CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[ajfunder]

Continued

5th- Run the track via the surface lots, and than close 10th street from Tryon to Church street. I would propose a station between these two roads.

6th- Using the median between Church Street and the I-277 ramp then using a large curved bridge over Graham Street to a point along the NS tracks with a station in the general area.

7th- Run the tracks via the empty lots along the NS rail line. This could be a development for a Pedestrian mall on either side of the tracks between 8th street and Trade street.

8th- Finally, using the planned bus tunnel under gateway, run the LRT under the Gateway building. This would be similar to Seattle's Link LRT which shares a tunnel with shared bus and LRT stations. The underground bus terminal is planned to have exits on Trade and 4th street, the 4th street entrance/ exit could be used for an LRT line extending to the Airport.

Well that is my little fantasy for LRT in Charlotte, hope you didn't mind. I believe it is a reasonable plan that could really connect Charlotte's center city and all of its rapid transit corridors. By having a common starting point for all the rail lines as well as some overlap, I believe it would really help make an efficient transit system.

Edited June 1, 2012 by ajfunder

[southslider]

Do we have any idea on what the traffic implications of completely removing that section of road would be?

It should be studied. Trips going through Uptown could use Belk instead. Trips beginning or ending in Uptown could exit Graham, 11th or 12th Streets at either end of the removed segment.

Ironically, the Loop Study may end up recommending removing ramps along 11th and 12th. In other words, a lot of that traffic may shift anyhow to Graham and other locations. If that's the case, a cap or tunnel will actually be more to the benefit of through traffic, instead of Uptown traffic. We already have a cap planned for Belk, so why not divert the through traffic to there?

The same amount of blocks, if not more, would result from freeway-removal as would result from a freeway-cap or a freeway-tunnel. Given that easy fact, it already seems like an inherently higher return on investment to demolish than rebuild, for a similar, if not better, result in the built environment.

The City has already committed to studying the "dig" option. I'm only asking that they also study a "removal" option.

Edited June 1, 2012 by southslider

[dubone]

I will show up to the meeting on Tuesday. But I am firmly in the belief that Belk is a significantly worse tumor on downtown surface connectivity than Brookshire ever thought about being. Neither putting it in a trench nor blowing it up will do anything to improve things because it has already a very small footprint freeway with frequent crossings. I cannot stand the favoritism of Belk over Brookshire simply because it is newer. Belk has massive sections with no way to cross it and huge high speed loops and such that have required lots of funding to make more pedestrian friendly. Brookshire wasn't built for 80mph driving so drivers don't like it, but from an urban fabric point of view, is far less obtrusive. I wish the planning people would quit focusing on Brookshire as the problem. Just because Dilworth is on the other side of Belk doesn't mean it is some miracle affluence machine. The poverty of Optimist Park and Lockwood has much more to do with the rail corridors and industrial land uses than Brookshire.

Instead, why are they not focusing on cross-connectivity improvements that would actually make a difference?

Why does 7th St bridge have a ridiculous center turn lane when there is nothing will ever be built to turn from versus wider sidewalks and bike lines on what is effectively part of the Little Sugar Creek Greenway? Why has the Davidson-Euclid crossing not gotten prioritized for being built to cut the vast section from McDowell to South Blvd? Why does the 5th St connection to Independence not include a connection to Kings if they already went to the expense of crossing under the freeway? Why does every freaking interchange require a land-eating loop?

Belk is absolutely horrible as an urban freeway. Solution from planners: let's remove Brookshire. ARGH!

[Guest]

http://obsdailyviews.blogspot.com/2012/06/ranking-charlotte-were-no-3-and-no-28.html

Charlotte Ranked number 3 in Transit Riders Increase in the US (with a 10% 680,000 person increase)! Behind only Indianapolis (big boost from superbowl) and Fort Myers, FL. Its interesting that Charlotte has 3 times as many transit riders at Indianapolis! 6.8 million vs. 2.5 million

[dubone]

Does anyone know when the 2035 transit plan will be determined? The 2030 plan was done at the end of 2006, but it is now more than 5 years later.

It makes sense that we are waiting until we see where we stabilize for revenue and the FFGA for the BLE. But a lot of strategic elements have shifted recently with Independence corridor being abandoned as a rapid transit corridor, the streetcar phase I being built by the city, and the Red Line Task Force.

