CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

Midtown and Downtown together are one of the most dense urban cores of office space in the entire country. Only NYC and Chicago, maybe DC can really compare.  (100m+ sqft) That doesn't even include Buckhead which has a skyline which is bigger than Nashville. The perception that Atlanta has no density is very false. 

 

 

To bring it back to home, Charlotte had the largest percentage increase of office space added in 2022...

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by CarolinaDaydreamin

[15895]

2 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Midtown and Downtown together are one of the most dense urban cores of office space in the entire country. Only NYC and Chicago, maybe Boston, SF and Philly can really compare.  That doesn't even include Buckhead which has a skyline which is bigger than Nashville. The perception that Atlanta has no density is very false. 

 

 

To bring it back to home, Charlotte had the largest percentage increase of office space added in 2022...

 

That’s for U/C. I’d imagine ATL is probably the 5th or 7th largest office in its core. Though I agree with your point. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

Don’t misinterpret this as praise, but my gut says that CATS is no worse under an interim leader than it was under Lewis.

(although the ‘no financial hit from a bus drivers strike’ thing sounded a little tone deaf)

[kayman]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:48 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

I would imagine he would point to Gaston, Cleveland, Lincoln, etc counties as having plenty of space? Urban Sprawl probably only enriches his allies? 

I don’t foresee Charlotte ever becoming more dense than Houston, Dallas or Atlanta on its current track. Dallas is. Whopping 7M+ metro and its density is only 3,400 people per Sq. Mile. 

The future of Charlotte’s urban growth is Atlanta with substantially less mass transit. I’m not sure SouthEnd/Uptown could match Midtown/Downtown ATL without substantial infrastructure upgrades (whether 277 & 77 widening, development creeping towards 77 in SouthEnd, upgrades in the roads into and through SouthEnd or mass transit which let’s face it - ain’t happening in a meaningful way). 

Atlanta has MARTA and 85 is a Monster of a highway along midtown/downtown. I mention Atlanta because I’ve seen plenty of Charlotte posters over time say they don’t want to be Atlanta (in terms of urban sprawl)  but I’m not sure Charlotte’s even on the path to have the infrastructure to have a core as dense as Atlanta?

What is other peoples thought on that? Anyone from Atlanta who is familiar with Atlanta when its metro size was similar to Charlotte’s current? The below has to be Charlotte’s future if  not more lanes needed and Massive 277 upgrades and growth moving towards 77. No?

 

 

On 1/25/2023 at 1:35 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

That’s sort of the comments about Atlanta I was referring to. I interpret these comments to mean that people don’t want Charlotte to sprawl like Atlanta and prefer it to be more dense. Is that what people mean with the avoiding being like Atlanta? 

I would guess pound for pound, if Charlotte were to shrink to Atlanta’s size, Atlanta would be significantly more intense in density and urbanity than Charlotte - inclusive of say how it’s been developing compared to Atlanta for the last 2 or so decades. I would say Atlanta’s been killing it in density for the inner core Vs. Charlotte. 

I still think Charlotte won’t develop as densely as Atlanta without some very large scale upgrades (lane widenings) of Independence, 77 & 277, development moving towards I-77 and possibly expanding Tryon St. 

South Park neither will come anywhere near as dense as Buckhead without Tyvola being a near freeway or massive Blvd. 

Of course a lot of that could be avoided with mass transit but as we’ve seen in this thread, it’s not going to happen. Charlotte won’t even be lucky to build a mass transit to even be 50% of MARTA rail until at least like 2060 (because our long term plans is for low capacity light rail Vs. MARTA). To annoyingly use DC as an example, 395 is underground when it goes north, 295 is 3 lanes each direction, highway 29 is actually slow and urban, and the last couple miles of highway 50 & highway 1 actually are fast. There’s a couple other ares with a mile or two of road that feels like highway but. The power of investing in mass transit. -.-“ I only mention that because it doesn’t have to be giant highways. Surely all the nimby’s and anti-transit folk would want a future without highways and interstates as large as Atlanta. 

 

I think. Charlotte’s going to either be not as dense as Atlanta intown or we’re going to be shocked over the coming decades as Charlotte develops massive massive highways that we’ll look at photos of 77 & think how crazy tiny it was in 2022… That’s not the future I want for Charlotte, but it’s the future and I guess we have to advocate for things knowing the future is going to be highways and massive and fast blvds and advocate for things that’ll still make the city better. 

But. I don’t know. I’m feeling pessimistic about mass transit in Charlotte. I’m hopeful for silver line and look forward to little urban villages that develops around the stations but that’s at least a decade out and I don’t think will change the needle of our urbanity. Ironically, really only highway expansion is our hope for continued urbanity in Charlotte (yea, I know that sounds contradictory but.) 

