina1792 said:

Raleigh City Mayor is aware of the challenges and has added several comments since that article came out that she's steadfast in support for the rail project and the project will be major topic in the upcoming Raleigh City Council Retreat and  the Mayor has added herself to the GoTriangle board starting today. I think the Triangle Commuter Rail project has way more support and enthusiasm behind it than any previous failed attempts. Triangle metro has been visionless for so long it's hard to gauge how much influence a pro-transit city/county government will have getting the project going.  

Still could fail but any future attempts will obviously cost more and more. 

I agree as someone with lifelong connections to the Triangle, I sort of scoffed at any of the previous transit attempts but this one seems very possible. Commuter rail on existing tracks was a good idea, relatively easy to make it happen logistically/financially and maybe will give Triangle residents a small taste of local train transit, could have them itching for more in the future.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Wait. Cleveland has a Metro???!!!

[southslider]

So it was pretty clear this week at Council's Transportation Committee that the LPA will remain unchanged in Uptown. Granted, the alternatives have been designed for failure. For some reason, Shared Blue Line didn't include a continuation west at Carson, thereby disconnecting West Phase B. And ultimately, Shared Gold Line is being conceived as too large of a reconstruction, such that Uptown interests see too much pain for the gain.

If the LPA holds, i just hope the 9th St to 11th St transfer is at least improved. While Councilmembers are hardly transit riders, they should at least try out transferring between Blue and Gold Lines to see if that's really what actual riders depending on transit should experience regularly on their already too long travel times when an even worse design "connects" Blue and Silver Lines.

[orulz]

Raleigh City Mayor is aware of the challenges and has added several comments since that article came out that she's steadfast in support for the rail project and the project will be major topic in the upcoming Raleigh City Council Retreat and  the Mayor has added herself to the GoTriangle board starting today. I think the Triangle Commuter Rail project has way more support and enthusiasm behind it than any previous failed attempts. Triangle metro has been visionless for so long it's hard to gauge how much influence a pro-transit city/county government will have getting the project going.  
Still could fail but any future attempts will obviously cost more and more. 

Where did you get the info that Mayor Baldwin has appointed herself to the GoTriangle board? I live in the Triangle and follow this pretty closely, and this is the first I've heard of it.

[carolina1792]

4 hours ago, orulz said:

On 12/6/2022 at 11:08 PM, carolina1792 said:

Raleigh City Mayor is aware of the challenges and has added several comments since that article came out that she's steadfast in support for the rail project and the project will be major topic in the upcoming Raleigh City Council Retreat and  the Mayor has added herself to the GoTriangle board starting today. I think the Triangle Commuter Rail project has way more support and enthusiasm behind it than any previous failed attempts. Triangle metro has been visionless for so long it's hard to gauge how much influence a pro-transit city/county government will have getting the project going.  
Still could fail but any future attempts will obviously cost more and more. 

Where did you get the info that Mayor Baldwin has appointed herself to the GoTriangle board? I live in the Triangle and follow this pretty closely, and this is the first I've heard of it.

This Tuesday's City Council meeting. 

[wilmore]

It is incredible that CATS doesn't even attempt to provide ridership projections for these routes. 

[Hushpuppy321]

I for one am glad that the LPA still stands.  I think it’s the best option - I’m just not very confident that the NCGA will grant the area the right to hold a referendum concerning a Sale Tax Increase to fund the Light Rail expansion.

[JRCLT]

I for one am glad that the LPA still stands.  I think it’s the best option - I’m just not very confident that the NCGA will grant the area the right to hold a referendum concerning a Sale Tax Increase to fund the Light Rail expansion.

Just throwing a fact out: You stand by this even though your low confidence that the NCGA will grant Charlotte a sales tax increase. This is despite this section alone estimated to probably cost a Billion to design and construct. A billion more that the city would need to afford when funds are hard to come by as things currently stand. - Leaving my own opinions aside as much as possible -