CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kayman]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Excluding Cary, Chapel Hill, etc. I see Go Durham/Raleigh/Triangle having higher ridership than Charlotte more so than any other source using the NTD. 

Dunno the exact figures, And the data is becoming less transparent for CATS - but my opinion is most things seem to make CATS look like a laggard. And unless the people demand their politicians do something about it, or people are apathetic to it. Meh, who really cares then. 

Per NTD, CATS has still more riders annually than those 4 Triangle systems combined.

The real reason anything with CATS is not clear is the City of Charlotte treats it like a city department. As result, it's unclear.

 

However, movement is towards an independent regional transit authority in Charlotte sort of like the Triangle Transit Authority aka Go Triangle.  Except it will be responsible for local, express bus routes within Mecklenburg along with the rail components currently operated by CATS.

[elrodvt]

Regarding the parking comment above:

A fairly recent fresh air podcast is an interview with the author of a book about how parking became so messed up in the USA and what's currently being done to improve the situation. Such as reducing or eliminating parking requirements for new residential in urban areas. I'm not finished but liking it so far. 

There's also interesting tidbits such as the legality and ethics? of putting a marker on a spot you dug out (in NE cities) to claim it since you did the work. For example I personally remember seeing lawn chairs in Philly. It's funny to me that it's actually (I think) in law in some cities how long you can mark a spot as yours.

Also NYC offers discounted parking tickets to delivery companies that get tons of double parking tickets. They in turn say they won't contest and nyc takes in 750 or so million. I might have that number mixed up but it was a big #. The big boys like FedEx and UPS pay it. 

Good one to listen to while parked on 77.

[kermit]

One less station on the Silver Line:

Quote

CATS PASSES ON AMITY GARDENS LIGHT RAIL STATION          

“The Charlotte Area Transit System (CATS) is recommending the proposed Amity Gardens light rail station be deleted from planning.  The station was to have been just east of the Eastway Drive interchange off Independence Expressway.  Elevation and adjacent neighborhood issues made the station too costly, inefficient, and user unfriendly to retain.  Eliminating the station will speed up service and provide a smoother, speedier ride through the area.  The Silver Line is planned to serve Bojangles Arena/Ovens Auditorium closer in, and Sharon Amity Rd. further out in the area.

 

A public virtual meeting was held on May 23rd at 5:30 pm to consider light rail maintenance needs for the Silver Line.  Two sites near Matthews are under consideration, and the existing North Brevard light rail yard is expected to be expanded to handle maintenance needs as well.  The meeting will be on the CATS You Tube page."

From the CAPT newsletter

[Third Strike]

8 hours ago, kermit said:

One less station on the Silver Line:

From the CAPT newsletter

Can’t say I’m totally surprised. The station was wedged between a neighborhood and car dealership. Accessibility would have been terrible for this station. I do think this station and area would have had a chance if the old Coliseum Shopping Center had been redeveloped as TOD rather than a car-centric development. 

[southslider]

As closely spaced as the 11th Street and First Ward stations are, it still boggles the mind that there will be no way to transfer easily to Gold Line around Hawthorne or Sunnyside, given how far the Central Avenue and Pecan Avenue stations are spaced.

[TCLT]

2 hours ago, southslider said:

As closely spaced as the 11th Street and First Ward stations are, it still boggles the mind that there will be no way to transfer easily to Gold Line around Hawthorne or Sunnyside, given how far the Central Avenue and Pecan Avenue stations are spaced.

I thought at one point there was a plan to have the Gold Line run through what's now the Commonwealth development, with a station internal to it, before turning back up onto Central Ave. That would've put it pretty close to the Pecan Silver Line station. If that was ever the case I guess it's not now. None of the Commonwealth renderings show anything that suggests the streetcar could be accommodated. Really too bad there was no effort to incorporate it.

[kermit]

Post-pandemic declines in transit ridership are mostly just a product of crappy US transit system management, not of any large scale behavior/preference changes. Places where service quality has been maintained or increased ridership has been increasing. 

Do we want higher ridership on Blue Line trains? Run them more often!

The Elizabeth Line opened one year ago last week.

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

At current estimated costs ($8.1 billion) the 29 mile long Silver Line is projected to cost about $279 million per mile. That would put it in the top five of these projects. While inflation explains a good bit of that, this is still a shocking number since these other high dollar LRT projects involved substantial tunneling or bridging. The Silver Line will run over relatively unremarkable areas that have real estate costs that are substantially lower than Seattle or Boston.

 

[RANYC]

21 hours ago, kermit said:

At current estimated costs ($8.1 billion) the 29 mile long Silver Line is projected to cost about $279 million per mile. That would put it in the top five of these projects. While inflation explains a good bit of that, this is still a shocking number since these other high dollar LRT projects involved substantial tunneling or bridging. The Silver Line will run over relatively unremarkable areas that have real estate costs that are substantially lower than Seattle or Boston.

