CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[elrodvt]

Edit: this is in reference to Kermit's post about meck. Seems like you can't add a quote as an edit? 

Obviously silly but damn wouldn't it would be fantastic? 

When I lived in Vermont, prior to it becoming progressive, there was a strong (relatively, 20%?) movement to go to Canada. It was fun to discuss but really? Now a days it wouldn't be so fun - instead the a militia would form! 

Edited February 1, 2023 by elrodvt

[JRCLT]

Tim Moore is one well renowned transportation engineer and also a behavioral scientist! He has so much knowledge on how people’s behavior can’t be changed or altered and how transportation networks work. I mean I bet he did some research (or his team) and has data to back up his claims right?? It’s not just because he loves driving and if there were more roads that means traffic will just POOF disappear… nahh!

[CLT2014]

The stars are just not aligning for this thing....

1.) CATS is disorganized and has low public trust right now to execute (bus ops are a dumpster fire, light rail frequencies, et.)
2.) The City Council has some members openly opposed to the plan (Tariq), but the far larger Democratic majority doesn't seem to be passionate about the plan and wanting to put their name behind it / sell it to their constituents. Thus the main voice in the room is the opposition. While it is easy to blame Tariq.... where is the engagement and leadership from the 9 Democrats on seizing the narrative? 
3.) The mayors of the northern suburbs of Huntersville, Cornelius, and Davidson are telling their constituents the plan won't benefit them and there is the bad blood from the Toll Lanes. 
4.) Residents in low income zip codes are about to get hit with a larger property tax bill increase than residents in high income zip codes after the most recent appraisal cycle..... adding additional fuel to low income resident fears that a light rail near their house will just make their property tax bill soar higher (and result in a No vote from them). 
5.) For some anti-gentrification advocates, light rail is getting framed as a way to get banker bros who also own a Jeep Wrangler to work, while ignoring the needs of low income residents and the bus network (i.e. somebody who needs to go from East Charlotte to South Park Mall for work). Increasingly, some Democratic members of City Council whose districts are low income are focusing their transportation message around buses. 
6.) Nobody in government seems to be able to articulate to Raleigh the benefit of the light rail to mobility in Mecklenburg County and the economic development benefits. 
7.) The media / press is not overly enthusiastic about the plan and Op-Eds and articles getting published in major outlets are challenging the plan.
8.) The NCGOP is setting the narrative / assessing if they can get a political win by talking about roads, which they know the public tends to get enthusiastic about. 

All in all, the larger we have become as a city, the more fragmented we also become. We don't seem unified and only the most pro-transit enthusiastic people (like this board) seem really excited about the Silver Line. The stop at the Airport is really the only thing getting anybody excited.... and needs to be a big part of the message to get public opinion behind the plan. 

Public opinion / the story being told to voters is huge.... this seems to be trending more towards the Nashville story (distrust of government and the plan) than the Austin story right now. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by CLT2014

[elrodvt]

Agree, especially 1,4,5!

It could be salvaged if the mayor steps up politically, we find a less regressive funding model slowing gentrification and CATS leadership is suddenly invigorated.

Seems pretty unlikely we can pull all that off? Especially funding which I assume would need state help. We don't exactly have any visionaries stepping forward.

Maybe the climate just isn't right  and we should focus on buses (job 1), train frequency and moving towards a no fare system. If everyone was proud of CATS the fight with the state would be winnable. 

In summary, I'm not sure I'd even vote for it! So I can imagine what people who don't follow the topic think. 

 

[RANYC]

I’d agree with this assessment.  I’ve actually stopped paying attention to transit plan updates because I do believe it’s dead.  

I’m disappointed that there wasn’t a clear and convincing strategy for transit implementation before this mayor and former council approved $50 million in funding for design.  I think more work should have been done on Raleigh and public engagement to boost confidence levels in a capital-intensive plan before committing $50 million in funding for what’s turning out to be a phantom line.  

I believe the leadership model in the city is broken.  I’ve said it before and will say it again that this mayor has got to go.  She is a terribly poor and incoherent voice, IMO, and I don’t see her rallying the troops whatsoever.  I know she’s part-time and ceremonial in certain respects, but she is woefully inept in communicating enough to rally anyone behind anything likely to be seen through to completion.