 

On 1/25/2023 at 2:05 PM, jthomas said:

I won't speak for others, but for me the worst of Atlanta's sins is the mind-boggling scale of the low-density built-up area. Doing a quick measure on Google Earth, Atlanta's contiguous built-up area stretches for roughly 55 miles on the I-20 axis, 65 miles on the I-75 axis, and 80 (!) miles on the I-85 axis. In Charlotte terms, that would be Monroe to Lincolnton, Rock Hill to Statesville, and Gaffney to Salisbury, with all points in between completely covered by single-family subdivisions, strip malls, and 6-lane stroads. It truly does not matter how dense midtown ATL is or becomes. The region as a whole has gobbled up and destroyed an unfathomable amount of natural habitat, and it continues to expand outward at a far greater rate than whatever pockets of urbanity happen to spring up along the Beltline.

I have many relatives who live in metro Atlanta. I hate visiting - it is soul-sucking. Hands-down the worst city I have ever visited, with almost no redeeming features to offset the numbing monotony of auto-centric suburbia. Nothing short of the second coming of General Sherman could save it. Charlotte today is probably where Atlanta was 30-40 years ago. Charlotte must make bold, intentional choices to go down a different path, because the institutionalized sprawl-making machine will continue to do what it does if the status quo remains.

 

On 1/25/2023 at 2:22 PM, kermit said:

Honest question. Could we even build the parking necessary to increase uptown employment at this scale? I kinda doubt it. Would a workforce that was really happy with remote work during the pandemic even tolerate Atlanta-scale congestion for near-daily commutes to an office? I kinda doubt it.

The post-pandemic workpalce trends I see suggest that uptown's future hinge on its ability to increase residential and retail activity. If it remains a single-use office district, I think its future is no better than that of a run of the mill suburban office park. No one wants to go to an office today that offers so few options for lunch, breaks outside or after work debauchery.  That is why Southend and NoDa office is exploding (and, if that growth continues, has the potential to revitalize Uptown).

Highway widening is just going to choke any diversification of Uptown off before it gets started.

This is a great comparison. The city of Atlanta has been doing some really remarkable urban improvements over the past decade (provided you have enough money to still live there). Its outside of the city itself that is so awful, and (for me) lacks any kind of redeeming value (other than Beauford Highway food). The problem with this dichotomy is that it is SOOOOO hard to get to the city of Atlanta that once I arrive, I am miserable. Its been strangled by its suburbs.

 

 

On 1/25/2023 at 2:32 PM, CLT2014 said:

Charlotte is on a similar path as Atlanta....  For every apartment complex being built near Uptown, there is a family of four buying a 3,000 square foot house out in Indian Land in a massive clear cut subdivision with 800 homes. We haven't contained enough of the growth within Mecklenburg County to prevent us as a metro area from sprawling too far. Really the only thing containing the growth in Meck is traffic is bad enough to keep some people from moving further out for a cheaper / bigger house. 

There is really no plan right now where the areas below (York and Lancaster County) are going to be anything but traffic choked sprawl as these new home developments spring up along country roads. THIS is a huge amount of the growth in metro-Charlotte. This is our path to being Atlanta. 

 

On 1/25/2023 at 2:48 PM, CLT2014 said:

I agree. Highway expansion will just encourage people to think they can live further out, until the sprawl catches up and that road just ends up clogged as well. Then the person that bought in a sprawling development will complain about the sprawling development getting built across the street adding traffic, it will get approved by the county, and then those new residents will complain how the next sprawling development is adding to traffic, it will get approved, et.... round and round we go chopping trees down. 

 

On 1/25/2023 at 2:38 PM, kermit said:

I agree. But this raises the question: why bother to expand 77 in the first place. Atlanta shows us there is no way to keep up with that growth, so why bother spending any money to try, and fail, to accommodate it?

I am willing to bet that population growth in York and Lancaster is a significant fiscal drain on Charlotte (even without road expansion). Lets Build a Wall!

 

On 1/25/2023 at 2:48 PM, CLT2014 said:

I agree. Highway expansion will just encourage people to think they can live further out, until the sprawl catches up and that road just ends up clogged as well. Then the person that bought in a sprawling development will complain about the sprawling development getting built across the street adding traffic, it will get approved by the county, and then those new residents will complain how the next sprawling development is adding to traffic, it will get approved, et.... round and round we go chopping trees down. 

 

On 1/25/2023 at 2:50 PM, JerseyBoy said:

Everyone's entitled to their opinions about an area, as we all have differing experiences or expectations of what a city should be.  But "no redeeming features" and "soul-sucking?" Really?

I lived in Atlanta from 2016 to late 2019. While it definitely got old having to criss-cross town via car and deal with 30+ minute traffic jams just to attend an event or check out a cool restaurant, the city is fortunate to have a dense tree canopy; some of the most kind, pleasant residents around; and, I think, the nation's best food scene after NY and LA. Not to mention all of the amazing global contributions the city and its denizens have made to human rights, the arts and business over the decades. I wasn't in the right place in life to fully appreciate Atlanta when I lived there, but now, I'm proud to say I once called it home.

Slogging through the 'burbs of northern Fulton, Cherokee or Gwinnett Counties isn't fun -- I'll give you that! But there are some really awesome people -- and experiences -- to be had in all of those locales if you're willing to dig a little, venture off the beaten path or hop out of your car.