 

Hi, what does the chart show?  Charlotte is noted as having a per mile cost of like $150m or so. per the chart.  You're citing $279m per mile based on the 8.1bn Silver Line for 29 miles.  Is the bar chart not supposed to reflect Charlotte's Silver Line costs?

[kermit]

3 hours ago, RANYC said:

Hi, what does the chart show?  Charlotte is noted as having a per mile cost of like $150m or so. per the chart.  You're citing $279m per mile based on the 8.1bn Silver Line for 29 miles.  Is the bar chart not supposed to reflect Charlotte's Silver Line costs?

Chart shows inflation adjusted, per mile construction costs for a bunch of US LRTprojects.  The original purpose of the chart was to put Minneapolis Southwest LRT cost in a national perspective (thus the three Minneapolis projects are highlighted). The two Charlotte projects shown on the chart are the South (original) segment of the Blue Line and the BLE (labeled here as Charlotte NE). The Charlotte Silver Line is not on the chart. I was merely pointing out that, at current estimates of $279m per mile, Silver Line would be one of the 5 most expensive projects.

My larger point was that I don’t understand why the Silver Line is so expensive since the terrain it runs over is fairly run-of-the-mill in comparison to the other very expensive projects which require lots of tunnels, massive bridges and/or very expensive real estate.

Edited May 24, 2023 by kermit

[TCLT]

4 hours ago, kermit said:

Chart shows inflation adjusted, per mile construction costs for a bunch of US LRTprojects.  The original purpose of the chart was to put Minneapolis Southwest LRT cost in a national perspective (thus the three Minneapolis projects are highlighted). The two Charlotte projects shown on the chart are the South (original) segment of the Blue Line and the BLE (labeled here as Charlotte NE). The Charlotte Silver Line is not on the chart. I was merely pointing out that, at current estimates of $279m per mile, Silver Line would be one of the 5 most expensive projects.

My larger point was that I don’t understand why the Silver Line is so expensive since the terrain it runs over is fairly run-of-the-mill in comparison to the other very expensive projects which require lots of tunnels, massive bridges and/or very expensive real estate.

The Sliver Line LPA requires extensive bridging though. Particularly over Independence to the Boplex, through the Village Lake area, and it move across railroad tracks at least a couple times en route to Matthews.  The approach to and route through uptown is basically entirely elevated. Real estate acquisition isn't ridiculously expensive, but definitely not cheap either. Certainly more expensive than any transit project Charlotte has done so far. Plus there's general material and labor inflation. Original Blue Line required relatively little real estate acquisition or bridging. BLE required more but nothing nearly approaching what the Silver Line needs. Makes sense the Silver Line will be significantly more expensive than either Blue Line segment tbh.

[kermit]

On 5/24/2023 at 9:40 PM, TCLT said:

The Sliver Line LPA requires extensive bridging though. Particularly over Independence to the Boplex, through the Village Lake area, and it move across railroad tracks at least a couple times en route to Matthews.  The approach to and route through uptown is basically entirely elevated. Real estate acquisition isn't ridiculously expensive, but definitely not cheap either. Certainly more expensive than any transit project Charlotte has done so far. Plus there's general material and labor inflation. Original Blue Line required relatively little real estate acquisition or bridging. BLE required more but nothing nearly approaching what the Silver Line needs. Makes sense the Silver Line will be significantly more expensive than either Blue Line segment tbh.

I was thinking of this bridge on Seattle's East Link line but its actually not complete yet so not on the chart. Mea culpa.  The Seattle LIN project includes two underground stations and a 3+ mile bored tunnel (a Silver Line tunnel under Trade st across all of uptown would be half that distance)

I get that the Silver needs to be much more expensive than either portion of the Blue Line, but I don't get why its one of the 5 most expensive US LRT projects ever (based on the data in the chart). There are LOTS of more complex/difficult lines out there.

Edited May 31, 2023 by kermit

[southslider]

Top 5 most expensive LRT corridors and still no direct access to Blue Line, Gold Line, or the Airport.

[TCLT]

11 hours ago, kermit said:

I get that the Silver needs to be much more expensive than either portion of the Blue Line, but I don't get why its one of the 5 most expensive US LRT projects ever (based on the data in the chart)

Aren't all the projects in that chart already complete and operating? Comparing the 2023 adjusted construction costs for pre-2022 projects to projected construction costs for projects to be accomplished over the next 10-20 years probably isn't fair. We need to consider what the inflation adjusted cost of those projects will be in 2040 when the Silver Line opens for revenue service and whether the Silver Line cost will still be top 5 at that point.

[kermit]

^ that is fair. Constant dollar calculations (estimations for future projects) are always tricky.

[CLT2014]

Has there been any progress on funding discussions with the General Assembly or is this project still a dream? 

