CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[dubone]

It has been posted multiple times recently, but for those still wondering, the CSX crossing changes are illustrated beginning on page 8 of this pdf:

http://www.mumpo.org/PDFs/Rail/CRISP.pdf

Not all projects listed in the pdf are funded, but the project detailed from page 8-18 is funded. You can see in detail out the Lynx Red line/North Corridor will come in there and go over the CSX tracks.

[thegryseone]

It has been posted multiple times recently, but for those still wondering, the CSX crossing changes are illustrated beginning on page 8 of this pdf:

http://www.mumpo.org.../Rail/CRISP.pdf

Not all projects listed in the pdf are funded, but the project detailed from page 8-18 is funded. You can see in detail out the Lynx Red line/North Corridor will come in there and go over the CSX tracks.

That's very cool. I always like aerial photographs, maps and illustrations (almost as much as I like telling one-liners [inside joke; don't worry about it]).

[cltbwimob]

Does anyone know how much this 100 million dollars is going to help the in constructing the Red Line, and how much of the 545 million is going to go toward the Gateway Station if any? In other words, how much of the 300 million dollar estimates for the Red Line will be covered by these grants, and will it help to speed up construction of the North Corridor?

[dubone]

The details of what the $545m covers are in this thread, the Gateway Station thread, and the Quiet Zone thread.

The single $130m project to rework the crossings behind the ADM mill in 4th Ward does affect the Red Line, in that it takes away a crossing from the tracks the Red Line will use. Absolutely none of this money funds the actual budget that CATS needs to build the Red Line.

None of the rest of the $545m will have any bearing on the Red Line.

[staffer]

The details of what the $545m covers are in this thread, the Gateway Station thread, and the Quiet Zone thread.

The single $130m project to rework the crossings behind the ADM mill in 4th Ward does affect the Red Line, in that it takes away a crossing from the tracks the Red Line will use. Absolutely none of this money funds the actual budget that CATS needs to build the Red Line.

None of the rest of the $545m will have any bearing on the Red Line.

Actually, the grant may fund the Red Line bridge over the CSX if I read some of the stuff correctly. Hard to tell.

[tozmervo]

^ What's not really clear is whether or not that improvement at the ADM Mill was part of the original Red Line project/estimate. If that was included in the cost of the Red Line before, then the stimulus package has just shaved a substantial chunk off its construction.

[staffer]

^ What's not really clear is whether or not that improvement at the ADM Mill was part of the original Red Line project/estimate. If that was included in the cost of the Red Line before, then the stimulus package has just shaved a substantial chunk off its construction.

MTC presentation from last year says

• Phase 1 (2012)

– One-way service

– No signals or sidings

– At-grade crossing of CSX

– $261 million (at completion)

• Phase 2 (2017)

– Two-way signalized service

– 2 passing sidings

–Grade separated with CSX

– $117 million (at completion)

Thus it would appear that funding the grade separation would be significant savings from the Phase II expense, not the initial startup, but having it grade separated from get go would be much better operationally for the North Line Phase I. Somewhere in the NCDOT rail division grant application for ARRA funds there is one statement of linkage (can' find the link) that it would be very difficult operationally to do the grade separation after the North line had begun running at grade across the CSX

[dubone]

http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyres/engkd4gcfcy5krap2e4wl5hlabp3kl2jhpshxs3khfmyunadvk4e4wbar3jjmdqf3jtilfyii7cio3b4iuqhsa5lung/RedCostCompv2.pdf

Strangely, though, that bullet list from the presentation that states a grade separation in Phase II does not reflect the higher cost estimates after Preliminary Engineering. And then the bullet list that has the higher costs does not list the grade separation.

Assuming that is true, that CATS seemed to have included this grade separation, I guess it is possible that they had budgeted for a different design for the grade separation. It would be incredible if that full cost was baked in the Red Line, because that would be absurd to place that whole grade separation on that project.

CATS will have to clarify.

Also, now that they plan a facility to maintaining the passenger trains south of downtown for Amtrak, I wonder if there can be coordination to have the Red Line facility on the same site. It seems that there are some significant chances for coordination.

[Spartan]

^Right, it's been covered. I just mentioned that quirk again, as it just goes to show Clodfelter will use whatever tactic he has at his disposal to prevent BRT on Independence, be it exclusion of Mecklenburg from considering a sales-tax levy, or prohibiting the use of articulated vehicles.

However, I believe both of Clodfelter's tactics ironically hurt East Charlotte. No articulated buses means routes like #9-Central can't expand their capacity, when frequency is already more than LYNX. And no possible increase in sales tax not only means that Southeast Corridor will be waiting in a long line behind other transit corridors, but area roadway needs too, such as Independence, which provides the right-of-way for SE Corridor, but will continue to be widened at a snail's pace.

I just read about the mayor of London's plans to replace their fleet of articulated buses (they call them bendy buses) with a modern version of the classic double-decker Routemaster that everyone associates with London. That got me thinking about Charlotte's capacity issues on some routes... I know Sen. Clotfelder has supposedly put the lockdown on articulated buses in North Carolina (though I can't find anything online to support that). So my question is, has anyone ever considered double-decker buses as a solution to capacity issues? It could be a realistic and practical solution for our high-volume routes until the street car is up and running.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7790082.stm

[orulz]

I know Sen. Clotfelder has supposedly put the lockdown on articulated buses in North Carolina (though I can't find anything online to support that).