 

23 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Atlanta's inter city neighborhoods have density and old historic areas that no one here seems to note. The beltline in Atlanta makes South End look tiny. Midtown is densifying at a rate that is almost unmatched nationwide. While Atlanta sprawls, it still maintains landscaping that Texas cities will never have. Marta has a decent foothold, and development is finally starting to focus on Marta routes, plus a subway into the domestic airport terminal is as good as any city in the country. While it sprawls, it maintains a VERY affordable real estate market with an extremely diverse make up of job markets. 

Georgia is staking its future growth on EVs and will likely be a national leader very soon. 

 

21 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

The responses are really interesting perspectives & discussion! 

The only other thing I will pose regarding Atlanta is does Charlotte not appear as sprawly as a metropolitan area  (despite the Atlanta core being much larger and denser than CLT) simply because ATL has like 3 million+ more people than Charlotte?  That’s why I was wondering if anyone remembers how Atlanta was in the late 1980’s versus 2023 Charlotte? I think MARTA rail started in the late 70’s. Most of the Urbanity was downtown. 

I just wonder how much of Atlanta seeming more sprawl is simply because it’s more than double in size.

 

 

There was a time when I think several posters and myself didn’t want SouthEnd to grow tall before uptown and midtown filled out because they didn’t want to be like Atlanta and kept pointing out that uptown was filling out. Now, maybe within a couple years, SouthEnd will have multiple towers U/C and uptown could very well just have 1 (The hotel above Carolina Theatre)

I think this would’ve happened even without Covid. It was already going there. But I think uptown could’ve squeaked out some more office towers in addition and a little more but I think it would start to become a downtown/midtown scenario. 
 

https://atlanta.curbed.com/2020/2/7/21127120/atlanta-midtown-population-growth-apartment-home-construction

I still think Charlotte is in slow motion becoming a slightly more sprawling and slightly less dense version of Atlanta even though it doesn’t seem as apparent yet (but will as Ballantyne & Concord, etc continue to grow)

 

(FYI to relate it to the thread. If we don’t get serious with mass transit… our growth will either start to have no choice but to sprawl or highway expansions maybe and Kermit and a few others already stated why that’s not a great formula, etc and I agree with that but. I digress. And I only mention it *because* Tim Moore keeps being openly pro highway and it’s like. Is that the future he is fighting for? Giant highways (assuming Charlotte one day hits 6 million) is what Tim Moore thinks will make the region more desirable? 

As someone who lived and spent a decade of my professional life in Metro Atlanta but15 years in total, I disagree.  Charlotte is in a much better position at the threshold of being a metro of 3M+ than Metro Atlanta at its comparable size.  This is longwinded but provides context.

When Metro Atlanta was a threshold of being 3M metro, it was blocked by the now-City of Sandy Springs in northern Fulton County, and repeatedly blocked by the areas that are now Brookhaven, Dunwoody in Dekalb County, and the former Chattahoochee Plantation municipality in eastern Cobb County during that time.  In other words, the City of Atlanta was repeatedly blocked from becoming the largest municipal body to dedicate development patterns.  Furthermore, I did part of my graduate level dissertation literature review on all the heavy rail transit system in North America, and MARTA has been sh*t for any influence on the development patterns until the 2010s.   Also, I worked in the community development sector for several years and co-authored several SPI (Special Public Interest) zoning districts that exist now, which are TOD zoning districts, within the City of Atlanta Euclidean zoning code, circa 1982, and it is still garbage.  The City of Atlanta is still 5 years from doing a zoning and development code rewrite because they are afraid if they do a 60-day moratorium on development applications or permits the developers will go elsewhere.  They have done several zoning code band-aides that have only made this even worse and more arduous for TOD development.  The only reason you see density in Downtown and Midtown Atlanta around MARTA Red and Gold lines is the same reason you are seeing major development density along the LYNX Blue Line. It's accessibility and the direct access to the extremely limited grid patterns that exists in Metro Atlanta around those areas.  Also, the only reason the Buckhead core portion of Atlanta is denser than anything in Metro Charlotte because it is the same reason you are seeing development around SouthPark because of the existence of Lenox Square/Phipps Plaza (all three are owned by Simon Properties).  It wasn't until the late 2010s that developments have come even remotely oriented towards the 2 MARTA rail lines which split right around the two Simon-owned malls.  

The fact that Charlotte has achieve its zoning code being merged with the development regulations into an UDO (unified development code) that incorporates TOD zoning into its regulations is amazing.  Yeah, Charlotte doesn't have a Grant Park or Ansley Park but Dilworth, Elizabeth, the Plaza, all of the adjacent inner north intown neighborhoods from Wesley Height, WestEnd, etc. all are very beautiful and actually more scenic than Atlanta's inner neighborhoods.  SouthPark, Myers Park, to Wendover all the way to Ballantyne Charlotte still are more scenically beautiful than Lenox Park to Buckhead in north Atlanta.  Furthermore, Atlanta is struggling to do basic rezonings, special exceptions for parking reductions, variances, special administrative variances (in Atlanta they are called Special Administrative Permits/SAPs), special use permits, and allowing accessory dwelling units (ADUs) within existing single family residential zoning districts, and barely contemplating the Missing Middle housing component outside of the MR-MM/Multifamily Residential-Missing Middle zoning district.  This is all because of the Euclidean zoning code from 1982 still in effect there. The surrounding jurisdictions that refuse to coordinate with the City of Atlanta makes things even worse.   All of these things show Atlanta is way behind Charlotte on implementing smart growth and adaptive land use and development regulations.  

