CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Urbanity]

I think this goes here though I may be incorrect, but I noticed an interesting news items today:

• U.K.-based engineering consultancy Halcrow recently added two 30-year rail industry veterans to its U.S. roster. Carl Morey will serve as project manager for Halcrow’s Charlotte Area Transit System Federal Transit Administration (FTA) project management oversight (PMOC) consultant contract. Morey previously served a range of transportation agencies and organizations, including The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, New Jersey Transit, Amtrak, Dallas Area Rapid Transit, Fort Worth Transportation Authority, New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority and Florida’s Tri-Rail.

http://www.progressi...le.asp?id=22426

I looked Mr. Morey up and noted that he apparently was involved (through the NYC Economic Development Commission) in the Yankee Stadium Area Redevelopment, NYC Cruise Ship Terminals, and the West Side High Line Rail Restoration Project. He was also the Commission's rep on all Federal Transit Authority funded projects.

Looks like Charlotte got itself a heavy hitter to get the federal funds for rail projects!

Edited January 26, 2010 by Urbanity

[cltbwimob]

I was thinking about the problems with connectivity between the Gateway Station and CTC mentioned last week, and came up with an idea to solve it. Assuming that in the future, the Silver Line has LRT chosen as the technology, and that it doesn't make its way to CGS, suppose an underground people mover [not an automated walkway but more like a monorail train] was built for the purpose of allowing people to make connections between CGS and CTC. I think there is a similar set up in the Denver Airport. I don't know that it would be any more practical than using the Streetcar, although it might be slightly faster due to being unnaffected by stop lights and traffic and could have more frequent trips between the two transportation centers since it would be completely dedicated to that corridor. I think it could spark some underground development, maybe retail, if there were stops roughly every 1000 ft. to allow people to get off and on at undergound stops. Any thoughts on this?

BTW City Council voted 7-4 to pursue funding for the Streetcar starter line.

Edited January 26, 2010 by cltbwimob

[dubone]

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?/topic/246-charlotte-center-city-streetcar-network/

Streetcar is now being managed by the city instead of CATS and it has had its own topic for a while. I have moved the discussion of the new pilot line to the streetcar thread.

[nyxmike]

It looks like NC will get $520 million for high speed rail. The article mentioned using the money for a new station in downtown Charlotte. I'm assuming that means we will finally see construction of the Gateway Station soon???

"Much of the money would be spent to buy right of way, replace curved tracks with straighter tracks, build passing sidings or double tracks where there are single tracks now, improve stations or build new ones, and build bridges over roads to eliminate at-grade crossings. N.C.'s proposal includes new stops in Lexington and Hillsborough, a new station in downtown Charlotte and planning for a new Raleigh station."

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/local/story/1208890.html

[Urbanity]

That is fantastic! I have a feeling the majority of it would go to tracks and right-of-way, but it would be sweet if they had money also designated to get the Gateway Station started.

I was just thinking the other day that we need to have Gateway start soon if the planners are going to realize a vision of the commuter rail.

[Urbanity]

And just as I get excited about mass transit in CLT...

Bus and train riders may pay an extra quarter for a one-way ride starting in July, and the Charlotte Area Transit System is considering service cuts for the elderly and disabled to fill a nearly $2 million budget hole.

In addition, CATS is proposing to cut the historic trolley service through South End. That service uses replica trolley cars on weekends, and is mostly used by tourists and families.

CATS also said Wednesday the possible opening of the light-rail extension to University City could be pushed back past 2019 because the transit system may not have enough money. Three years ago, CATS said the 11-mile extension might open by 2013 .

http://www.charlotte...ry/1208951.html

Edited January 28, 2010 by Urbanity

[uptownliving]

Yeah CATS is in a bind because the 1/2 Cent Sales Tax collections in Mecklenburg continue to plummet due to our local recession. I wonder if they could do more of a half/half approach and shift a million or 2 from the capital fund to operations just for FY2011...so that the fare increase could be avoided. CATS own models indicate that if they do this fare increase they will lose ridership.

[cltbwimob]

Is the Gateway station part of the $300-375 million price tag for the Red Line, or is it a stand alone project?

[uptownliving]

The Red Line will have its own platform independent of the Amtrak platform and station....however they will both be at "Gateway Station" just opposite sides of the tracks.

[New Name]

I'd like to see the projects spelled out, hopefully the "O" will do a good story on the projects.

The way I'm hearing it (pertaining to Charlotte), we are getting

-Construction of the Gateway Station for to Amtrak (will they sell off the Amtrak land on N. Tryon?)

-Grade separations at Sugar Creek, 36th, 16th Streets

[dubone]

It is basically the Current Needs, 3rd Frequency, and 4th Frequency list on here:

http://www.bytrain.org/fra/track2/prioritized_capital_plan.pdf

A lot of it is the significant trackwork around the ADM mill in 4th Ward.

