CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[dubone]

Looks like the Gold Rush crushes all the other routes.

[tozmervo]

Top 10:

Gold Rush Red Line

Central Ave

Randolph Rd

Gold Rush Orange Line

Eastway

Beatties Ford

N Tryon

Shamrock Dr

Kings Dr

Providence Rd

Bottom 5:

All three Villiage Riders

Concord Mills Express (which only runs on Saturday)

Westinghouse Blvd (which only has three trips a day)

[kermit]

Mary Newsome has discusses a Charlotte City Council memo which describes how some of the Red line special tax district money will be distributed. http://nakedcityblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/commuter-rail-to-gaston-and-union.html?utm_source=Updates+From+UNC+Charlotte+Urban+Institute&utm_campaign=c1cab1ac24-Website_Updates7.28.11&utm_medium=email

The memo suggests that the special tax district revenue collected around Gateway Station (not the northern portions of the line) should be allocated as follows:

• Direct 25% of the tax increment capture proceeds to the Red Line.

• Direct 75% of the tax increment capture to a reserve fund for future commuter rail projects to Union and Gaston Counties

The proposal presumes the future commuter rail projects to Union and Gaston Counties would terminate at Charlotte Gateway Station."

I am glad they are thinking this far ahead, but they need to decide what they will do with the P&N tracks before I go ahead and build my streetcar on them up to Tuckaseegee (I still think the stretch of P&N tracks from Cedar st to Tuckaseegee looks like Southend (in terms of development potential)

[southslider]

(I still think the stretch of P&N tracks from Cedar st to Tuckaseegee looks like Southend (in terms of development potential)

Sure, but compared to West Morehead Street between Cedar St and Wilkinson Blvd?

[kermit]

Sure, but compared to West Morehead Street between Cedar St and Wilkinson Blvd?

I will concede that the P&N tracks don't do anything for the stretch of Morehead from Freedom to Wilkinson. That said the P&N tracks are just a block or two from Morehead from Cedar to Freedom and provide access to South Wesley Heights and the transitioning industrial (and multifamily) space that straddles Tuckeseegee and up to Turner. It just looks like there is so much potential to convert the industrial space to multifamily, and the tracks are just.... there already... Seeing rails there makes it feel like the streetcar would be free.....

But yes it will provide LOTS of transit to Wesley Heights and does not really connect to anything substantial at the end of the line but....

[ah59396]

This Siemens "cityval" line was just proposed in Oakville, a large suburb of Toronto. Not sure what will come of it, but I love the versatility it presents and would be intrigued to see what the costs are. Around the 5:00 mark it discusses an alternative "arival", which services an airport like an express route. In my mind I could see something like this functioning well with a connection between CLT and the Gateway Station.

Oh to dream.

[kermit]

Two of my favorite things to do are to make unrealistic rail transit plans for Charlotte and make google maps. This has resulted in my latest work of financial fantasy -- two development spurs for the Blue Line. The standard disclaimer (that there is no money for this) applies.

The very cursory map of the two spurs can be found here:

http://maps.google.c...018548,0.043044

In summary, the Southend spur would run between Spectrum and the Southline/JBL site onto Dunavant where there would be a station right off the existing blue line -- this station would fill the large gap between East/West and New Bern without slowing runs from 485-Uptown. The single tracked spur would follow an old rail siding which runs between the warehouses on Distribution st. The spur would then run across Tryon st into Brookhill where a central stop could serve a redeveloped Brookhill / Southside park area. This would be roughly 1/2 of a mile in total length.

I suspect that the biggest obsticle to this would be putting tracks between Spectrum and Southline since I don't beleive that the historic ROW was preserved next to the blue line.

The second (and companion) spur would use the soon to be abandoned ACWR ROW through NoDa. The spur would branch off the planned BLE at Mallory st (Brooks sandwich shop) with an immediate stop to serve lower NoDa and Matheson. A second stop on the spur would be around Steel Gardens about a block from the Plaza / Sugar Creek intersection. This is approximately 1.2 miles in length. While the stations on this spur are within 4-5 blocks of planned BLE stops at 36th and Sugar Creek this would create a similar station density to Southend given the close spacing of Carson, Bland and E-W, The spur would generate greater value if it could be extended further along the ACWR in a separate ROW to Garranger HS and Citiline (I don't know if there is room for that in the existing ACWR property).