I'm not sure about that, as Chapel Hill has been running articulated buses for over 2 years now..

Might double decker buses not have clearance issues?

[Spartan]

The clearance issue occurred to me, but I'm not sure. Coaches and 18-wheelers can go through, and the double deckers can't be much taller.

Is the Chapel Hill bus affiliated with UNC-CH? Maybe that's how they got around it? Or maybe the law only applies to Mecklenburg.

[southslider]

I'm not sure about that, as Chapel Hill has been running articulated buses for over 2 years now..

That's because the legislation's real purpose was to block BRT on Independence. The author of that law change was Dan Clodfelter, an Elizabeth resident and LRT-backer. Clodfelter could likely care less if Chapel Hill flaunts his laws. Besides, it wouldn't be the first time for Chapel Hill. However, if CATS were to use any articulated buses, even for local routes, Clodfelter may sue in heartbeat.

CATS' recent application for federal funding should bring this strange law some much needed attention. The Sprinter buses running out Wilkinson don't have many seats. I'd much rather see articulated buses used with the federal grant than Sprinter buses on routes like 9-Central. But the State Senator's legislative tactic has inadvertently constrained CATS from meeting these capacity needs.

[Spartan]

^so would double decker buses not be an option (aside from the logistical issues of making sure there is adequate height clearance)?

[dubone]

It is normally not up to lawmakers to enforce laws and regulations.

I am not quite clear on what is the problem with the current plan, which is to have Sprinter buses run the routes as Express routes that only stop at the designated stops (that match those of the streetcar plan, generally) and eventually build a streetcar system. I think the Sprinter system is a fine way to add capacity and frequency, but to upgrade it to something above a standard bus route.

I love double-decker buses and there are some pretty badass looking ones out there, but I don't think the 14.4' height that most of them are would work here, but I don't know for sure.

[southslider]

^Except the Sprinter bus doesn't have many seats. Granted, a modern streetcar vehicle also has more standing capacity than seated.

As a regular 9-Central commuter, I just hope that the combined routes provide as much frequency as the current service. I'm used to not having a seat. But that's worth it, when you don't have to wait long for the next bus.

[tozmervo]

It's come up pretty frequently on these boards, and the recent CTAG meeting addressed ads on buses. A CATS staffer said these ads would only bring in about $60k a year ($.04 per rider).

That wouldn't even pay for a couple of people to run ad sales.

[Neo]

It's come up pretty frequently on these boards, and the recent CTAG meeting addressed ads on buses. A CATS staffer said these ads would only bring in about $60k a year ($.04 per rider).

That wouldn't even pay for a couple of people to run ad sales.

I'm having a REALLY hard time believing that $60k is all CATS could get for advertising on buses. What kind of ads are they referring to with that amount? Ads on the outside of the bus in addition to the inside or just the inside? IMO CATS could also display tasteful/elegant ads at LYNX stations and sheltered bus stops.

[Norm2]

i really do not think that CATS is even attempting to "think outside the box" in regards to advertising revenue.

[Urbanity]

I'm having a REALLY hard time believing that $60k is all CATS could get for advertising on buses.

Apparently you have a good reason:

Flowers said the most recent estimate, at least a year old and done by the City of Charlotte, said ads could bring in from $590,000 to $2.6 million a year

http://marynewsom.bl...f-cats-bus.html

Edited February 22, 2010 by Urbanity

[Neo]

i really do not think that CATS is even attempting to "think outside the box" in regards to advertising revenue.

After looking at the San Francisco Photo of the Day thread I know what I don't really want to see in terms of advertising on buses:

That's going a little too far IMO, but I suppose if it keeps the bus on the route then there isn't much room for criticism.

[Urbanity]

After looking at the San Francisco Photo of the Day thread I know what I don't really want to see in terms of advertising on buses:

That's going a little too far IMO, but I suppose if it keeps the bus on the route then there isn't much room for criticism.

I don't honestly have a problem with it... but then again, I'm from New York!

[dubone]

I agree, I'm fine with whole-bus wraps as long as it is a tasteful thing being advertised. A Palm ad seems fine to me.

[InitialD]

I can't wait to see these ads on CATS! Dirty Book Davis will have a conniption fit.

Link

[Neo]

^ I don't have a problem with wrapped ads as long as they leave a little room to actually see the bus. I suppose it's just a taste thing. When I lived in Chicago I'm not sure I ever saw a bus wrapped in advertising, just the banners like the above photo has.

They did however have subway cars wrapped in advertising, but it was more elegant than the Palm ad in my example. Subway cars were bathed in red with the white Target logo's for example. I suppose my example is a bad one since no one is on the lower deck (I'm assuming). If it were a city bus, I would hope that the windows wouldn't be covered by the ad in which case I would be more ok with it.

This is tasteful IMO:

If wrapped ads were to happen though, how would CATS be able to discriminate between elegant and hideous?

[InitialD]

I've always liked how some of the ads on Hong Kong trams have looked:

Link

But in all honesty, I wouldn't care what the ads looked like if it kept the rate hike from going up to $1.75 July 1st.