Anyone who compares the Atlanta Beltline to the Charlotte Rail Trail and says the former is better than the latter is not sure what they are saying.  I've said this several times, Atlanta is envious of Charlotte's Rail Trail.  Not only has Charlotte achieved a feat that Atlanta won't be able to achieve at the earliest the 2030s, but also has a multi-use path that is accommodating a major Tier 1 rail transit component.  Even then it will be a likely a streetcar rather than a fast-moving light rail like LYNX Rapid Transit.

On to I-77 South Managed/Express Lanes, this can be an asset to our regional transit infrastructure.  It will be utilized like how Dallas, Houston, Los Angeles, Washington, Miami, and even Atlanta use their regional express/managed lane system as de facto busways for their BRT.  The I-77 South Managed Lanes, regards of if it will be a P3 or fully state-funded, will be the direct connection CATS has been waiting for to execute the I-77 South BRT to the LYNX I-485 Transit Station which will also connect to the Ballantyne when implemented. 

Anyone who says Atlanta's food scene is 2nd best to NY or LA hasn't traveled much.  Chicago, Washington, and Houston are WAY BETTER than Atlanta's food scene.  Atlanta is a hodgepodge like Charlotte.  Fox Brothers (Bros.) BBQ and Fat Matt's are both overrated and whack BBQ joints.  You want good and tasty food then go to the places black folks frequent like here in Charlotte because we know how to season our food.  In both Atlanta and Charlotte, black chefs and restaurants are the ones who make the food scene goes round.  Furthermore, like Charlotte, Atlanta's food scene and culture reflects its overall region and the native places have been replaced or curated by the transplants that add to the food scene.  In other words, anyone doing Charlotte food scene because it doesn't have a marquee named restaurant(s) obviously haven't been to Mert's, Leah & Louise, Cuzzo's on Tuskaseegee, Lulu's, Freshwaters, and many more black-owned places along with the boatload of Caribbean cuisines from Spanish to Portuguese to Creole speaking folks, Mediterranean (Greek, Lebanese, Somali/Ethiopian, etc.), the wide variety of Asian from East to South Asia cuisines.  Charlotte has several areas comparable to Buford Highway as that's it for them.  We have Sugar Creek Road/The Plaza area of East Charlotte, North Tryon going towards University City, South Tryon in Steele Creek, Monroe Road/Independence, Central Avenue around Eastland, and South Boulevard all global cuisine corridors all within the I-485 beltway.

For the record, all of the major human rights people that claimed Atlanta as home except for MLK were all from Alabama originally including John Lewis.  If you want to thank the world for human and civil rights change matters, then thank us native black Alabamians like me because Atlanta didn't do anything other than claim people who weren't from there.  

Edited January 26, 2023 by kayman

[RANYC]

38 minutes ago, kayman said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As someone who lived and spent a decade of my professional life in Metro Atlanta 15 years, I disagree.  Charlotte is in a much better position at the threshold of being a metro of 3M+ than Metro Atlanta at its comparable size.  This is longwinded by provides context.

When Metro Atlanta was a threshold of being 3M metro, it was blocked by the now-City of Sandy Springs in northern Fulton County, and repeatedly blocked by the areas that are now Brookhaven, Dunwoody in Dekalb County, and the former Chattahoochee Plantation municipality in eastern Cobb County during that time.  In other words, the City of Atlanta was repeatedly blocked from becoming the largest municipal body to dedicate development patterns.  Furthermore, I did part of my graduate level dissertation literature review on all the heavy rail transit system in North America, and MARTA has been sh*t for any influence on the development patterns until the 2010s.   Also, I worked in the community development sector for several years and co-authored several SPI (Special Public Interest) zoning districts that exist now, which are TOD zoning districts, within the City of Atlanta Euclidean zoning code, circa 1982, and it is still garbage.  The City of Atlanta is still 5 years from doing a zoning and development code rewrite because they are afraid if they do a 60-day moratorium on development applications or permits the developers will go elsewhere.  They have done several zoning code band-aides that have only made this even worse and more arduous for TOD development.  The only reason you see density in Downtown and Midtown Atlanta around MARTA Red and Gold lines is the same reason you are seeing major development density along the LYNX Blue Line. It's accessibility and the direct access to the extremely limited grid patterns that exists in Metro Atlanta around those areas.  Also, the only reason the Buckhead core portion of Atlanta is denser than anything in Metro Charlotte because it is the same reason you are seeing development around SouthPark because of the existence of Lenox Square/Phipps Plaza (all three are owned by Simon Properties).  It wasn't until the late 2010s that developments have come even remotely oriented towards the 2 MARTA rail lines which split right around the two Simon-owned malls.  

