CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[TotalLamer]

 Exactly!

 

And if you really want to appeal to the railroad gods you use the old P&N shops that still stand near (south of) the CSX inter-modal yard as a LTR service center. One can dream.

 

TH

 

Umm... you realize the P&N shops are still in use right?

 

Honestly, as sad as it is to say, the P&N shops don't have much historical value left.  They've been so heavily altered and renovated over the years it's just hideous now.

Edited January 17, 2013 by TotalLamer

[thetrick]

Umm... you realize the P&N shops are still in use right?

 

Honestly, as sad as it is to say, the P&N shops don't have much historical value left.  They've been so heavily altered and renovated over the years it's just hideous now.

I figured they were in use, I did not know how bad off they were. Charlotte has so little of it's railroading past intact I will take whatever I can get.

 

TH

[ajfunder]

There is lots of remnants if you take the time to look, but it is true that most of the interesting things are gone. It is actually quite fun to search out old remnants (coming from a railroad historian). One example is the old bridge pier near BofA stadium which used to connect from the Southern Station to where the LRT currently passes over I-277.

[TotalLamer]

I figured they were in use, I did not know how bad off they were. Charlotte has so little of it's railroading past intact I will take whatever I can get.

 

TH

 

If I get back to work this week I'll see if I can get some pics.  The original windows have all been either bricked up or had smaller windows installed inside their openings and the remaining area bricked... there have been a lot of add-on spaces built inside and outside the building too, most of it looking very 70s or 80s since the shops aren't that busy these days.  I imagine there was a big Mechanical crew that worked there a few decades ago but these days, Pinoca doesn't serve nearly as many industrial customers as it once did.

[southslider]

The N-S right of way does not have to be rider-free from the west side or 485/85.  It is only a block off of Wilkinson and closer to other neighborhoods south of the tracks than Wilkinson.  

 

The problem with the west line is actually its greatest asset, in that it is relatively close to downtown.   As a result, the plans seem to focus on a standalone airport line instead of making a project long and big enough to have diverse ridership/trips.  It seems that light rail lines seems to work best as projects 9-10 miles long, so why does it need to stop at downtown as though it is only delivering people from the airport to the bank towers.   Once it gets long enough AND has easy transfers to the 20-mile Blue Line, you get a significant combination of possibilities, including being much more useful to airport workers and travelers. 

 

If we pursued an East-West light rail that has an eventual tragectory toward Matthews, we would be getting somewhere with the politics, including the fact that many suburbanites actually do support rail to airports because that is a time when they will not want/need to hassle with their cars.   The first phase would be the western half ~9.5mi from a 485 commuter station to Grier Heights/Bo's Coliseum area.  It would serve a lot more of a population than just the west side or just the airport. 

- On the west, you get a 485 commuter station, which would be the typical commuting corridor to downtown or to institutions already on the rail system.

- Then you get an airport station, obviously for airport to downtown, to inner east Charlotte, or to anywhere on the blue line. 

- West Charlotte stations along the N-S would be just a block off of Wilkinson, very practical still for the Walmart zone, and the business and industrial parks along the corridor

- Following the N-S tracks through downtown opens up a large number of destinations and trips, including the BofA and BB&T stadiums, 3rd Ward, Gateway Station (critical to be included on the light rail system), Gateway Village, the massive TOD zone around Gateway Station, 4th Ward (the densest neighborhood in the city), and NC Music Factory.

- Then following the CSX corridor, you open up the territory northeast of Brookshire Freeway that the 277 Study is hoping to open up for redevelopment

- It allows for a direct transfer to the Blue Line just north of downtown

- As it continues on the CSX corridor, stations can be placed to connect to First Ward, Optimist Park, and Belmont on its way to the heart of Midwood

- A station in the heart of Midwood at Central Ave would be a tranfer point to the streetcar line to distribute riders to Presbyterian Hospital and other points down Central, however far the streetcar would go.

- A station at Pecan is in the heart of Elizabeth, and support Presby and CMC-Mercy

- Finally, ending the first phase at Briar Creek Greenway at Monroe, serving Grier Heights and Chantilly as well the activity center around the Bojangle's Coliseum.  Briar Creek Greenway also would bring accessibility to the Mint Museum, a number of medical parks off Randolph.

 

It brings many of the inner ring neighborhoods that have a decent basis for further densification and growth on the rail system, clearly providing opportunities and conditions similar to South End on the Blue Line, while also serving significant other places that can drive night time and commuting or tourist ridership beyond the very significant anchorship of the airport and downtown.   

 

 

Will it be money? Yes, but it would be a line that DESERVES the expense compared to some of the streetcar options for the east and west, and a line that could also yield federal dollars much more easily than the streetcar lines seem to.    That means that we could potentially spend the SAME or LESS local dollars because it would meet the conditions of federal grants. 

 

Just change the routing through Uptown to interline with the existing Blue Line between the CSX and Carson, and I rather like this concept.  Basically, east-west commuters should be able to access the same Uptown stations as north-south commuters.  Interlining would be less track to build, not force transfers for Uptown trips, plus split the transfers between two stations (9th Street and Carson) for non-Uptown trips.