It will be nice to see an update of the financing plan for the system overall and the additional of new long term strategic changes. I have seen references in MTC minutes to studying light rail to the airport, a light rail link between the blue line and Gateway Station (Mayor Foxx recommended adding that to a list to be studied), and of course the streetcar on Monroe Rd to replace the silver line.

Of course, study also needs to take place to move beyond the 15 year old concept of having a simple transit corridor in the 5 directions and look at serving growing new centers like URP, Ballantyne and South Park.

Obviously we can dream big dreams, but most of the time these dreams are not practical especially with reduced revenue projections. But some of the changes that have been made have lowered the scope of the transit system, especially the Monroe streetcar. Also, the FTA has clearly favored the model of the Blue line, which will be our main rail corridor for this decade. It makes sense to start spurring that where appropriate, with 3-5 mile spurs or extensions.

But there is a clear motivation to challenge some of the Tober-era assumptions and plans based on our learnings of the past 5 years and have a plan that includes the recent changes.

This is the most recent document I see on it:

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/about/CATSBoard/mtc/Documents/MTC%20PresentationFall%202010Retreat.pdf

[cltbwimob]

^^^The Monroe Rd. Streetcar is by no means a done deal. The only thing that the MTC did was rescind the provision for median transit in Independence. The MTC still wants to study other transit options in that corridor to include Light Rail (possibly alongside the CSX tracks). If you don't believe me, read the September 28 2011 MTC minutes, and Mary Newsom's blog from the day after.The ULI recommended streetcar, but the MTC is less excited about that option than the ULI was, and rightfully so. It is ridiculous to put a streetcar along 12-14 miles of a single highway and treat it as if it fills the role of mass transit, and it is prohibitively expensive just to build it as a neighborhood development tool. Can you imagine the outrage at building a streetcar that will cost upwards of $700 million just to serve to spark development, especially when you can serve both transit and development purposes with a well built light rail system. Besides a good portion of Monroe Rd. has single family residential development/zoning and will not likely change as a result of streetcar. I am all for streetcar built in and around the core neighborhoods, but if they build the Monroe Rd streetcar and the Central Avenue streetcar and the airport streetcar, Charlotte will have approximately 30 miles of streetcar lines serving 2 of the five major corridors. That's not a well thought out mass transit plan at all.

[dubone]

Of course it isn't a done deal as far as adding it to the official plans and putting some funding effort toward it. But by eliminating the corridor on Independence, it is either that or the CSX line. I originally preferred a CSX line for that corridor which does have some merits near town as well as being able to serve Matthews, but given that the study be credible experts pushed streetcar goes a long way. Clearly it went far enough that they abandoned the Independence Corridor.

With Independence abandoned, the only place for an LRT line is CSX, I welcome further study that compares a Monroe Rd streetcar with LRT or commuter line along the CSX corridor. Even though the FTA is far more likely to support streetcar over commuter lines, the political structure of CATS requires it to kowtow to the suburban towns, and ignore the streetcar projects serving the middle suburbs of Charlotte.

To be honest, I think given how successful our LRT lines were in the federal process, I would absolutely love to see CATS put real efforts into an LRT line combining the West and SE line that fully follows the current rail corridors. It would connect Gateway and the Blue Line, add some additional support for the edges of downtown, while having a couple interaction points with the street car to leverage it for circulation within downtown. Pretty much the 2020s could be focused on these two corridors and 2030s on reaching new locations not in the original plan.

This dream map shows possible station locations if the rail corridors were used purely for LRT in a single West and SE combined route. The total length and number of stations shown are very similar to the Blue Line (~19 miles with 26 stations). The streetcar fits perfectly in distributing what the Red, Blue and [Purple] lines would, while this new line corrects some gaps by linking directly to the Red and Blue lines with only one transfer.

[Norm2]

That is an awesome map Dubone. I think that is a very realistic proposal for what can be done. Maybe you can submit it to the MTC/CATS for their 2045 plan whenever they get around to it. How likely would CSX be willing to give up some of their land for LRT?

I do want to add that I think that LRT should stay within the boundries of 485 and not exceed this boundry. Anything outside of 485 should be served by commuter rail. I have always though of a streetcar serving local neighborhoods like a bus, LRT for if you need to get commute in the city or get from one side of town to the other, and then commuter rail for for suburbs and beyond to bring them to the city.

[kermit]

^ CSX has a long history of indifference / hostility to sharing its ROW with any form of passenger rail (I believe that their general policy is 50ft of seperation between freight tracks along with a concreet barrier). For this reason I have always dismissed discussion of transit on the CSX in Charlotte. However, it may be possible to overcome this roadblock with some creative (but unlikely) railroading...