The fact that Charlotte has achieve its zoning code being merged with the development regulations into an UDO (unified development code) that incorporates TOD zoning into its regulations is amazing.  Yeah, Charlotte doesn't have a Grant Park or Ansley Park but Dilworth, Elizabeth, the Plaza, all of the adjacent inner north intown neighborhoods from Wesley Height, WestEnd, etc. all are very beautiful and actually more scenic than Atlanta's inner neighborhoods.  SouthPark, Myers Park, to Wendover all the way to Ballantyne Charlotte still are more scenically beautiful than Lenox Park to Buckhead in north Atlanta.  Furthermore, Atlanta is struggling to do basic rezonings, special exceptions for parking reductions, variances, special administrative variances (in Atlanta they are called Special Administrative Permits/SAPs), special use permits, and allowing accessory dwelling units (ADUs) within existing single family residential zoning districts, and barely contemplating the Missing Middle housing component outside of the MR-MM/Multifamily Residential-Missing Middle zoning district.  This is all because of the Euclidean zoning code from 1982 still in effect there. The surrounding jurisdictions that refuse to coordinate with the City of Atlanta makes things even worse.   All of these things show Atlanta is way behind Charlotte on implementing smart growth and adaptive land use and development regulations.  

Anyone who compares the Atlanta Beltline to the Charlotte Rail Trail and says the former is better than the latter is not sure what they are saying.  I've said this several times, Atlanta is envious of Charlotte's Rail Trail.  Not only has Charlotte achieved a feat that Atlanta won't be able to achieve at the earliest the 2030s, but also has a multi-use path that is accommodating a major Tier 1 rail transit component.  Even then it will be a likely a streetcar rather than a fast-moving light rail like LYNX Rapid Transit.

On to I-77 South Managed/Express Lanes, this can be an asset to our regional transit infrastructure.  It will be utilized like how Dallas, Houston, Los Angeles, Washington, Miami, and even Atlanta use their regional express/managed lane system as de facto busways for their BRT.  The I-77 South Managed Lanes, regards of if it will be a P3 or fully state-funded, will be the direct connection CATS has been waiting for to execute the I-77 South BRT to the LYNX I-485 Transit Station which will also connect to the Ballantyne when implemented. 

Anyone who says Atlanta's food scene is 2nd best to NY or LA hasn't traveled much.  Chicago, Washington, and Houston are WAY BETTER than Atlanta's food scene.  Atlanta is a hodgepodge like Charlotte.  Fox Brothers (Bros.) BBQ and Fat Matt's are both overrated and whack BBQ joints.  You want good and tasty food then go to the places black folks frequent like here in Charlotte because we know how to season our food.  In both Atlanta and Charlotte, black chefs and restaurants are the ones who make the food scene goes round.  Furthermore, like Charlotte, Atlanta's food scene and culture reflects its overall region and the native places have been replaced or curated by the transplants that add to the food scene.  In other words, anyone doing Charlotte food scene because it doesn't have a marquee named restaurant(s) obviously haven't been to Mert's, Leah & Louise, Cuzzo's on Tuskaseegee, Lulu's, Freshwaters, and many more black-owned places along with the boatload of Caribbean cuisines from Spanish to Portuguese to Creole speaking folks, Mediterranean (Greek, Lebanese, Somali/Ethiopian, etc.), the wide variety of Asian from East to South Asia cuisines.  Charlotte has several areas comparable to Buford Highway as that's it for them.  We have Sugar Creek Road/The Plaza area of East Charlotte, North Tryon going towards University City, South Tryon in Steele Creek, Monroe Road/Independence, Central Avenue around Eastland, and South Boulevard all global cuisine corridors all within the I-485 beltway.

For the record, all of the major human rights people that claimed Atlanta as home except for MLK were all from Alabama originally including John Lewis.  If you want to thank the world for human and civil rights change matters, then thank us native black Alabamians like me because Atlanta didn't do anything other than claim people who weren't from there.  

Yes, that was dense but very compelling.  Appreciate the education.  Also, thanks for articulating a sense I was getting from visiting Atlanta but couldn’t quite put my finger on the driving factors.  I really do feel Charlotte’s UDO was a monumental achievement, and also find the development patterns around our light rail line to be far more community and context-oriented than what I see in Atlanta, including what’s planned like the Asian mall redevelopment and flywheel projects.  I also find center city Charlotte to be far more walkable all around than most places I visit in in-town Atlanta.  I also hadn’t considered the BRT opportunities that will come with toll widening of I77.  I live in Wesley heights and have been a bit worried about tree loss and encroachment on Frazier park, but I suppose BRT would be a worthy benefit of widening.

Edited January 26, 2023 by RANYC

[Desert Power]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:17 PM, kayman said:

 

As someone who lived and spent a decade of my professional life in Metro Atlanta but15 years in total, I disagree.  Charlotte is in a much better position at the threshold of being a metro of 3M+ than Metro Atlanta at its comparable size.  This is longwinded but provides context.