If we can get out of this debacle at least funding a rail line from uptown to the airport terminal to event venue Bojangles Coliseum, I’d be happy.  I believe you could have gotten the corporate community as big boosters for a multi-dimensional transit strategy, but I do believe that engagement capacity was squandered by a hastily-organized, ill-conceived mayor’s equity initiative which has used a buzz word to amass funding for deployment that won’t solve anything.

Edited February 1, 2023 by RANYC

[kermit]

I agree, this plan is not moving forward. While we wait for the city to regroup there are quite a few things that can be done to substantially improve mobility and generate goodwill for a future transit expansion.

• Resume pre-pandemic Blue Line frequencies. Install countdown clocks, make a community / corporate push to sell passes. (E.g. ‘rent this sexy 2br unit at Spectrum Southend and get a year of free transit’)
• Install signal preemption on the Gold Line (and a giant bull bar on each Gold Line unit so tow trucks are no longer needed to move parking scofflaws)
• Hire a competent CATS leader who pays attention to operations and can change the culture of that dumpster fire of an organization (it was  HUGE mistake not to fire  Lewis sooner)
• Get North Meck toll lane BRT running ASAP
• Bike infrastructure! (Tons on money in the infrastructure bill for this, no state approval required). Stop the whole "you gotta have a car" talking point by providing workable options for the folks who live intown!
• Actually implement the neighborhood plans that we already have (money is an issue here, but some walkability improvements can be funded via the Infrastructure Bill)
• Find some innovative ways to connect the medical school complex to activity centers BEFORE IT GETS BUILT! (see bike infrastructure above)
• Cap or removal of the Belk also needs to be part of the plan. Making everything inside route 4 part of a single walk/bike network is critical to the city’s future.
• Help uptown restructure into an actual activity center (rather than an office park). People need to want to come to uptown. CCCP, this is YOUR job.
• Plan, plan, plan! Find money in the couch cushions to create fundable plans for LRT and streetcar expansion, do the public outreach so we are ready to go as soon as we get the funding question squared away (I am betting there is sufficient money in the current transit tax to fund most of this). If there is a plan for a Silver Line tunnel through uptown, it might get money the next time federal dollars fall from the sky (e.g. stimulus or another infrastructure bill or a carbon tax). No plan = no money, don;t make this mistake again.
• Have a gold-plated Red Line plan available to show the state to use as leverage on NS when the NCRR lease gets renegotiated.  
• Sketch a gold plated regional  rail network (with a nice big Kings Mountain service yard) plan to show the state (even if it is financially unrealistic). Give the surrounding counties a vision of how they might be connected to Charlotte if THEY can find the money for it. When the next 10s of billions I-85 widening plan comes up the state will then need to explain why that is a better thing to spend money on than regional rail
• Part of planning efforts need to highlight small improvements that might be useful philanthropic projects. The corporate community has been awfully quiet about this round of transit expansion -- we need to cultivate the next generation of Hugh McColls and Rolf Neils.
• Planning also needs to include explicit elements to increase supply/access  of affordable housing -- this is now critical for federal funding.
• Discuss (but just discuss) implementing a congestion fee and parking tax on drivers coming into uptown (with the revenue earmarked to fund transit) . Develop political awareness of this possibility so it can be used as negotiating leverage (prob should wait on this until remote work meets its quickly approaching end)

Edited February 6, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

I agree with all the above stated, especially Kermit’s suggestions on improving mobility otherwise.

Pardon me for being political (seriously not trying to get into R vs. D). But if Democrats controlled NC, Charlotte & the Triangle would definitely be moving mountains in terms of mass transit. I would imagine Billions on top of this *historic* Infrastructure money would be poured into transit including potentially striking deals with some RR operators. 

It’s almost as if the infrastructure is peanuts for NC. Yeah, expanded highways, replaced bridges, whatever. But around the country it’s mass funding getting many projects off the ground, MD democrats (ignoring Amtrak & Region/Suburban/Commuter trains) are pushing for about 4 light rail lines, spending billions in it. VA has been super aggressive at lighting speed, etc. I really mention VA because it reminds me of NC but controlled by Dems for long enough to completely transform Virginia and got the ball rolling even though a GOP gov is in control. Sort of the opposite of how NC has a Dem Gov. 