It does NOT include the 5th frequency level, which includes Gateway Station, new bridges within downtown, nor the 36th/Sugar Creek/Eastway separations.

By the way, the real thread for the intercity rail is here:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?/topic/17212-north-carolina-intercity-rail-transit/page__st__500

[southslider]

If the difference between 4th frequency ($473 million) and 5th frequency ($520 million) is really only $47 million, then the City, NCDOT, and NCRR should be looking to close that gap to build the next layer of improvements concurrent with the HSR-stimulus ones.

Obviously, these are tough times financially, but there could be savings in economies of scale and current construction prices. Plus, waiting to do the 36th grade-separation later will only come at a greater opportunity costs to other future-year CIP/bond-backed needs. Likewise, a delayed Gateway Station will compete in the future against other CATS projects.

Edited January 29, 2010 by southslider

[southslider]

^^Dubone, are you sure the 5th frequency-level items aren't funded? Yonah Freemark, a reputable transportation blogger, is reporting North Carolina as receiving $520 million (see table near end of linked blog post), which would fund those items. http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/28/high-speed-rail-grants-announced-california-florida-and-illinois-are-lucky-recipients/

Edited January 29, 2010 by southslider

[dubone]

It is tiered. What is currently needed for the 2 trains that already run, what is needed to add a 3rd train, what is needed to add a 4th train, what is needed to add a 5th train.

Read the list of projects in our application carefully. They are mutually exclusive tiers, so they could fund at partial levels. http://www.bytrain.org/fra/track2/prioritized_capital_plan.pdf That means the difference between 4th and 5th is $531m.

We got the $25m to fund the "Current and 3rd Frequency" level and then $520m. The next level of work was requested for $473m. So the $520m should cover some additional work beyond the 4th level. But to get 5 trains, you need to spend a billion, as you need to do the $474m of work to add the 4th train and then the $531m of work for the 5th.

I'm not saying we only got $473. I'm saying we only got 520m of the 1B total for all the projects for the 4th and 5th frequency.

Then there is an additional $4.3Billion needed to fully fund the HSR from Charlotte the DC, none of which was funded.

The whitehouse's own list only says that the funds will double the train frequency (current 2 to new 4). The blogger you reference just mentions the speed and the value of the grant. But that is still consistent with what I've written.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/files/documents/100128_1400-HSRAwards-Summary_FRA%20Revisions.pdf

[orulz]

NCDOT got the following programs funded by ARRA:

Congestion Mitigation - $25 million

This is for three new crossovers on the CSX A line in Nash and Edgecombe counties.

Current Needs and 3rd Frequency - $23.5 million

This is for the purchase and overhaul of more used passenger equipment, a couple minor station improvements, and a major realignment/passing siding near Burlington.

4th Frequency - 473.5 million. This contains two components of CRISP - the

This covers a bunch of things:

• Two components of CRISP - the CSX/NS grade separation near ADM, and the maintenance yard near S. Graham & Palmer.
  
  
• Full restoration of double-track between Charlotte and Greensboro. Each of these double tracking projects will also involve some curve realignments and crossing eliminations (closures, improvements, and grade separations).
  
  
• Another passing siding in RTP
  
  
• 3 other grade separations - Hopson (Durham), Morrisville Parkway (Wake), and Klumac (Rowan)
  
  
• More equipment rehabilitations
  
  
• Several more minor station improvements

That comes up $23 million short of the full $545 million. Maybe the extra $23 million will be contingency, or maybe it will be allocated towards something else, or maybe it will be used to cut down on NC's matching share.

Read more about CRISP to find out about final build-out of all the improvements in the Charlotte area.

[Spartan]

And just as I get excited about mass transit in CLT...

CATS has been says 2016-2019 for a while now...

[Ryepow]

This may seem like a weird idea, but regarding the Southeast Silver Line - Do you think they would ever consider Monorail?

There would be some difficulties in the City Center section, particularly if it starts at the proposed Gateway Station; however, if they began it around the CTC instead it might take car of a lot of those issues.

The thought occurred to me as the majority of the proposed line is down Independence, which seems to be the perfect place for a monorail construction as monorails have less frequent stops and need less space for construction purposes.

I'm sure there are some reasons this may not work, but I thought I would throw it out there and see the general reaction.

I don't think it's a weird idea. I think it's a great idea and was thinking the same thing. Someone pointed out that it would be ridiculously expensive, but look at the proposed alternative. The cost of a monorail may be cheaper then turning Independence into a freeway, adding bridges at major intersections, putting RBT down the middle of Independence BLVD, plus the financial impact as a result of this complex project for businesses along Independence. A lot will need to be bulldozed in order to make it work. Instead they could have the tracks at ground level beside Independence until Albemarle Rd and then elevated in most places but not all from there to 485. For Independence BLVD they can keep it as is, but perhaps add a HOV lane in the median in the future. Replace the empty car dealerships with some new retail and call it a day.