It seems clear that transit to Matthews and Monroe is both desired and necessary. Perhaps the CSX ROW could become available to CATS if the state purchased the CSX ROW from Monroe to downtown CLT and CSX network connectivity is preserved with trackage rights on the Winston-Salem Southbound (which is currently operated by CSX) from Wadesboro to Norwood and then tackage rights from Norwood to downtown CLT on the ACWR (which is very lightly used). This shift would provide the same network connectivity for CSX (assuming a connection from the NCRR / ACWR to the CSX at the pending grade seperation north of downtown could be built), freight customers on the former CSX ROW could be served at night (on the commuter tracks, not the LRT tracks) and the ACWR could achieve a more sustainable utilization of their trackage by having CSX as a tenant. If such a transaction could be engineered then CATS would have sole posestion of an attractive, TOD friendly, and relatively quick ROW to the east side (LRT to Matthews running alongside express commuter rail tracks -- commuter trains would make normal stops from Matthews to Monroe) and CSX would still have a connection from its Wilmington / Atlanta main into Pincoa yard and Bostic.

You can see the propsed rerouting on this map: http://www.bytrain.org/quicklinks/pdf/RailMapFeb2012.pdf

[Third Strike]

What's the possibility of running some of the light rail down the middle of Monroe road, similar to how the Blue Line extension will run down North Tryon? If it is possible, then the Silver Line would look similar to the prevous Independence plan, except for running it on Independence, it would run down Monroe. When the line reaches Sardis, it will divert to Independence Pointe Pkway, and continue along until it reaches I-485 (or the Levine CPCC campus). I wonder how much more costly this will be, though.

[Norm2]

Running the light rail down the middle of the road is very expensive. Would be cheaper just to run the light rail along existing tracks.

[ajfunder]

And it can also be a issue with traffic safety running the LRT down Monroe. Houston's LRT system uses road medians and has had around 42 vehicle train collisions in recent times. Someone jokingly referred to it as the wham-bam-tram because the median running has caused confusion for motorists resulting in many accidents. The UNCC LRT will be heavily grade separated and will utilize standard railroad crossing gates unlike the Houston system, but these safety measures are costly.

[orulz]

^ CSX has a long history of indifference / hostility to sharing its ROW with any form of passenger rail (I believe that their general policy is 50ft of seperation between freight tracks along with a concreet barrier). For this reason I have always dismissed discussion of transit on the CSX in Charlotte. However, it may be possible to overcome this roadblock with some creative (but unlikely) railroading...

It seems clear that transit to Matthews and Monroe is both desired and necessary. Perhaps the CSX ROW could become available to CATS if the state purchased the CSX ROW from Monroe to downtown CLT and CSX network connectivity is preserved with trackage rights on the Winston-Salem Southbound (which is currently operated by CSX) from Wadesboro to Norwood and then tackage rights from Norwood to downtown CLT on the ACWR (which is very lightly used). This shift would provide the same network connectivity for CSX (assuming a connection from the NCRR / ACWR to the CSX at the pending grade seperation north of downtown could be built), freight customers on the former CSX ROW could be served at night (on the commuter tracks, not the LRT tracks) and the ACWR could achieve a more sustainable utilization of their trackage by having CSX as a tenant. If such a transaction could be engineered then CATS would have sole posestion of an attractive, TOD friendly, and relatively quick ROW to the east side (LRT to Matthews running alongside express commuter rail tracks -- commuter trains would make normal stops from Matthews to Monroe) and CSX would still have a connection from its Wilmington / Atlanta main into Pincoa yard and Bostic.

You can see the propsed rerouting on this map: http://www.bytrain.o...lMapFeb2012.pdf

The likelyhood of CSX willing to move all their traffic to the ACWR and WSSB is very low, even if it were upgraded and signals were added. That is an extremely curvy railroad, which means that it is slow and expensive to maintain compared with their line through Monroe which is straight as an arrow.

There is precedent, however, for CSX to sell off part of its corridor to a transit agency. They sold a strip of land along the "S" line in Raleigh to TTA back in 2003 for $24.5 million. The separation they required between their tracks and the portion of the right-of-way that was sold is 26 feet. The difference is, the line in Raleigh is basically a branch line, while the line in Charlotte is a mainline, but then the line in Raleigh is supposed to be reactivated as a mainline in the future too.