It reminds me of why Atlanta has MARTA & Seattle doesn’t. I think NC missed out on a historic generational bill to transform the state. I can’t imagine what would be going on with the Triangle & Charlotte if Dems had full control (not even supermajority) of NC  

[No disrespect to any Republicans on here btw. I truly don’t care how you all vote but from a mobility issue, I just feel NC would be barreling down a different future similar to Virginia if Dems were in power. There’s tens of billions in the past 3 years passed towards rail transit alone and it has been lightening speed]
 

 

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I agree with all the above stated, especially Kermit’s suggestions on improving mobility otherwise.

Pardon me for being political (seriously not trying to get into R vs. D). But if Democrats controlled NC, Charlotte & the Triangle would definitely be moving mountains in terms of mass transit. I would imagine Billions on top of this *historic* Infrastructure money would be poured into transit including potentially striking deals with some RR operators. 

It’s almost as if the infrastructure is peanuts for NC. Yeah, expanded highways, replaced bridges, whatever. But around the country it’s mass funding getting many projects off the ground, MD democrats (ignoring Amtrak & Region/Suburban/Commuter trains) are pushing for about 4 light rail lines, spending billions in it. VA has been super aggressive at lighting speed, etc. I really mention VA because it reminds me of NC but controlled by Dems for long enough to completely transform Virginia and got the ball rolling even though a GOP gov is in control. Sort of the opposite of how NC has a Dem Gov. 

It reminds me of why Atlanta has MARTA & Seattle doesn’t. I think NC missed out on a historic generational bill to transform the state. I can’t imagine what would be going on with the Triangle & Charlotte if Dems had full control (not even supermajority) of NC  

[No disrespect to any Republicans on here btw. I truly don’t care how you all vote but from a mobility issue, I just feel NC would be barreling down a different future similar to Virginia if Dems were in power. There’s tens of billions in the past 3 years passed towards rail transit alone and it has been lightening speed]
 

 

Don't want to go down a political pathway, but I'd always read and heard that former mayor and then former governor, Pat McCrory, was a big booster for the blue line.  I'd also not put it past a democratic-leaning state government to bungle a transit strategy or to mis-sequence funding priorities so that transit designs never quite get off the drawing board.  A failure to meet objectives is really not a monopoly by either party.

Edited February 1, 2023 by RANYC

[kermit]

3 hours ago, RANYC said:

Don't want to go down a political pathway, but I'd always read and heard that former mayor and then former governor, Pat McCrory, was a big booster for the blue line. 

He was a big supporter of the Blue Line, and (IMO) he deserves as much credit for getting the South Line built as anyone. During construction McCrory powered through a ton of political pushback due to budget overruns (due to construction cost inflation) and an organized astro-turf effort finance by Art Pope and his institutional appendages which culminated with their epic loss in the transit tax repeal referendum that was voted on three weeks before the South line opened. McCrory was so pro-transit and pro-urban that I voted for him the first time he ran for governor (he lost). Unfortunately he sold his soul to the Pope ultra-conservatives (the Tea Party at the time) and went to the dark side the second time he ran for (and won) Governor.

Transit wasn't always so partisan. A strong case can be made for the fiscal conservatism of TOD, densification, energy independence and climate issues (for those who observe). In a less partisan world we would be discussing transit as the primary tool for making cities more sustainable and more productive. Unfortunately modern conservatism decided to strongly embrace anti-urban positions as a means of appealing to their increasingly rural base -- even it that means advocating for suicidal economic policies like continued auto-dependence.

Edited February 1, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

Don't want to go down a political pathway, but I'd always read and heard that former mayor and then former governor, Pat McCrory, was a big booster for the blue line.  I'd also not put it past a democratic-leaning state government to bungle a transit strategy or to mis-sequence funding priorities so that transit designs never quite get off the drawing board.  A failure to meet objectives is really not a monopoly by either party.

I think in North Carolina from the time of the  Tea Party & forward, the Republicans of NC are just entirely different than the ones of the Bush era and prior. 

I too voted McCrory/Obama. & id agree McCrory was a good mayor & I think the NC GOP of the past would’ve been friendly to NC Transit or if anything bipartisan in Eastern NC highways & Mass Transit in the urban areas. McCrory went against the majority to bring the Hornets uptown and he pushed for good policy. 

I don’t think NC democrats would bundle it. They’re pretty moderate and agile. I think NC Dems are similar to VA/CO. NC used to be a pretty progressive state (hence the RTP, etc) - lots of working together. 