Anyone who says Atlanta's food scene is 2nd best to NY or LA hasn't traveled much.  Chicago, Washington, and Houston are WAY BETTER than Atlanta's food scene.  Atlanta is a hodgepodge like Charlotte.  

Charlotte has several areas comparable to Buford Highway as that's it for them.  We have Sugar Creek Road/The Plaza area of East Charlotte, North Tryon going towards University City, South Tryon in Steele Creek, Monroe Road/Independence, Central Avenue around Eastland, and South Boulevard all global cuisine corridors all within the I-485 beltway.

 

Love your post, just a few personal comments broken out:

1. Charlotte is in a great position right now, but seems like we will squander it. We need leaders with a vision to execute on the next phase. Atlanta is a cautionary tale on some metrics, but has been implementing good urban projects lately
2. Agreed. Not an Atlanta hater, but I don't think it is even close to the top 5 food city discussion here
3. I don't think we have any areas close to Buford Highway. We have global corridors, but I do not find them of particularly high quality. For Asian cuisine, I feel like Charlotte trails Raleigh. Our dim sum game, in particular, is a big weakness.

[kayman]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:11 PM, Desert Power said:

Love your post, just a few personal comments broken out:

1. Charlotte is in a great position right now, but seems like we will squander it. We need leaders with a vision to execute on the next phase. Atlanta is a cautionary tale on some metrics, but has been implementing good urban projects lately
2. Agreed. Not an Atlanta hater, but I don't think it is even close to the top 5 food city discussion here
3. I don't think we have any areas close to Buford Highway. We have global corridors, but I do not find them of particularly high quality. For Asian cuisine, I feel like Charlotte trails Raleigh. Our dim sum game, in particular, is a big weakness.

Yessir. Ironically Atlanta & Charlotte are both in the same boat of lacking visionary leadership at the moment. Yet both cities are producing good urban projects.

Something Atlanta has that Charlotte doesn't is a mayor-council government. It's also why Charlotte needs a strong mayor position in a separate executive branch from city council that can lead, become the city's biggest and best lobbyist in Raleigh and Washington, and lead the city by beacon key partnerships with the business community for future city growth.  Furthermore, Charleston has a strong, mayor-council city government, which has helped it become South Carolina's largest municipality. https://library.municode.com/sc/charleston/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=CICO_CH2AD_ARTIINGE_S2-1FOGO Also North Charleston as well,  so it's not a foreign concept in the Carolinas. https://www.northcharleston.org/government/office-of-the-mayor/ They both preside over council meetings so and are chief executive officers of the respective cities like the current setup in Charlotte now.

I was just in Raleigh for several days last week for business, tbh I wasn't really impressed.  Raleigh is even with Charlotte on differing Asian cuisines front. It's a niche there but nothing mind-blowing on the Asian cuisines front.

I think Buford Highway looks like that as it's one 8-mile corridor of international businesses. It's more of scale versus variety imho. I like the dispersal of these clusters throughout Charlotte which benefits us all rather than concentrated in or along one area. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by kayman

[southslider]

Adding just one rail line will no more fix Charlotte than adding free lanes to 77.  The more effective plan is a package of smaller plans across more communities. Quick wins without raising taxes will provide more areas with more benefits.

[JRCLT]

Adding just one rail line will no more fix Charlotte than adding free lanes to 77.  The more effective plan is a package of smaller plans across more communities. Quick wins without raising taxes will provide more areas with more benefits.

One more rail-line isn’t going fix Charlotte… but what better time to even secure federal funding for all of these projects than the next several years. Charlotte will need more mass transit or those smaller projects won’t be able to support cross city travel. Cars will never be an option at that point. They will still be a necessity for a majority of people. People don’t live and work in the same neighborhood. Vast areas of SFH zoning ensured that. “Smaller plans” is a vague to me. What does that mean? More Busses? (We know that’s got issues) Bike infrastructure? Pedestrian infrastructure? Greenways? All that was already planned to be included in that transit plan. It isn’t just funding for the rail line despite it being the center of it all…it can carry the most people at the fastest. It’s a backbone. Are quick wins enough to ensure charlotte can approach a status less reliant on cars in the future? I think the rail line has been derailed enough and kicking the ball further down the line is just going to make getting around the city more difficult.

[CLT2014]

For the Silver Line, there have been tons of maps around the routing through Uptown... does anybody have more granular information on how CATS plans to execute the southern portion of the route? It seems like the real estate acquisition will be extensive... for example, the LLPA map shows a station at Amity Gardens and Sharon Amity at the locations of the X on the Satellite image below. It doesn't look possible to connect these dots without acquiring numerous single family homes via Eminent Domain or basically building elevated stations in the highway ($$$). https://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/silver-line/Pages/default.aspx

 

Also through Village Lakes... is the green space wide enough or will some of the apartment buildings need to be torn down to build the station? These apartments are relatively affordable, so will be interesting to see what happens to rent here / if the existing structures remain.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by CLT2014

[RANYC]

On 1/28/2023 at 5:17 AM, southslider said:

Adding just one rail line will no more fix Charlotte than adding free lanes to 77.  The more effective plan is a package of smaller plans across more communities. Quick wins without raising taxes will provide more areas with more benefits.