The cost of a chunk of the corridor in Charlotte will be significantly more, but If CATS can put up the money and make the case to CSX that they will only take one side of the right-of-way, leaving plenty of room for expansion of the freight line on the other side, then maybe it will be possible.

[dubone]

It certainly would be considerably more than going through existing city/state right of way such as Independence LRT/BRT or Monroe streetcar. But it is much more analogous to the Blue line following the freight line that runs ~1/2 mile away from blighted auto-oriented radial street that has hope for revitalization (South Blvd v. Monroe Rd) paralleling a congested freeway corridor (77 v Independence) going through densifying urban neighborhoods near downtown (SouthEnd/Dilworth v Plaza-Midwood/Elizabeth) with few enough crossings to allow the corridor to support mass rapid transit.

Here is my West+South East corridor LRT shown with the other near term lines, plus the other dream SouthPark and Ballantyne connections that ought to be the highest priority after the radial lines are completed.

[southslider]

Like expressways, freight railroads can be attractive, linear rights-of-way for transit guideways. Trouble is, these major facilities also tend to be barriers for transit stations and development.

The South Corridor works best for walk-access and TOD along segments where the railroad was already abandonned. Unless the CSX were to relocate, which is unlikely, other alignments seem better, namely parallel streets or even side-running along certain stretches of Independence (Pecan at Commonwealth, for example).

True, most of Monroe Road is physically constrained. But similar to the existing, preferred alignment within Matthews, which runs on Independence Pointe Parkway (not Independence Blvd.), Charlotte now has an opportunity to route its portion of the Silver Line on other "mid-line" streets, running parallel to, and in-between, Independence and Monroe.

[Norm2]

According to this new article in the Charlotte Observer, the council will more than likely pass a new budget that does not go above 2.44 cent tax increase. the council will always more than likely include the street car in this budget, despite the fact that one council member is afraid the city will lose BLE funding if the city passes the streetcar in the budget.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/06/14/3317865/council-still-split-on-city-budget.html

Edited June 15, 2012 by norm21499

[southslider]

The State's recent threat to BLE is a Senate bill. Since House Speaker Tillis represents a Lake Norman constituency wanting the Red Line, he would be commiting political suicide to let a House bill see the light of day.

McCrory is not yet Governor. Perdue could veto any bill, if Tillis decides to vote against his constituents. Perdue will also be Governor long enough to achieve a Federal Full Funding Grant Agreement.

And lastly, CATS already has a signed State Funding Agreement. If a future Governor would revoke that, or a veto were overriden, there is always the route of litigation.

[kermit]

It sounds like the state budget will be set by Friday (it is frustrating that some details of the negotiated budget are out but there has been no mention of the BLE cash). The city budget should be set on Monday. If there was any substance to the BLE for streetcar hostage story then this should provide a window for streetcar supporters to return to their original, straw-pole, posistions without risking BLE funding.

I have noticed one, small, silver lining to the streetcar kerfuffel. The Observer comment pages (which I swore off long ago) are very full of anti-streetcar venom (mostly becuase it is viewed by the knuckleheads as no improvement over a bus). The silver lining is a consistent attitude that grade seperated light rail is worth the investment (while streetrunning streetcars are not). This newfound positivism amongst the local transit skeptics is a pleasant change.

[kermit]

Was the state going to pay for its portion of the red line from its "new starts" program or was the money coming from another source? If it was new starts then does the end of the program mean that state funds for the red line are now gone?

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/06/21/3332249/legislators-restore-light-rail.html

Was this the end of the red line?

[dubone]

It was just a draft budget in the senate had deleted the Blue line funding. The state will still almost certainly participate if the other hurdles are overcome for the Red Line because of the political support by their state legislators.

The real problem is political support for the streetcar because it goes through poor neighborhoods and no suburban satellite towns, so the primary proponents of it are city council members from those neighborhoods. With CATS abandoning their own creation, it is harder and harder to turn it into reality, but at least the starter line will be built, which will create more of an itch to extend it at least a mile or two.

[kermit]

It was just a draft budget in the senate had deleted the Blue line funding. The state will still almost certainly participate if the other hurdles are overcome for the Red Line because of the political support by their state legislators.

RE the Red Line: I was referring to this tidbit from the budget:

Eliminates the state’s New Starts program that supplements federal money for urban rail transit projects. The remaining $25 million in the fund will be earmarked for Charlotte’s light-rail line, which has been the only New Starts beneficiary to date. Local officials in the Triangle and other communities with plans for light rail now will have to compete with highway projects for state money.