[southslider]

I think the bigger idea to be asked is, if rail transit is ultimately desired, should the Southeast Corridor even follow Independence. You don't exactly see light rail running in or along I-77.

Despite its calmer traffic and having light rail adjacent, even South Boulevard has stretches of struggling retail and car dealerships. Frankly, it's an antiquated land use pattern, with which all US cities are struggling. To the point, I think others are placing too much faith in the Silver Line as the "silver bullet" to change land use patterns along Independence.

As currently planned, East Charlotte could someday see two major transit investments, one (streetcar) with the development payoff, the other (BRT) mobility. As we see on the South Corridor, park-and-ride stations haven't produced as much development as the in-town, walk-up stations. Along Southeast Corridor, the in-town stations (CPCC and Pecan) will be served by Streetcar. BRT can reasonably serve the other park-and-ride stations.

Edited February 4, 2010 by southslider

[dubone]

The freeway project has to happen anyway, and is outside the transit budget.

The Las Vegas monorail costs $141m PER MILE compared to $30m for the blue line light rail. So you'd spend $2B for the 14 miles of monorail and still not have the freeway needed for the auto and bus travelers on the corridor. If light rail was hard to justify on this corridor because of costs, then something that is 3x the cost of light rail would be impossible to justify. I'd rather have a freeway AND a light rail, which is what we could get for the cost of just a monorail.

My personal preference would have been to upgrade the CSX rail corridor and have commuter rail or light rail on that, and then just let Independence be upgraded over time for busses. But what we got was a coupling of light rail or busway with the eventual freeway project.

At least in the next few years, the freeway will be extended to Conference Drive, so there will be 5.2 miles of freeway and busway built then, which is 60% of the total needed for the SE line. MUMPO (our local planning org) has listed that conversion as the #1 priority, and defended the money from being shifted to 485. The remaining 40% (conversion to a freeway with HOV/transit lanes) needed for the SE corridor is now listed as their #2 regional priority, so as they get ready to create the plans for 2011-2017, it is fairly certain that section will be funded. That means that is happening no matter what this decade, so then in the 2020s, CATS will have the full transit corridor for their busses or if they come up with enough money, then an LRT corridor.

[Urbanity]

I don't think it's a weird idea. I think it's a great idea and was thinking the same thing. Someone pointed out that it would be ridiculously expensive, but look at the proposed alternative. The cost of a monorail may be cheaper then turning Independence into a freeway, adding bridges at major intersections, putting RBT down the middle of Independence BLVD, plus the financial impact as a result of this complex project for businesses along Independence. A lot will need to be bulldozed in order to make it work. Instead they could have the tracks at ground level beside Independence until Albemarle Rd and then elevated in most places but not all from there to 485. For Independence BLVD they can keep it as is, but perhaps add a HOV lane in the median in the future. Replace the empty car dealerships with some new retail and call it a day.

To be honest, I was only kind of day-dreaming about the visual when I suggested Monorail on Independence (which I still think would look cool) but I realize that it is not the most cost-effective way to serve that corridor.

[dubone]

Monorails have an interesting appeal. I think because of Disney, where it enters into the consciousness in a special way that other transit forms don't. But unfortunately, it is probably the least practical.

[Ryepow]

My personal preference would have been to upgrade the CSX rail corridor and have commuter rail or light rail on that, and then just let Independence be upgraded over time for busses. But what we got was a coupling of light rail or busway with the eventual freeway project.

I agree. There is a railroad line that currently runs from the airport beside WIlkinson BLVD into Uptown passing next to BofA stadium. It then curves beside the Brookshire Fwy. and intersects the future north line. It continues down parallel to Monroe Rd all the way pretty much to 485. It looks like it continues on to Monroe from that point on. Having stops off of Monroe Rd instead of Independence Blvd would be serving roughly the same people. That seems like the most logical place to upgrade rail lines or add lines next to them to me, but I don't really know much about this kind of stuff. I think the biggest problem is there are a lot of houses, especially in the Chantilly/Elizabeth area extremely close to those tracks. My cousin lives next to the tracks in Chantilly and you definitely know when a train is coming.

[New Name]

Modernizes north-south tracks so they can carry high speed trains.

Allows space on the proposed bridge for a future CATS light-rail line.

Clears up train traffic so freight trains can easily reach a planned transportation center next to the airport where freight will be transferred between trains and trucks.

Where is the "proposed bridge for a future CATS light-rail line"?

City wins fast-train funds

[dubone]

The light rail mentioned is actually commuter rail for the CATS Red Line.

[Spartan]

The bridge is actually a RR bridge. They are grade separating the CSX line from the NS line (do a search for "CRISP" on UP... there is a diagram that illustrates it). But by doing all of that it will allow HSR and the Red Line to go through town on dedicated lines.