[15895]

I think a park and ride at 485 near the airport would be great. Tons of people from Gastonia/Belmont area already drive to the 485 park and ride... Why they go all the way over there as opposed to another park and ride is beyond me but tons of people (who otherwise probably wouldn't go to uptown for leisure) do because it's easy and they don't get lost.

[dubone]

Just change the routing through Uptown to interline with the existing Blue Line between the CSX and Carson, and I rather like this concept.  Basically, east-west commuters should be able to access the same Uptown stations as north-south commuters.  Interlining would be less track to build, not force transfers for Uptown trips, plus split the transfers between two stations (9th Street and Carson) for non-Uptown trips.

 

I have that as an option shown in light purple.  I do think the N-S to CSX corridor adds a lot to the system, not the least of which is supporting BofA stadium and Gateway Station directly.   Frankly, I think BOTH ought to be built, even though this is just a fanboy dream and not likely something that the reductionist civic leaders would pursue.

[Third Strike]

Dubone, based on your map, how would a line out to Southpark (from the Blue Line) work? Would the city acquire the adjacent property near Tyvola for the ROW, or would the light rail act as a streetcar, by sharing its ROW with traffic?

[dubone]

The same way some dude at CATS draw a line on North Tryon and now it is a federally funded project, in the median of a wide and major road.

 

I think the freight corridor has a serious benefit for connecting the airport to downtown and down the SouthEast in a way that will hit more interesting and close proximity sites compared to the Independence Route originally slated.  But of course the circumferential route from the airport to Tyvola area office parks to South Park has come up a lot on this site.  I think the most obvious way for a dream circumferential route would be first the freight corridor.  Just because it is currently freight doesn't mean light rail could not be built alongside, just as is happening for more than half of the Blue Line in both directions.  Obviously once east of the Blue line, the line I drew in Yellow would pretty much need to be a median light rail line.  There are already medians for much of Tyvola/Fairview, but certainly just like on N Tryon, CATS would need to take some land to widen it appropriately.  In this area, it is actually still mainly 60s- ranches with front yards, so it would actually likely be cheaper to do this here than it was on N Tryon with so active businesses.   

 

For a serious transit system in this city, we will not be able to ignore SouthPark for long.  It is a serious contender for second-downtown with the density of corporate HQs, office projects, retail density, and increasingly residential density.  

 

I think the East-West Airport to Matthews corridor is much more significant given the sheer number of institutions and denser neighborhoods it would reach, but that circumferential line would hit some major employment areas that are currently outside of the  reach of our long term rail transit plans.  

 

We will be best served in the long run to study a more comprehensive rail system rather than be caught in an unlivable city in 20 years.  in 2033, people will not give 2 craps about the Bush real estate bubble and bust, but they will care about whether they can sort out a reasonable quality of life for living, socializing, eating, working, and traveling for each.   If we stop planning the appropriate infrastructure for a Charlotte with 4-5 million people, we might find ourselves hating that those people showed up.  That may be fine for some people, to flee to the distant exurbs and stockpile guns and gold and pray for the city nightmare to end.    The rest of us need to make reasonable accommodation and plan ahead.    When I moved here 12 years ago, the city was doing just that, and proceeded to plan and build the TWC Arena, the Blue line, Little Sugar Creek Greenway, hospital expansions, Metropolitan, the museums, 485 (it was only from S Tryon to ~Providence  and 85N to N Tryon at the time), CPCC expansion, NC Music Factory, etc.   There was a legitimate effort to make this city something better, and so much happened, I am proud to be here.

 

I worry that with Wachovia absorbed in WF, BofA earning only pennies a share for years, Duke and other HQ companies threatening to move, and the fact that online shopping and recession spending have caused our transit tax revenues to wane, that our leaders are somehow stuck focused only on the very short term.     Why could the city start planning in the 1990s for lines that are just starting to get built, but we are not making efforts to fund even evolved variations of those remaining lines, nor are they dreaming up plans for new infrastructure or lines?    Are we "DONE" once 485 is done, 85 and 77 are 8 lanes and we have a couple new tollway spurs?   Why are we not planning some big infrastructure investments to be completed within the decade?  

 

Anyway, a Ballantyne blue line extension, a South Park spur, an East-West airport to Matthews light rail line, all should be no brainer plans for the 2020s, even if we can't hope to afford them all in 2013.   But hey, maybe a few escalators in BofA stadium is the best the city can do now.

[DEnd]

For a serious transit system in this city, we will not be able to ignore SouthPark for long.  It is a serious contender for second-downtown with the density of corporate HQs, office projects, retail density, and increasingly residential density.  

 

Second Downtown?  It'd make a great contender for an actual Downtown.

[Matthew.Brendan]

Seriously. There's arguably far more to "do" in SouthPark. At least "Uptown" makes sense if you think of it that way.

Edit: what would you consider the "center" of downtown SouthPark? Where would any equivalent transit center best be located?