In any event, whether Dems would bundle it or not, the NC GOP is actively against it. And it’s super popular to be against mass transit and anti-urban policies & nothing is going to happen with mass transit (as far as major expansions etc aside from those CLT can already enhance on its own) unless Dems control both chambers and the executive of NC. Good luck. I don’t see any political fall out because I don’t think the economy will slow whether Charlotte has good urbanity or becomes choked with highways & therefore no consequences. It literally just becomes a matter of: what do North Carolinians want out of their communities, towns & cities. 

Honestly, VA is the blue print for NC on mobility IMO. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[videtur quam contuor]

True, McCrory was a  (the?) major supporter of the Blue line. I was at East West station on the day of the first official run. I was in my historic looking  motorman outfit, with motorman cap, bow tie, vest with pocket watch, fob and chain and as the train came through he was in the cab standing beside the operator and we waved at each other. 

In other McCrory domain news he uttered the famous "South Boulevard is a corridor of crap" comment, truly a pithy synopsis of the very thing. He also supported sidewalks in new and existing parts of the city.  He ran interference on the transit (Blue line) tax when individual members were unlikely to take the lead. The Republicans (there were such on Council then) and Democrats stepped aside and allowed him to be the lightning rod for such issues as he could speak for the city and provide  cover for individual council members and give them a sense of the city mood while they kept their own counsel (pun). He was thus politically valuable to all members.

For latecomers I remember him being upset at televised meetings when there were bottles of purchased water for each member and he could not understand why they were not drinking city water, the most basic city service to any citizen. Walk the walk, to use the hackneyed phrase. The space in his head which was occupied by good sense was vacated and repopulated by ambition.  He became the only sitting governor in NC history to lose re-election*. Now he is on a radio talk show no one listens to.

*support for 77 toll lanes likely sealed that fate.

[kermit]

17 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

In any event, whether Dems would bundle it or not, the NC GOP is actively against it.

But the most frustrating part of all of this is the state was never going to pay for a significant portion of any new transit in Charlotte -- nearly all of the cash for the Silver Line was federal or local. IIRC the state's share was going to be capped at a ridiculously small number. Despite not contributing,  they are dictating what we do  just to score BS, child-like, political points with their rural base.

It’s never cool to tell someone how they should spend their hard-earned (and hard taxed) money, but that is exactly what the NCGOP is doing to Charlotte. The GOP was once known as the party of personal responsibility and small government, yet state level pols who don't represent Charlotte continue to insist on meddling in local issues.

Edited February 2, 2023 by kermit

[MarcoPolo]

This thread is an everything-and-the-kitchen-sink discussion.  Very enjoyable!  

A few points to keep in mind as you continue.  Apples to apples comparisons are possible and valid as long as geography is kept consistent for the places being compared, ie: the physical locations of the communities discussed, such as southeast US, midwest US, west US; and the increment of measure kept non-political, ie: not based on jurisdictional boundaries.  Charlotte and Atlanta are very much an apples to apples comparison regarding their urban structure and physical location, and even though they have a different form of government it is arguable through observation that they have behaved very similarly due to the oversized business power base in both Cities.   The only ingredient that differentiates the two is "time".    In every other way they are the same.   Older brother and younger brother.  Holding physical location consistent and adding time allows you to travel forward or backward along a communities historic arc and make observations that are meaningful, even into the future.  Same can be applied to political ideologies as long as you don't hold a party name as the constant.  As already brought up by a few in reference to former Mayor Pat, ideologies within parties do change over time resulting in beliefs that can be very different from those held before.   A further wrinkle in the "political" discussion is the need to isolate an individual within a party, and where they call home, ie: urban democrat, suburban democrat, rural democrat; urban republican, rural republican, suburban republican, as a partial influence on the approach to their ideology.  A few thoughts to add to the salad bowl of topics on this thread in no particular order...........