Operationally I would think one train set could run from the end of one spur to the other with 20 minute (ish) frequency. This strategy would have the side benefit of increasing frequencies through downtown NoDa and Southend and provide a higher station density in some high growth areas without slowing 'main line' travel between Pineville / Downtown / University. The extensions would run in either historic rail infrastructure or non-arterial streets and not require a significant amount of new equipment. Given this, I estimate the two spurs could be built for a "couple hundred bucks" plus a pickup truck and a rented backhoe (just kidding).

Edited May 17, 2012 by kermit

[orulz]

I think a spur to South Park Mall would be more possible than you might think. Tyvola could be widened to a full 120 foot right-of-way with two lanes of traffic in each direction, bike lanes, wide sidewalks, double track light rail, and left turn lanes at traffic signals and nice median planting strips elsewhere. This could be done with what I'd consider surprisingly few property impacts: about 13 full acquisitions of single-family homes (some of which are rentals already) and 4 partial acquisitions allowing for relocating the house on the same lot.

The really challenging/expensive part would be the connection to the existing blue line since it would have to go over the freight rail line that's right nextdoor, but it wouldn't be impossible e light rail is already on a viaduct in the vicinity of Tyvola.

Certainly this would be a popular extension...

[nonillogical]

^ That would be awesome, and it would also be a NIMBY explosion of epic proportions, which I always find entertaining.

[southslider]

If dreaming of a spur to South Park, I'd rather see it start at Scaleybark, so you could also connect Park Road destinations on the way there. I suppose the rough routing would follow Scaleybark Road to Woodlawn Road to Park Road to Fairview Road. Stations could go at Scaleybark/Woodlawn, Montford Drive, Park-Selwyn Terrace, Piedmont Row, South Park Mall, Phillips Place, and Foxcroft.

Such routing would address the previously mentioned concern about how to wye off the existing Blue Line at a cheaper at-grade location. You'd also finally see a good use for the old Park Road, now right turn lane from Fairview to Park, re-fashioned as the gradual curve for at-grade track.

Alternatively, you could stay on Woodlawn/Runnymeade, instead of Park Road. That option would allow for a station closer to the cool Tranquil Court area around Selwyn/Colony with a station near Selwyn/Runnymeade. But talk about NIMBY issues then in reaching South Park off Runnymeade Lane via Barclay Downs, Colony or Sharon Road.

Edited May 17, 2012 by southslider

[dubone]

I do like the South Park spur (a few years ago I drew up a dream rail line from the airport to South Park), and prefer the routing past Park Road S.C. and Montford.

Overall, I would still like to see a "Smile" corridor arcing from the airport, the old coliseum-area, Park Road S.C./Montford, South Park, Cotswald S.C., and on up eventually to Eastland. But it would be NIMBY hell, so I agree that just from the Blue Line to South Park would be useful enough as a spur.

[orulz]

I do like the South Park spur (a few years ago I drew up a dream rail line from the airport to South Park), and prefer the routing past Park Road S.C. and Montford.

I think that this is clearly the better routing (vs just going down Tyvola) but for the impacts. The original study for the light rail way back when considered Park Road and it was rejected because the impacts were too great. If that was deemed to be too impactful, imagine how bad it would be running down Scaleybark and/or Woodlawn. 50+ houses would need to be acquired.

With Tyvola, impacts to private residential properties would be far fewer, due the presence of large, publicly owned facilities along much of the length corridor (Diehl Park, the wastewater treatment facility, and Smith Language Academy.) This means a 1.8 miles with little activity and no possibility for redevelopment, but the positive impact of simply getting a line to South Park (which, again, I don't think could possibly happen any other way) outweighs all that.

[dubone]

But those large institutional properties also mean less density to support ridership.

I think a streetcar is ultimately the right method to get to South Park. This is mainly because it can help support local along the way, no need to obtain much expensive property for a dedicated right of way, and the lower footprint can help it win more of the NIMBY hearts in the neighborhood.

[southslider]

I think that this is clearly the better routing (vs just going down Tyvola) but for the impacts. 50+ houses would need to be acquired.

I think a lot of these homes are likely to re-develop anyway. Just look at what infill has already occurred on Woodlawn and Park Roads.

[Norm2]

When was the last time the city changed the long-term transportation plan? Considering the changes that are occurring, with HOT lanes on Independence, a streetcar on Monroe, and the Red Line looking like it might not happen for a long time, I think its time for the city to re-evaluate its transportation plan/goals.