I’m not in total disagreement with this post. There are so many small and medium-scale needs to make neighborhood streets safer with more robust pedestrian connections all across the city that I do think so much capital-intensity for a single line should be debated.

[RANYC]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:14 AM, JeanClt said:

One more rail-line isn’t going fix Charlotte… but what better time to even secure federal funding for all of these projects than the next several years. Charlotte will need more mass transit or those smaller projects won’t be able to support cross city travel. Cars will never be an option at that point. They will still be a necessity for a majority of people. People don’t live and work in the same neighborhood. Vast areas of SFH zoning ensured that. “Smaller plans” is a vague to me. What does that mean? More Busses? (We know that’s got issues) Bike infrastructure? Pedestrian infrastructure? Greenways? All that was already planned to be included in that transit plan. It isn’t just funding for the rail line despite it being the center of it all…it can carry the most people at the fastest. It’s a backbone. Are quick wins enough to ensure charlotte can approach a status less reliant on cars in the future? I think the rail line has been derailed enough and kicking the ball further down the line is just going to make getting around the city more difficult.

Have we explored public-private partnership (“PPP”) models for light rail expansion/extension here?  If we can add toll lanes through PPP, why not explore the same for other modes, especially given the argument that light rail really is more economic stimulus than broad-based transit problem-solving utility.

Edited January 30, 2023 by RANYC

[kermit]

9 hours ago, RANYC said:

Have we explored public-private partnership (“PPP”) models for light rail expansion/extension here?  If we can add toll lanes through PPP, why not explore the same for other modes, especially given the argument that light rail really is more economic stimulus than broad-based transit problem-solving utility.

The fare revenue is not there even in the best conditions. Transit is generally built for riders 20 years in the future, not folks who start riding on day 1. Investors are not willing to wait that long. It’s made worse in a world where people wonder about remote work taking hold -- investors really don't want to touch transit.

The Gateway Station example also shows us that PPP does not necessarily speed things up.

The only place that PPP's have worked well for transit are when the private companies are also real estate developers (see the MTR corporation in Hong Kong). TIF strategies can work for this in the US, but that is not really a PPP. Not sure why CATS / Mecklenburg have been so reluctant to embrace TIF, its worked reasonably well elsewhere and we can certainly see that development follows transit here.

Edited January 31, 2023 by kermit

[southslider]

5 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

... does anybody have more granular information on how CATS plans to execute the southern portion of the route?

Search Charlotte Explorer Map and you can see an interactive map with aerial and parcel layers along with the Silver Line alignment. The latest design combines the Pierson Dr and Sharon Amity Rd interchanges with a new frontage road between the two.  The Village Lake area would see several apartment buildings taken for a more direct alignment between Wallace Rd and Monroe Rd.

[CLT2014]

17 minutes ago, southslider said:

Search Charlotte Explorer Map and you can see an interactive map with aerial and parcel layers along with the Silver Line alignment. The latest design combines the Pierson Dr and Sharon Amity Rd interchanges with a new frontage road between the two.  The Village Lake area would see several apartment buildings taken for a more direct alignment between Wallace Rd and Monroe Rd.

Very cool map.... and dang the eminent domain on the routing is no joke. Very insightful on why the cost of the line is going to be pretty high. LOT of properties to demo. 

[ajfunder]

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Very cool map.... and dang the eminent domain on the routing is no joke. Very insightful on why the cost of the line is going to be pretty high. LOT of properties to demo. 

Axios posted about the Silver Line again today. Just sampling from the Instagram comments which had fairly good engagement/reaction. Like it or not, Axios is well followed even if their reporting is iffy/click-bait-like at times.

Main summary: Airport connection is a political winner. Probably half of the 200 comments mentioned wanting a line to the airport.

Is it just me or is CATS really failing to capitalize by marketing the fact the Silver Line hits the airport (kinda). Furthermore, CATS really should reconsider realigning the route to better serve the airport but that’s another issue in itself. Just some observations and thoughts.

Edited January 30, 2023 by ajfunder

[RANYC]

41 minutes ago, ajfunder said:

Is it just me or is CATS really failing 

no, it's not just you

[kermit]

This may be the least competent journalism / most idiotic public official I have seen in a long while. I certainly hope Leigh Altman's feelings don't get hurt because a guy using a screen name of a Muppet called her a moron on a message board.