Atlanta was always a "bigger city" than Charlotte, and its infrastructure "boom" happened earlier than Charlotte's for many reasons, not least of which was the benefit of having a President from the same State, at a time when the only infrastructure options were highways, freeways, and wide suburban arterials.   While that is still somewhat true, the 70's did not benefit at all from our present understanding that such infrastructure actually dilutes urban "stuff", dispersing it across the landscape.  The photo of Atlanta's Downtown Connector is a prime example.  It is the reason Atlanta's CBD office total (not population total) is not larger, yes you read correctly.... not greater, not denser.   The wonderful aerial of "downtown" Atlanta (Downtown and Midtown which are considered the CBD for the City) posted by CarolinaDayDreaming at the top of this page represents just over 44 million square feet of office space, the Nation's 13 largest downtown.  But, the corridor is just over 3 miles in length!  There are a dozen cities with larger CBD's, including three from our northern neighbor Canada, (Calgary is as large as Atlanta, Montreal significantly larger, and Toronto...well Toronto is the 4th largest CBD in North America, after DC, Chicago...and you guessed it, NYC).   That same 3 mile distance in these cities, and others with larger CBD's, encompass much more office space.   An interesting aside, the Charlotte CBD, is usually defined as Uptown, South End and Elizabeth.   Some add The Plaza.  I do not because of intervening non-office land uses, and an insignificant office total.   Here is an interesting observation.....if you overlay this geography (Clanton Rd to Brookshire Freeway) onto Atlanta's Downtown/Midtown corridor (1-20 Interchange to I-85/I-75 split) you will see they are almost identical in length, and if you smooth out some of the bulges here and there, they are roughly the same shape too.  Charlotte has 26 million square feet in its footprint, just over half of what Atlanta has in its footprint.   Food for thought as Charlotte's CBD continues to grow in the years to come.   A wonderful comparison study opportunity that would inform some of the questions raised by those on this thread.  

Back to the ingredient of "time", Atlanta was a victim of substantial State and Federal Highway dollars, which is why the City has such an extensive highway system.  MARTA is an interesting aberration in that same period of time, one caused by the local desire to be recognized as world class (similar to the City's infatuation with hosting the Olympics) and not truly an endeavor based on mobility freedom.   Because MARTA was mostly built along freeways, (sound familiar..... hint, hint!) 40 years were required for suburban development in the City to be  begin to modify in form.   During the 40 years some of you may recall the very racist alternative wording of the initials MARTA?   This achilles heel design flaw is why so little has been added to the system since its inauguration, and why repeated measures to extend it into surrounding counties was, and still is, a battle today.  Fortunately, they did manage to route it through the center of the City, which is a major reason (hint, hint) select suburban stations have experienced turbo charged redevelopment recently.  These mini real estate booms will be the carrot that entices others in the metro to rethink their ideological stance against MARTA.  And, as already argued....this will be precisely the wrong foundation to argue for such an expansion.

In the meantime, Kermit, I like your list of "things to try to implement while we wait for the adults to come back to the table" as regards the Silver Line.   All our sound.  

About Atlanta envy.........

I believe the real reason many verbally fret about Charlotte becoming Atlanta has more to due with repressed envy at Atlanta's "status" which its rapid growth has bestowed it within the national urban pecking order.  Kinda like, "oh, go ahead and brag about your airport, movie studios, music, sports, shopping, rich folk....but look at all your traffic......what a nightmare place to live!  If that's what it takes to have all that then count us out!"   That is every Charlottean's refrain for the last thirty years when any discussion of Atlanta finds its way into a conversation, (often such conversations happen on weekends while driving down to shop at Lenox Mall, see a concert, or stay at a fine hotel).   Meanwhile, if I were to drop you blindfolded in parts of suburban Atlanta from which you could not see towers on the skyline, you would not discern any difference to Charlotte.  If you could go back in a time machine 25 years, the resemblance between the two cities would be even more striking.   And every time Charlotte "achieves" some new milestone shared with Atlanta the fear of becoming Atlanta seems to dissipate, even though, just like Atlanta, every such milestone brings us closer to the traffic nightmare we critique it for.   Kayman, I particularly enjoyed your post about Atlanta.  It's a bit "all over the place" like the discussion on the last few pages of this thread.   Would love to share stories about ATL with you.  It sounds like we may have been working there at similar times through the years?  Your follow up post I'm not so sure about.  Political will is important, but uninformed political will is destructive.  Nobody has properly discussed, presented, debated what transit is and why it's important, and specifically how it can be provided to Charlotte's residents.  As I've stated before, this is CAT's and the City's fault.  In this deep information chasm, politicians and journalists mouthing off and amplifying uninformed opinions only serves to further derail progress.  Your reply to Kermit hints that you believe "political will" is the secret sauce for progress.  This wrongly assumes that politically willed outcomes always represent progress.  This is not the case.  History is replete with examples to the contrary, almost all resulting from a lack of knowledge and understanding.  Kermit was right to disparage the article and quote.  