[dubone]

When was the last time the city changed the long-term transportation plan? Considering the changes that are occurring, with HOT lanes on Independence, a streetcar on Monroe, and the Red Line looking like it might not happen for a long time, I think its time for the city to re-evaluate its transportation plan/goals.

I have been thinking this a lot, too. Frankly, the only real changes have been backwards, as they pretty much abandoned the Central streetcar to let the city try and fund it, and now abandoned the Independence route in favor of, um, streetcar on Monroe, presumably to also let the city fund it.

Frankly, I think it is just as well to wait until later this decade to start planning again, as by then the BLE will be done, the Red Line will be settled presumably, and hopefully even the Central streetcar will have gotten extended with the city's capital plan.

It would be nice, though, if they had gotten further with the 2020 plans. CATS pretty much will have only delivered the Blue line, c'est tout. While having promised grand things all along.

I would very like to see consideration of the following for a 2040 horizon.

• Blue Line extension to Ballantyne
  
• A corridor and technology established to eventually connect to South Park
  
• An updated plan for connecting to the airport, potentially with the airport's funding involvement
  
• An updated plan for the SouthEast now that Eastland doesn't exist, and the Independence corridor is canceled
  

I find myself consistent irked that the Red line is consider the second priority behind the Blue Line, when it has so few riders expected and has so many roadblocks. Absolutely the streetcar deserved a similar system of funding where the CATS revenue is matched with state and city funds, rather than being left entirely to the city to build.

In fact, it is maddening that they have not done the obvious funding analysis such as localized/neighborhood TIFs or taxation matched with CATS funds so that the strategy could be reused for new streetcar routes. Now we will need that for the Monroe Rd (SE) route, or the airport (W) route, and new potential routes.

[cltbwimob]

I would like to see a region-wide integrated surface transportation plan that addressed a myriad of transportation needs/issues in the entire Charlotte

metro area.

Transit:

-Blue Line:Extend to Ballantyne via Carolina place area

-BLE:Extend beyond 485 into Cabarrus County past the Speedway and terminate at Concord Mills

-West Corridor:LRT to the Airport and eventually to Belmont

-LRT spurs from the Blue line to Southpark and University Research Park

-Southeast Corridor:LRT along 74 past the coliseum to Wendover Road then split with the main line going to the CSX ROW then to Matthews via the ROW and a smaller spur to Central avenue then along the avenue eventually terminating at Eastland.

-Commuter Rail: to Monroe, Gastonia, Rock Hill, Mooresville/Statesville, Salisbury, and eventually to Lincoln and Stanly Counties

-Streetcar: currently funded starter line plus Kurt Walton's proposed extensions; additional spurs along:Kings drive to CMC via Midtown, and Freedom drive area west of Uptown.

-Intercity Rail: Current trains plus HSR, Silver Star rerouted through Charlotte, additional rail to Wilmington and Asheville

*Note-The proposed 10 mile streetcar line should be abandoned in favor of a system as outlined-streetcar is not and should not be built as a linear mode of rapid transit but should be a neighborhood connector

Roads:

-485 completed and at least 6 total lanes around the entire loop.

-New interstate corridor (Designated I-32 possibly) from I-26 South of Asheville to I-73/74 in Rockingham (Giving Charlotte a freeway connection to the port of Wilmington)

-Billy Graham Parkway turned into a full fledged freeway with an Interstate spur designation (I-177 possibly)

-US-74 in Charlotte turned into a freeway (not an expressway) as part of the hypothetical I-32 project

-Complete the freeway portion of 321 all the way to I-85 and redesignate the entire segment from Hickory to Gastonia as I-340 (with new interchange)

-Complete Brookshire as a freeway all the way to I-85 (with new interchange)

-Complete the Garden Parkway (once conditions warrant) and potentially designate as I-185/385

*Note: The reason I say push for so many freeways and re-designations to Interstates is not out of necessity, but rather as a marketing trick. If the area had 4 primary interstates (I-32,77,85,40) plus multiple spurs and loops (I-277,485,340,185,177) then it could potentially increase the appeal of Charlotte to manufacturing and distribution companies who would see the massive amount of freeways as indicative of solid transportation infrastructure (Think of the Triad and all of it's spurs and loops)

Commercial Railroads:

-Close the NS Tryon yard completely and build a large classification/hump yard near I-485 in the Harrisburg/U-city area

-Expand the CSX Pinoca yard to major rail yard status; increase the size of the CSX intermodal terminal and add an automobile depot

-Extend CSX Monroe yard and recreate into a major classification/hump yard

*All three projects would likely require some public-private partnership and would probably be undertaken as part of some iteration of CRISP

-Expand new NS Airport Intermodal yard to make it the largest in the country

On a separate note the MTC has not necessarily decided to put streetcar down Monroe road. That is the one recommendation from the ULI panel that has not become policy. There is talk of further study of a railway alignment. LRT beside Independence, LRT along the CSX ROW and Commuter Rail are also being discussed.

