CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[southslider]

Colors are only really needed when you have overlapping lines and/or a dense system of similar technology. You obviously don't need colors to distinguish LRT from CR from BRT from Streetcar.

If built as LYNX light rail lines, I'd like to see the Southeast and West Corridors connect, so as to provide a single-ride, similar to the Northeast Corridor serving as an extension of the South Corridor.

I'd also like to see that West-Southeast line overlap the Blue Line in Uptown, so as to serve the same stations. Southeast could depart Independence at Pecan and roughly follow the CSX to the BLE. West could stay on Wilkinson at Morehead and continue on Carson east of I-77 to the BLE. Then, the two lines would overlap in Uptown between 9th Street and Carson stations. And colors then would actually be useful to distinguish lines and service on LRT.

[tozmervo]

NYT has an article about Small Starts funding $75 million to Portland for streetcar expansion. My how the tide has turned. Maybe it is more realistic for Charlotte than I thought it could be.

[cltbwimob]

WBTV.com reported that in a compromise, MTC has decided to pursue federal funding for both the Red Line and BLE. As part of the compromise, the group is lobbying for rules governing the distribution of FTA funds to be changed in such a way that would allow North CR to qualify.

[uptownliving]

Another example of the media just not getting it. That was not a "compromise." It was what CATS was recommending all along. Anyone can go back and look at last months MTC meeting agenda to see that nothing changed...I think that the North towns really just needed to blow off some steam..which they did. I do think the plan they passed is the best path forward...but realistically in the end I'm not sure if it will end up with any Fed or State money for the North line...however I do have my fingers crossed.

[uptownliving]

Bad news for the Red Line.

Governor Purdue has decided to not list the Red Line as the "alternate" or "#2" priority for NC's share of potential TIGER grant. This means that Charlotte and CATS will be going it alone in lobbying for this money...and means the chances of the Red Line getting any of this money are next to nothing.

[nyxmike]

Bad news for the Red Line.

Governor Purdue has decided to not list the Red Line as the "alternate" or "#2" priority for NC's share of potential TIGER grant. This means that Charlotte and CATS will be going it alone in lobbying for this money...and means the chances of the Red Line getting any of this money are next to nothing.

What changed her mind? And what project "replaced" it???

[uptownliving]

No project replaced the Red Line...but the #1 Request for NC is the Yadkin River Bridge on I-85. The Governor's office seems to be confident we will get some money for that bridge.

[southslider]

I think Bev is still bitter over 485. To foil the Guv's plans for a Yadkin bridge would really tick her off.

[dubone]

Bitter that her plan to get us to agree to give up our last remaining loop funds by spending already tight general funds on our loop. Bitter because by freeing up our loop funds would have meant getting to spend that money to make constituents in other cities happy by giving them a loop sooner, while still tricking the uninformed observers in this city to think she helped us by finishing a high profile project.

I mean, please, the project is already on the 7 year construction plan that many people's projects never see. Think about the Little Rock extension that would connect 85 to the airport. All that is lacking there is to bridge Wilkinson. That thing has remained unfunded for decades. So 485 IS funded and is just a few years away. The idea that we'd lose hundreds of millions of dollars in funds just so we can move it up a few years was always absurd and unfair.

Back on topic. Even if it were #2 for the state, those funds are very tight nationally, and it is a steep uphill battle to get those funds to go to one bridge in NC versus all the other potentially important projects in the country. So there was very little chance that they'd go for a project which even its home state did not consider top priority.

The best hope for the Red line is to hope that the Obama administration eventually changes the formula to better favor commuter lines, allowing the project to be rated well.

[Spartan]

As much as I want the Red Line, the Yakin River bridge SHOULD be #1 priority. Otherwise that thing will never get funded and will fall into the river.

[dubone]

Not to be further off topic, but "never" is an overstatement. Five years ago or so it was funded by that division and was setup as a design build project to be built immediately. I think bids were even out for it. But then NCDOT decided to enforce the equity formula and get the urban piedmont to 'repay' their 'overuse' of transportation funds. So for a number of years the cities were actually getting even less than they would normally as they had to give back those funds to the rural east. It was that event that caused the local division to reprioritize and determine they couldn't afford the Yadkin bridge. And then hyper-inflation happened during the boom years, making it virtually impossible to add back to the construction plans. North Carolina's ill conceived transportation formulas created this situation. I agree that it has a stronger case for stimulus funds than the Red Line, but it is still a symbol of NC's failed policies. Saying that those policies can 'never' be fixed is not true, although, it is certainly not likely.

[Spartan]

Yes, an intentional overstatement at that.

[southslider]

To be fair, if the Red Line is expected to wait for changes to Federal rules, such as New Starts criteria, then the Yadkin River Bridge can also wait for changes to State rules, such as the Equity formula.

[dubone]

I bet the Yadkin bridge WILL have to wait for state rules to change. They are going after what 300m of a 1.5b pool of money, competing against, um, 49 other states for that money.