Back to envy... Atlanta had its teenage growth spurt spatially at the precise moment in time when the certrifugal forces stretching cities across the landscape where at their peak.   And in Atlanta, these forces were turbo charged by the extensive highway system gifted to the metro area by the federal government under Jimmy Carter's presidency.   Charlotte did not receive its "highway gift" until much later.  Had we been unlucky enough to have had the outerbelt completed before the early 80's the City of Charlotte would look much different today.   Fortunately for us, Charlotte's teenage years were largely free of steroid use unlike our bigger brother, who came back from summer camp a walking billboard for popping roids, lol!  Had Atlanta not constructed the highways it did, much of the growth in the suburban office sector scattered along the northern perimeter today would have instead located along the Peachtree corridor.  Imagine more than doubling the office stock from downtown to past Lenox Mall!  The repercussions of that on residential and retail would have been impressive.  Atlanta could have laid claim today to being an "experientially" world class urban place, instead of relying largely on statistics to fill in the many holes in that facade.  One big hole is the food scene.  While "ok", for a City its size, it greatly underperforms.  

My office market is bigger than your office market.........

I know many of you are data geeks.  Through my work I have access to many surveys and studies with all kinds of urban data sets.  I've attached one which may be of interest given the posts about CBD's, office space, comparing them etc.... It is not complete.   It represents several public data surveys from groups like Cushman, JLL and others, but with some proprietary algorithms to parse the variables with more precision.  Don't fixate too much on the exact numbers as it is almost impossible to achieve total accuracy for measures such as these.   Even amongst the providers, the figures vary.   What is important is the ranking of the places and these are pretty accurate.  Charlotte holds up well, especially in new office construction.   The arrows indicate velocity of change based on office market size.   Red is hot, blue is not.  Charlotte is in an exclusive pack of fast movers, joining Vancouver, Austin, and Raleigh     All the others on the list are growing at a slower pace, holding their own, or barely inching forward.   The CBD list is especially interesting if you've never been exposed to such rankings.   I have not provided you the geographies for each CBD, but they are based on industry standard assessments, and where such clusters abut other clusters, but may have an intervening river, lake, park, or freeway corridor, less than a mile in width, my algorithms combine them.   I also have not included government office space, which most providers also break out separately.  

Ok, I couldn't resist!   You will notice that Raleigh does not make the CBD top 26 list......even though it is represented on the other two lists..........hmmmm why is that?  Well, the largest concentration of office space in the Triangle is the RTP, roughly 13,400,000 ft2.  That's over twice as large as downtown Raleigh's 6,544,510 ft2, (if you add government space the total inches up by almost a couple million square feet).   And yes, if you go back to do the same to DC, you would understand why it is widely recognized as the second largest office concentration, and the second largest CBD (well north of 200,000,000 sf2) in North America.  Only NY is bigger.

 

 

 

 

[JRCLT]

Politically not to supersede the limit of relevancy to this thread the polarization of the parties have lead to choosing sides in the majority. Back to transit…it is relatively perceived as a dem/liberal base support which leads rep/conservative to swing to the opposition. The polarization has become a dividing and tripping our neighbors from shear spite. When transit has the ability to solve problems on either side of the scale and voicing concerns and proposing reasonable solutions to say Gentrification…and density. Density keeps rural areas rural and stops sprawl and clogged roadways that cannot support that capacity. Transit makes that density possible and efficient. Transit has fallen into this polarizing social phenomenon when it has the potential to benefit all sides equally and in different ways. Gas tax/registration alone isn’t paying for all roads. So even people who are not driving are paying for roads (These people benefit in other ways not to be mistaken for otherwise). Transit can and is the same way.

Transit should not be a dividing issue, yet it is. It is ridiculous in my opinion that we can’t agree on transit and would rather divert money to add more roads that we are barely managing to maintain btw. Versus rail infrastructure which will reduce car ridership and reduce strain on our roads so less maintenance and less congestion. Transit isn’t magical. These benefits can be enumerated.