"barely used parking deck nearby," "vacant land"

gezzus.

https://charlotte.axios.com/319171/decision-time-where-will-charlottes-next-light-rail-take-us/

Edited January 31, 2023 by kermit

[Nathan2]

 

Face Palm.... If this is truly the new plan going forward I am afraid that busses and transit are about to become an afterthought. Mayor Vi Lyles does not seem to have the political will or care to do the right thing for the long term benefit of the city. She just does not exude any confidence at all. 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Nathan2

[kayman]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:01 AM, CLT2014 said:

For the Silver Line, there have been tons of maps around the routing through Uptown... does anybody have more granular information on how CATS plans to execute the southern portion of the route? It seems like the real estate acquisition will be extensive... for example, the LLPA map shows a station at Amity Gardens and Sharon Amity at the locations of the X on the Satellite image below. It doesn't look possible to connect these dots without acquiring numerous single family homes via Eminent Domain or basically building elevated stations in the highway ($$$). https://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/silver-line/Pages/default.aspx

 

Also through Village Lakes... is the green space wide enough or will some of the apartment buildings need to be torn down to build the station? These apartments are relatively affordable, so will be interesting to see what happens to rent here / if the existing structures remain.

 

 

It is proposed to be parallel to Independence on an elevated structure in most places. It's not proposed to venture away from Independence until Wallace/Sharon Forest.

A demo of some of those apartments and duplexes are possible along Village Lake Drive. It's proposed to be elevated through this area with topographic contouring where possible. 

21 hours ago, kermit said:

The fare revenue is not there even in the best conditions. Transit is generally built for riders 20 years in the future, not folks who start riding on day 1. Investors are not willing to wait that long. It’s made worse in a world where people wonder about remote work taking hold -- investors really don't want to touch transit.

The Gateway Station example also shows us that PPP does not necessarily speed things up.

The only place that PPP's have worked well for transit are when the private companies are also real estate developers (see the MTR corporation in Hong Kong). TIF strategies can work for this in the US, but that is not really a PPP. Not sure why CATS / Mecklenburg have been so reluctant to embrace TIF, its worked reasonably well elsewhere and we can certainly see that development follows transit here.

They know that.  They're too afraid to stick their necks out to do more MSDs that would have tax incremental financing (TIF) for the properties within the boundaries.  Blame it on a governmental structure who still operates like it's a small town with part-time elected officials...  If it wants to be a major city then it needs to operate like one.  

[kayman]

On 1/30/2023 at 5:04 PM, ajfunder said:

Axios posted about the Silver Line again today. Just sampling from the Instagram comments which had fairly good engagement/reaction. Like it or not, Axios is well followed even if their reporting is iffy/click-bait-like at times.

Main summary: Airport connection is a political winner. Probably half of the 200 comments mentioned wanting a line to the airport.

Is it just me or is CATS really failing to capitalize by marketing the fact the Silver Line hits the airport (kinda). Furthermore, CATS really should reconsider realigning the route to better serve the airport but that’s another issue in itself. Just some observations and thoughts.

CATS management has an overzealously data/stat heavy philosophy. They over-focus on data and not political will. They don't want to acknowledge that political will always win in the end. They know the Airport to Uptown route is the most politically expedient leg of the LYNX Silver Line.  However, the notion of the Route 27 has the highest ridership in the system so that's why the Uptown to Matthews portion is pushed.

That's why MTC is always asking questions about who made this decision and it's crickets from CATS management.

20 hours ago, kermit said:

This may be the least competent journalism / most idiotic public official I have seen in a long while. I certainly hope Leigh Altman's feelings don't get hurt because a guy using a screen name of a Muppet called her a moron on a message board.

"barely used parking deck nearby," "vacant land"

gezzus.

https://charlotte.axios.com/319171/decision-time-where-will-charlottes-next-light-rail-take-us/

I don't think what she said is idiotic. She is actually one of the most engaged elected officials on regional transportation.

Believe it or not she understands the task at hand with CATS, but the problem is as long as CATS is a CoC entity it's going to continue to be nonsensical. Altman is playing the long game by being publicly neutral.

Edited January 31, 2023 by kayman

[Desert Power]

Charlotte lobbyist to City Council: Current transit plan is 'dead on arrival' in Raleigh

Seems like we're going to have try again with hopefully better city leadership (and a better lobbyist).

[kermit]

15 minutes ago, Desert Power said:

Charlotte lobbyist to City Council: Current transit plan is 'dead on arrival' in Raleigh

Seems like we're going to have try again with hopefully better city leadership (and a better lobbyist).

Time for the “Great State of Mecklenburg” to become the 51st state. 

Honestly, what would we loose?

[nyxmike]

What roads is Tim Moore talking about? Aren't most of the roads that need widening the responsibility of the state/NCDOT, so why does Charlotte need to pay for it? What am I missing??

[kermit]

On 1/31/2023 at 10:20 AM, kayman said:

I don't think what she said is idiotic. She is actually one of the most engaged elected officials on regional transportation.

Believe it or not she understands the task at hand with CATS, but the problem is as long as CATS is a CoC entity it's going to continue to be nonsensical. Altman is playing the long game by being publicly neutral.

Does she understand? The “barely used” parking deck never opened, presumably due to flawed construction. There is certainly demand for those spaces. The “vacant land” is half county owned and half owned by the same incompetent developer. None of this underutilization has any relationship to existing or future rail in the area — I don’t understand the point was she trying to make by bringing them up.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by kermit