- OH NO, that bridge is 50 years old!!!

- Well, what did you do with all your highway money over the last 50 years?

- Well, we're constructing an amazing intrastate system where every town in Eastern NC can get their own urban loop and their own freeway to Raleigh!

[InitialD]

Plus I think the streetcar proposal is a much better deal - for the same price, you can get just one bridge project, or an entire streetcar transit system

[dubone]

The red line is the commuter rail line to Mooresville. That is what CATS was pitching to be our #2 request.

[New Name]

Read this: $130M in New Starts for Streetcar Projects. Then read a little more to find that no one project can get more than $25M... and now answer this: what can $25M get Charlotte's Streetcar project? Would you build out $25M in tracks, or try get vehicles and power for the Elizabeth Avenue tracks? How far does $25M go?

[southslider]

Assume $25 million as just outside match to local funding and you may be talking a 2- to 4-mile starter line with new vehicles and maintenance facility. Given both the politics of system priorities and diminished receipts, I'm thinking Tax Increment Financing and/or Municipal Services District, not the County half-cent sales tax.

If staying within and close to higher tax-base and more greatly appreciating Uptown, TIF/MSD may be able to cover closer to half of the project cost. Granted, much of that added boost in more tax-capacity areas going to fixed costs (vehicles, VMF), but then future savings for latter extensions into less tax-rich Westside and Eastside neighborhoods. And since re-assessments were delayed, there should be some instant incremental value to tax, even before any new development.

Westside constituents have demanded faster implementation on Beatties Ford in return for their votes on both the initial transit tax and against the repeal. I wonder if those interests would accept extending the tracks almost entirely west of built Elizabeth (exception being a short Presby tail track at 5th/Hawthorne), even if JCSU (or the French St. VMF just past along Brookshire) would be the initial end of the line.

[ChiefJoJo]

Read this: $130M in New Starts for Streetcar Projects. Then read a little more to find that no one project can get more than $25M... and now answer this: what can $25M get Charlotte's Streetcar project? Would you build out $25M in tracks, or try get vehicles and power for the Elizabeth Avenue tracks? How far does $25M go?

This is the key statement:

The grants, set to be awarded this spring, do not require new spending -- the money will come from unallocated funding

lawmakers have already approved for transit New Starts

and buses, according to a statement released by the U.S. DOT.

Large sums of new money would have to go through Congressional appropriations, which is a painstakingly difficult process. To USDOT, this is essentially "pocket change" that represents seed money to assist project sponsors make their projects whole. I would suggest this is somewhat analogous to the $8B stimulus money for high speed rail, which certainly won't go very far towards developing a national network. $25M may not provide a significant cost share, but it can be the difference in helping cobble together a variety of funding sources for a short starter line.

[tozmervo]

The recent Streetcar presentations have been posted. The first half of all three presentations is different (tailored by area). Charlottefuture.org has also received an update to include the streetcar project.

[cltbwimob]

Today, I came across a story in the Gaston Gazette in which city council expresses doubt in the Garden Parkway ever coming to fruition and as such is expected to come forth with a proposal to use some or all of the money that would be used on the Parkway on other transportation improvement projects both in Gaston County, and around the Charlotte region. Among the proposals were completion of 485 and the addition of Commuter Rail to Gastonia.

Me personally, I think this is a great idea if they could do it. It would be especially great if the money could be used to finish 485, build CR to Gastonia, and use left-over money to build the North CR line. That could leave MTC to concentrate all efforts on building the BLE, leaving just the Silver line to be completed. Under this scenario, I could see Charlotte possibly having 4 of it's 5 corridors all serviced by rail transit before 2020. Hopefully, the powers that be will choose LRT for the Silver Line, then we could have a solid system of CR and LRT, maybe even ahead of the 2030 timeframe.

http://www.gastongaz...ive-offers.html

Edited December 15, 2009 by cltbwimob

[Spartan]

That particular highway would be a huge waste of money, and it would be completely impractical. Go for the train.

[tozmervo]

I wonder if we could get it redubbed the "toll-road to nowhere." I bet that could get it put out of its misery. God knows there are dozens of other projects like commuter rail that could be much better off with that money.

[nyxmike]

I also agree and hope they reconsider. For that price, they could build commuter rail to Gastonia, Mooresville, and the Gateway Station. That would spur more (sustainable) economic growth in the whole region than the Garden Parkway ever would. It's encouraging to know that Gaston County is supportive of transit though.

Edited December 15, 2009 by nyxmike

[cltbwimob]

Cost of Garden Parkway-

$1.5 Billion (est)

Cost of other projects-

North CR (Red Line):$375 Million (est)

Gastonia CR: $265 Million-$300 Million (est)

Last leg of 485: Approx $350 Million

I am pretty sure the approx $1 billion needed to complete the last three will produce far more economic benefits for our region than the Garden Parkway ever will. Those projects should cost less too based on current estimates.