“Let’s also think about why land values increase around transit….something becomes valuable as it’s supply and availability is significantly under met by its demand. If a majority of Charlotte had access to transit, it wouldn’t be scarce and would otherwise generally be ubiquitous and generally land values would probably increase marginally in those areas hypothetically (I should look into that…see what’s in the literature about transit availability/access vs it’s impact on land values). Policy could help unsustainable land value growth for those with income unable to keep up.”

^This is more of and written thought than statement^

I’m sure there are other layers of complexity I am unaware of and specific details I’m missing, but overall transit should be a reliable and available public asset or a city. Cars included. For some reason people think you’re trying to take their cars away when someone mentions transit…even the most well served cities by transit still rely on cars and trucks and other road vehicles. People need to stop looking so closely at the infrastructure itself and look at all the benefits/solutions it brings while also avoiding the assumption that having transit is at the expense of cars.

[elrodvt]

7 hours ago, RANYC said:

I’d agree with this assessment.  I’ve actually stopped paying attention to transit plan updates because I do believe it’s dead.  

I’m disappointed that there wasn’t a clear and convincing strategy for transit implementation before this mayor and former council approved $50 million in funding for design.  I think more work should have been done on Raleigh and public engagement to boost confidence levels in a capital-intensive plan before committing $50 million in funding for what’s turning out to be a phantom line.  

I believe the leadership model in the city is broken.  I’ve said it before and will say it again that this mayor has got to go.  She is a terribly poor and incoherent voice, IMO, and I don’t see her rallying the troops whatsoever.  I know she’s part-time and ceremonial in certain respects, but she is woefully inept in communicating enough to rally anyone behind anything likely to be seen through to completion.

If we can get out of this debacle at least funding a rail line from uptown to the airport terminal to event venue Bojangles Coliseum, I’d be happy.  I believe you could have gotten the corporate community as big boosters for a multi-dimensional transit strategy, but I do believe that engagement capacity was squandered by a hastily-organized, ill-conceived mayor’s equity initiative which has used a buzz word to amass funding for deployment that won’t solve anything.

Do you know what it would take to change how we're governed? Is it yet another thing the state needs to approve and thus isn't possible unless the assembly flips? If so, don't see that happening anytime soon. I'm assuming that simply because it's change the GOP would be against it.

 

[Desert Power]

9 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

We don't seem unified and only the most pro-transit enthusiastic people (like this board) seem really excited about the Silver Line.

Even with this piece, you could add point #9 around transit advocates not like the routing along 11th Street through Uptown (I think it is the best option personally). So much of this flows from #1 though, particularly with out bad the Streetcar has been.

[rancenc]

From a recent edition of Carolina Impact concerning BRT lines.

 

[michaelef]

20 minutes ago, rancenc said:

From a recent edition of Carolina Impact concerning BRT lines.

 

Why not both? I think CATS needs to do much better about prioritizing buses but I also think the silver line is needed.

[JRCLT]

From a recent edition of Carolina Impact concerning BRT lines.
 

The shots at Charlotte in the beginning were low blows LOL. The comment about Charlotte not knowing how to pay for it is not necessarily true…more like people in the state stand in the way. Comment about The Charlotte Amtrak stations and Union station being better in comparison is true. We kind of walked into that one with some the delays in CGS and S-Line indecision.

Lots of good points about BRT one thing I could have said to improve the transit plan is maybe include funding for more BRT around Charlotte especially on major roads like route 49, 29, 16, 27. In this case I wonder why (probably because of cost) why they didn’t just run brt off route 21 or 115 to the northern towns. Which would also serve camp north end more easily as well a minor plus. I can kind see some accommodation issues with many properties encroaching on the road…more so on 115 than 21. Which seems to have the room on most of the stretch to accommodate BRT lanes. I’m guessing this was heavily weighed on cost.

I agree with the former CEO said tho! Why not both. Narrator kinda pooped on our idea of light rail.

[KJHburg]

as Ron Tober former CATS CEO said is Charlotte's light rail plan all about development or is about it ridership?   I have said for a long BRT needs to be rolled out in multiple corridors in Charlotte and maybe even down Independence towards Matthews.  Many cities with and without rail are implementing BRT like San Francisco, Atlanta,  Houston, El Paso etc.    I thought transit was about moving people and giving people an option not just a development tool.  Nashville has no BRT or light rail and they have development everywhere in the central city.  