[southslider]

Sadly, until Congress can actually pass a Transportation Reauthorization, it all seems futile.

[ajfunder]

Anything legit about this story, personally I think the best route if this was to happen would be via 9th street. My bet it is a time filler, but the connection between Gateway and the Blue line does need a 2nd look.

http://www.foxcharlotte.com/news/local/Could-Future-Transit-Plans-Lead-To-Tracks-Under-Trade--156108855.html?m=y&smobile=y

[atlrvr]

Running under 5th St would be preferable I think for the Southeast line, though I don't know if the ROW is wide enough for double tracks.

Never heard the idea of a subway seriously mentioned before.

[New Name]

Wow. That's the most "non-story" I've ever read. Maybe I should do an investigative report about flying cars. I'll ask two people in the suburbs if they think flying cars are "cool."

The only roads that are "at capacity" in Charlotte are the main arteries in/out of the 'burbs. I actually think the roads in the city (center and ring 'hoods) are overbuilt. College does not need to be 4 lanes (including on street parking that is constantly open for traffic). I'll admit that Park Road, Providence, etc are tight roads with lots of cars, but a tunnel in uptown wouldn't fix that - and there's no tunneling under those roads.

[southslider]

The LRT alternative for SE Corridor followed the side of 5th Street at-grade. A future Silver Line could tie into the Blue Line the same way the non-revenue track for the Streetcar starter project will on 5th Street.

In my own opinion, if you want to think big, we should be re-thinking what some are now calling for its own "big dig"-- the Brookshire Freeway. Instead of burying this freeway between Church and Davidson Streets, I think it should be removed from Graham Street to Independence Boulevard. If doing so, the right-of-way would free up space for an exclusive guideway linking the Blue Line to the Silver Line. Plus, you could also finally link the portions of the Little Sugar Creek Greenway in Belmont with the brand new section by CPCC and Metropolitan.

By the way, the City is hosting an open house for their "I-277 Loop Study" this coming Tuesday (June 5) from 3-7pm at the Government Center. But sadly, only the "big idea" of a "big dig" for Brookshire is being presented, not the "better idea" of "digging up" this fairly old section of Brookshire for new transit, new greenway, and new development.

Edited June 1, 2012 by southslider

[ah59396]

Southsider,

Do we have any idea on what the traffic implications of completely removing that section of road would be? I'm all for doing something with that loop, it's an eyesore and a stalwart to urban development into south end. But at this point, it is a heavily used artery moving traffic from one side of the city to the other (I drive it every day). Maybe sometime in the distant future when we have a more comprehensive mass transit plan, I could see this being removed. But for now, capping it has to be the best solution.

[ajfunder]

Don't forget the Silver Line is more or less on the no go list, while I think that is a mistake, I doubt it will be built in the next 20 years. Light Rail seems to get federal funding fairly easily, I wish CATS would design the Silver and Airport (orange) line sooner rather than later as LRT because those projects seem like the best candidates to receive federal funding. Have you noticed the orange line is no longer on the CATS transit planning website?

Edited June 1, 2012 by ajfunder

[ajfunder]

This is what I would really like to see happen in the future. Here is a little presentation of what I think would make a very efficient mass transit system. This is a plan to connect the Silver (if it is ever built), Blue line, and Blue line extension to Gateway Station without having to tunnel between CTC and Gateway.

Well here it is my center city LRT network dream using Google Earth, a couple of notes- tunnels are yellow, median running is in red, and bridges are in orange.

1st- we start with the Silver line at Hawthorne Lane instead of using city streets continue the Silver Line down Independence to Central Avenue

2nd- we continue the LRT and run it underneath the I-277/Independence interchange, this is a realitively short tunnel compared to running under Trade.

3rd- the tunnel runs underneath Trinity Episcopal school (I don't know how feasible that) and emerges in the large median of E. 9th street with a station at North Davidson street to serve the homes in 1st ward.

4th- with some road work and some property aquisition run the line from E. 9th street through some of the surface lots to the 9th street location and join up with what I would call the Center City connector spur (Denver, Colorado has a similar spur)

I will post the rest in another post.