Edited January 18, 2013 by melk

[RugbyPike#11]

Maybe I missed this, but don't the red line tracks extend past Gateway station to the airport?  Could we simply supplement a commuter train stop to the airport with additional RDC service between uptown and the airport?  Maybe the RDC could stop at Gateway Station and also service the Light Rail via the Parkwood station.

[HopHead]

Seriously. There's arguably far more to "do" in SouthPark. At least "Uptown" makes sense if you think of it that way.

Edit: what would you consider the "center" of downtown SouthPark? Where would any equivalent transit center best be located?

 

Well, it depends on your preference. Do you prefer shopping, eating at restaurants and working (SouthPark) or going to shows/sporting events/museums, eating at restaurants and working (Uptown). In that regard, Uptown dwarfs Southpark though you could definitely make the argument that Southpark is the second best destination in the city. Therefore  a light rail line to that area would do well. Very well actually.

Edited January 18, 2013 by wend28

[kermit]

^ I have not seen the data but I have always heard that Southpark is the second largest business district in North Carolina (after uptown). I think its based on office space.

[Guest]

^ I have not seen the data but I have always heard that Southpark is the second largest business district in North Carolina (after uptown). I think its based on office space.

Maybe "Urban business district" RTP would be the largest. However its 22,5000,000 square feet of leasable square feet sits on 7,000 acres.

Interestingly enough it would seem Southpark is 5th largest. I'm still doing the research (on my companies dime, lol)

Downtown Charlotte: 21,640,000 square feet of office + 2,000,000 square feet of retail 23,640,000 (19,000,000 in 2009, did not include Nascar Tower(390k), Duke Energy Center(1.5k) and Bofa 1(750k))

RTP: 22,500,000 square feet

Ballantyne:5.5 million square feet. (soon to add another million)

Downtown Raleigh: 5.275 million

SouthPark Area: 4.7 million square feet

DT Winston Salem - 2,372,920 sq. feet  

DT Greensboro: 2 million square feet.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Guest

[15895]

So maybe with some extra money from the tax increase for the Panthers, maybe it can be used to fund some CIP projects and then when the city council is ready to settle on the CIP they can say "we cut some projects out of the CIP so residents don't have to pay as high of property increases" and through in the streetcar (since the public has already swallowed the pill that it might be included in the CIP)

Imagine the outrage if they used some extra money from the tax to fund the streetcar. Holy smokes would there be some rage

[Urbanity]

I thought that some of that "extra money" was already hinted at as CRVA claiming for the 1,000+ room hotel they want?

[15895]

I read that (about the 1,000 room hotel) as why they they didn't use the surplus and raise the hotel/tourism taxes was for the hotel for the panthers.

IMO it would be politically smart to use that money for the CIP and then tell the public they compromised and reduced the package.

To tie that in with transportation is that the new tax could inadvertently help streetcar get passed in the CIP

Edited January 18, 2013 by AirNostrumMAD

[28202]

I think the "Southpark as 2nd largest" was at that time termed "concentration of jobs" in NC.

[Guest]

I think the "Southpark as 2nd largest" was at that time termed "concentration of jobs" in NC.

No way, RTP has nearly 50,000 people working there, Southpark might have 20,000 MIGHT

[RVA2CLT]

Anyone have Premium access to Charlotte Business Journal to see "What Raleigh Could Do For Transit in Charlotte"?
 

Edited January 18, 2013 by RVA2CLT

[dubone]

These include flexibility for special tax districts and government bond financing options that could be used for a proposed 25-mile commuter rail line between uptown and Mooresville, as well as permission to extend the length of some buses to 60 feet from the current limit of 45 feet.

 

It is just talking about the legislative agenda, primarily around the Red line, which is CATS's next priority now that the BLE is funded.

[kermit]

Anyone have Premium access to Charlotte Business Journal to see "What Raleigh Could Do For Transit in Charlotte"?

 

 

Its really not much of an article. This quote is the core of it:

 

These include flexibility for special tax districts and government bond financing options that could be used for a proposed 25-mile commuter rail line between uptown and Mooresville, as well as permission to extend the length of some buses to 60 feet from the current limit of 45 feet.

 

beyond that it mentions that there was no discussion of the streetcar and that mayor Foxx said to legislatures that he wants to "begin" discussing funding the 2030 plan (no further details on that) -- given that Carolyn Flowers was quoted as being optimistic about economic development along the BLE I suspect we can guess what funding option they prefer. The remainder of the article was just the standard "CATS is broke" stuff.

 

EDIT: What dubone said....

Edited January 18, 2013 by kermit

[ah59396]

This is the most encouraging long term transit planning article I've read in a while.  Obviously there is a tough road ahead, but at least we seem to be aware of it.  If we are going to raise taxes for anything, THIS holds the most merit IMO.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/2013/01/charlotte-transit-wish-list-billion.html

[RVA2CLT]

^^^Agreed, at least it is an active and reasonable approach vs throwing spaghetti at the wall.
i must say though, some of the the names they comes up with for these 'committees' sounds like an authentic Oriental restaurant menus' English translation:  'The Transportation Finance Working Group'