[kermit]

^ BRT is no better than the streetcar if it doesn't have dedicated lanes and signal preemption (worse actually since BRT does not have the same development benefits as rail). Is CATS / CDOT ready to remove car lanes on critical thoroughfares? I am betting the council would rather pay $8 billion out of their own pockets for the Silver Line than take the political heat for removing two car lanes from Providence road.

Edited February 2, 2023 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

Maybe we need to scrap the idea of the Silver Line and just do BRT from Matthews to the Airport and along some other Corridors like the long proposed Red Line and maybe Central Ave..  I still support extending the existing Blue Line to Ballantyne and upgrading to 3 Car Platforms.  These modest proposals as well as the planned Express Buses proposed for Future Toll Lanes (I-485, I-77 & Independence Blvd) would be a much more affordable alternative.

[15895]

NVM

Edited February 2, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

14 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Maybe we need to scrap the idea of the Silver Line and just do BRT from Matthews to the Airport and along some other Corridors like the long proposed Red Line and maybe Central Ave..  I still support extending the existing Blue Line to Ballantyne and upgrading to 3 Car Platforms.  These modest proposals as well as the planned Express Buses proposed for Future Toll Lanes (I-485, I-77 & Independence Blvd) would be a much more affordable alternative.

North Meck BRT is currently in the design phase (CATS is calling it ‘MetroRapid’). It will run in the toll lanes and it serves as a replacement for the Red Line. Its express running pattern means that it will provide faster trips than the Red Line could have. I am not sure of construction start date for it.

I think Metro Rapid is an excellent plan, but it only works because of the toll lanes guaranteeing no traffic on the vast majority of its route. But since those lanes only exist in two places (also Independence blvd)  (thanks to the decision to get rid of the dedicated lanes on Independence) BRT in other parts of town is going to mean some very hard choices and either pissing off car commuters or building just another slow bus.

Many of us have forgotten that we have had an operating BRT line in town for 15 years, Sprinter service to the airport (CATS refers to it as ‘enhanced bus’). CATS made zero hard choices with this route so it runs in mixed traffic and, other than slightly wider stop spacing  is nearly as slow as regular buses. Unfortunately I fear the Sprinter represents what CATS is most likely to build for BRT (a branded bus, some crappy (but better than nothing) stop sheds and onboard payment). Sprinter shows us just how useless BRT can be when it is half assed, and I still maintain that even the best BRT is a waste since it is so easy to downgrade into regular bus service (see Cleveland Health Line for an example of vanishing BRT. It still exists on maps but it only runs every 20 minutes and now uses on board payment which really slows it down)

EDIT: I just checked the most recent CATS Quarterly report and Metro Rapid was nowhere to be found in it. I am puzzled.

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by kermit

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

North Meck BRT is currently in the design phase (CATS is calling it ‘MetroRapid’). It will run in the toll lanes and it serves as a replacement for the Red Line. Its express running pattern means that it will provide faster trips than the Red Line could have. I am not sure of construction start date for it.

I think Metro Rapid is an excellent plan, but it only works because of the toll lanes guaranteeing no traffic on the vast majority of its route. But since those lanes only exist in one place (thanks to the decision to get rid of the dedicated lanes on Independence) BRT in other parts of town is going to mean some very hard choices and either pissing off car commuters or building just another slow bus.

Many of us have forgotten that we have had an operating BRT line in town for 15 years, Sprinter service to the airport (CATS refers to it as ‘enhanced bus’). CATS made zero hard choices with this route so it runs in mixed traffic and, other than slightly wider stop spacing  is nearly as slow as regular buses. Unfortunately I fear the Sprinter represents what CATS is most likely to build for BRT (a branded bus, some crappy (but better than nothing) stop sheds and onboard payment). Sprinter shows us just how useless BRT can be when it is half assed, and I still maintain that even the best BRT is a waste since it is so easy to downgrade into regular bus service (see Cleveland Health Line for an example of vanishing BRT. It still exists on maps but it only runs every 20 minutes and now uses on board payment which really slows it down)

 

It may not be statistically rational, but one force working against CATS and against transit's prospects in general is the growing fear of public assembly and shared spaces in this country.  The news of mass shootings and mass shootings themselves traumatize people in ways we don't even count.  Fear and insecurity in this country are endemic, and I think it's a significant variable in keeping at least a growing measure of people in the confines of their vehicles when they can help it.  

Edited February 2, 2023 by RANYC