[tozmervo]

PSA, virtual meeting tonight about the CTC redevelopment

https://www.charlottenc.gov/CS-Prep/City-Events/Virtual-Charlotte-Transportation-Center-Redevelopment-Meeting

[RANYC]

CATS Buses on National News for the bus shooting that took place at Premium Outlets recently.  

 

[carolinaboy]

Reminds me of the saying, "I'd rather be judged by twelve than be carried by six".

Glad the driver was able to defend himself.  Work rules be damned.

[videtur quam contuor]

I would rather be seen than be viewed.*

 

*In case a few are unfamiliar with an old custom of sharing the viewing time of the deceased in the funerary information. This bit of wisdom may have aged out of awareness.

edit: Could this be a new motto? To be seen rather than to be viewed Videtur quam contuor

Edited May 29, 2023 by tarhoosier

[kayman]

On 5/25/2023 at 6:23 AM, southslider said:

Top 5 most expensive LRT corridors and still no direct access to Blue Line, Gold Line, or the Airport.

The direct results of inefficiencies of a tier I transit agency (any agency that operates true BRT with dedicated facilities or rail transit beyond streetcar) being a city department of a major US city relying upon General Services and CDOT to do much of the engineering and design. Economies of scale ALWAYS have limitations hence why the ability to do in-depth qualitative work & access points assessments. The need is for CATS to be a transit authority with a dedicated staff whose primary job is design and engineering based on the best way to achieve fulfilling the needs of the entire region not some circumstances related to municipal department functions. 

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by kayman

[kermit]

We were all pretty confused by CATS’ route choice for the Silver around uptown (instead of through uptown). Well it appears that other folks were similarly confused. Sounds like there may have been some route planning hinkiness by CATS

https://www.wfae.org/politics/2023-05-31/how-cats-used-fuzzy-ridership-projections-to-guide-silver-line-route-decision

Quote

The Charlotte Area Transit System’s analysis of how the proposed $8 billion Silver Line light rail should pass through uptown contains misrepresentations and an out-right error, as well as questions as to whether some data was made up, according to a WFAE review of internal CATS documents.

 

None of this is a big surprise. I do wonder where the bottom might be with CATS.

Edited June 1, 2023 by kermit

[elrodvt]

I'm having second and third thoughts on commuter rail or even more LRT for Charlotte. I know this is sacrilegious and from a huge rail supporter it doesn't come easily. Why? Because I don't think we're ever? going to make the investments necessary to do a good job. I think a study should be done with going all in on brt and busses, possibly including technology that allows existent tracks be used by buses (is that at all practical??).

All buses should be electric of course. They should also be higher end products with comfy seats, decent and safe covered stops, deep penetration into suburban neighborhoods, friggin crosswalks and for major routes be lane separated during rush hour with those automated barrier things and timed lights. I think we could get so much more use that way. I live under 10 miles from downtown and the bus isn't even a viable option. The lrt is 4 miles away but you can't really even walk there. It's ok for the 9-5 park & ride crew but useless otherwise. 

On a slightly different note. Coming from Denver, my perception is that RTD was much better funded and a thousand PCT better run than CATS. Still though, they have the problem of all of Boulder having paid in and they aren't getting a line in the near future. Same as our northern red line issue. Until there is a massive funding program at the national level I just don't think it's going to work out. I've started listening to a podcast on the Denver NPR station called "ghost train" which so far seems pretty interesting and deals with the Boulder dilemma. Might learn something applicable to CLT from it. 

https://www.cpr.org/podcast/ghost-train/

 

 

[southslider]

No longer think of a regional authority as necessary to increase funding and expand the system, but rather, an authority is now necessary to simply regain trust and completely redo the system.

Silver Line is about as hopeless as Red Line now, but there remains hope that a new Authority can actually implement more cost-effective solutions for a wider area of needs.

Edited June 1, 2023 by southslider

[kayman]

On 5/31/2023 at 9:38 PM, kermit said:

We were all pretty confused by CATS’ route choice for the Silver around uptown (instead of through uptown). Well it appears that other folks were similarly confused. Sounds like there may have been some route planning hinkiness by CATS

https://www.wfae.org/politics/2023-05-31/how-cats-used-fuzzy-ridership-projections-to-guide-silver-line-route-decision

None of this is a big surprise. I do wonder where the bottom might be with CATS.

The LPA route alignment is questionable. However, any future LYNX rail transit investments should & must be completely grade-separated from automobile and bicycle/pedestrian infrastructure. 

At-grade and in-street ideas should be and have been opposed by many of us transportation planning professionals due to NCDOT's sloppy and politically-induced underfunding and delayed maintenance of roadway and non-automobile infrastructure in Metro Charlotte. Also, there is a huge safety risk with collisions due to horrible drivers trying to avoid the cross gates by racing the trains at these local street crossings allowed within the system.   

Edited June 2, 2023 by kayman