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/06/20/3330523/house-and-senate-leaders-present.html#storylink=cpy'>http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/06/20/3330523/house-and-senate-leaders-present.html#storylink=cpy

The above is the sidebar from this article: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/06/20/3330523/house-and-senate-leaders-present.html

Doe this policy change end the original state funding source for the Red Line? I am not sure.

[southslider]

The real problem is political support for the streetcar because it goes through poor neighborhoods ...

The CIP proposal would have traversed Sunnyside, Elizabeth, the Square, and Gateway Village, none of which are poor areas of Charlotte. But I understand your basic point about lacking suburban champions for the project.

[dubone]

To be more clear, I meant the full routing from Rosa Parks Transit Center to Eastland Transit Center overall goes neither to a satellite town and supports only the center city neighborhoods and then poorer middle/inner suburbs.

It is frustrating that a line with a significant ridership projection cannot get any love, while the Red Line is getting so much attention despite a paltry projection of ridership.

And someone explain why even if Charlotte builds the streetcar that CATS will not include operations of it in their budget!? It is an electric system vs gas (fraction of cost), and they already have drivers on staff? CATS INVENTED THIS PROJECT. They pushed the idea of this project in countless public meetings as being important capacity increase for 3 of their top ridership bus routes. The population along this line, while lower income (transit riders) or center city urbanites (transit riders), is also fairly large because of density. This project fills a ridiculous gap between Gateway Station and CTC, and distributes riders from the Red and Blue lines to employment hubs like JCSmith, CPCC, Presbyterian Hospital, Charlotte/Mecklenburg Government District, Gateway Village.

It is absurd that CATS/MTC has totally abandoned this line. It is fine if it is lower priority and requires some city involvement for speedier construction, but the total disavowment of it is frustrating. If central streetcars are not going to be considered, then absolutely CATS needs to come up with a plan for serving the airport and eastern/southeastern Charlotte with a light rail line.

Frankly, with the costs per mile that the streetcar is ending up costing, it seems it isn't much cheaper than a light rail line.

[ah59396]

It is absurd that CATS/MTC has totally abandoned this line. It is fine if it is lower priority and requires some city involvement for speedier construction, but the total disavowment of it is frustrating. If central streetcars are not going to be considered, then absolutely CATS needs to come up with a plan for serving the airport and eastern/southeastern Charlotte with a light rail line.

Frankly, with the costs per mile that the streetcar is ending up costing, it seems it isn't much cheaper than a light rail line.

I agree Dubone. At this point I hope CATS focus becomes finishing the blue line extension and focusing on a new line to the airport. It's a no-brainer IMO. It always annoys me when I fly to a city (with a metro system) that doesn't have an airport link (I'm staring at you Toronto and Dublin).

I honestly believe you'd see an influx of additional tourism if we had that connection. I'd also argue it would solidify our infrastructure for future large scale events a la "superbowl" or "Pan-Am Games."

[cltbwimob]

I think it is high time the city re-evaluates it's entire transit plan. Get the Red Line and BLE secured and then basically scrap the rest of the plan and come up with a plan that addresses the transit needs not just until 2035 but to 2050 and beyond. My solution would be to add an LRT line from Gateway to the airport next, followed by a line to the Southeast. Perhaps you could even run a line along Central Ave to Eastland and then from there skip over to Independence/CSX Rail line all the way to Matthews. That would probably cost about the same as as all the ULI streetcar recommendations and actually be useful and not just some worthless billion dollar tinker toy streetcar lines that have no other purpose than to catalyze development. Secondary priorities to be completed after those lines would be LRT extensions to Ballantyne, Southpark, Speedway/Concord Mills area, and University Research Park as well as commuter rail to Monroe, Gastonia, Kannapolis/Salisbury, and Rock Hill. Tertiary priorities could be limited streetcar extending to neighborhoods no further than 2.5 miles from center city specifically Midtown/CFC, Freedom Drive, JCSU, Plaza-Midwood, and commuter rail to Stanly and Lincoln Counties. Throw in Intercity Rail to Columbia (Silver Star re-route), Charleston, Asheville, and Wilmington, and the city would finally have a system to be excited about, and it would go a long way towards accomplishing both transit as well as development objectives throughout the entire region.

Edited June 25, 2012 by cltbwimob