CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[southslider]

^No, Orange line runs on Tryon.  Red line remains between JCSU and CPCC.

[RiverwoodCLT]

U.S. Senate confirms Charlotte's Anthony Foxx as secretary of transportation. Hope this will help us in Charlotte.

[CltFlyer]

U.S. Senate confirms Charlotte's Anthony Foxx as secretary of transportation. Hope this will help us in Charlotte.

While it's good to see him having a larger role in Gov't.  Does he even know much about transportation?

[15895]

^ Not many secretaries have.

Foxx is underrated in his hometown. History will be kind to him. So will the future.

[Urbanity]

Tons of interesting tidbits about all current CATS projects in the FTA Agenda of July 19, 2013 

 

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/planning/BLE/overview/Documents/FTA-QRM-Agenda-071913.pdf

[ah59396]

I'm not sure if I read all of that correctly.  What is the $192,000,000 federal grant pending for "South Corridor Light Rail New Starts" for?  It says it completes on 9/30/13?

 

Also, I found it disappointing, the lack of any information or timeline what so ever regarding Gateway Station.  They had like, half a page on it.

[Urbanity]

^It seems to be re: original Blue line. (Though I may be misunderstanding as well) because I googled the term "South Corridor Light Rail Project (New Starts)" and the first three results are old docs/links dating back to planning of the original LRT.

 

BTW - For a laugh, look at the first document (link) and you'll laugh at how far CLT has come in presenting its mass transit needs...

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2013 by Urbanity

[Guest]

^It seems to be re: original Blue line. (Though I may be misunderstanding as well) because I googled the term "South Corridor Light Rail Project (New Starts)" and the first three results are old docs/links dating back to planning of the original LRT.

 

BTW - For a laugh, look at the first document (link) and you'll laugh at how far CLT has come in presenting its mass transit needs...

 

 

7-23-2013 12-12-16 PM.jpg

 

Wow... isn't that special. I have always been astounded by how dated the Cities presentations are, but damn thats amazingly bad.

[kermit]

Tons of interesting tidbits about all current CATS projects in the FTA Agenda of July 19, 2013 

 

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/planning/BLE/overview/Documents/FTA-QRM-Agenda-071913.pdf

 

Wow, that is a great document. Among other things it solves the mystery of the TIGER V Grants. CATS currently has two applications outstanding:

 

• LYNX Blue Line Capacity Expansion (Phase 2) $20 million I assume this proposes to convert the remaining platforms to accommodate three car trains. Phase 1 of this project is currently underway (Stonewall, 485 and some electrical work)
• CityLYNX Gold Line (Phase 2) $24 million. Not sure what fraction of the streetcar expansion this is proposed for.

(CATS has applied for roughly 10% of all the TIGER funds available this cycle. Awards are expected to be announced in the fall)

 

The streetcar starter project is currently on schedule for its proposed March 2015 opening

 

In addition I am pleased to see that CATS is revisiting Federal support for the Red Line: "CATS currently is waiting for new guidance in the New Starts process before making a decision to seek FTA funding for the Red Line Commuter Rail Project." (p80)

Edited July 25, 2013 by kermit

[dubone]

$24m would be to extend it to Gateway.  I have heard (and that budget would follow) that they opted to only seek an incremental expansion this year to get the streetcar the rest of the way to Gateway instead of the 4 mile plan that was in the CIP.   My sense is that with the local match in hand for the 4 miles, this will allow the city/CATS to submit for various grants along the way.  Obviously the TIGER grants are for smaller scale projects, so extending the one additional (but critical) mile was the way to go.  But we could then be still submitting for Small Starts funding in the more traditional transit funding process.  The more TIGER grants we may accumulate along the way, though, the better.

 

When we got the original streetcar grant we also got the Blue line station expansion (Phase I).   Hopefully there is a chance we can get both in this round as well, but that may be overly optimistic.

 

 

Overall, I am happy with the progress we have made in transit in the last few years, despite the recession and economic doldrums.  If we can continue to incrementally expand for the rest of this decade, it will be of tremendous value.  Once the Blue Line and the heart of the streetcar network is built, it ought to make it that much easier to justify new lines (or so it seems in other cities).  That is, unless we accidentally provided rapid transit between the Hidden Valley Kings to MS-13 territory.

 

[ajfunder]

Won't the city have to provide a match for the $24 million, if so I feel like $48 million would extend it a little further then just Gateway (such as to Sunnyside near Central Avenue. The good news is that for an extension to Gateway Station only, the city would still buy 3 modern streetcars.

[tozmervo]

It's very confusing since Phase 2 of Gold, as approved by the city council, would run from French St in the west to Sunnyside Ave in the east. 

 

Having said that, I could see $48 million being what it costs to get it down to Gateway or 77. Going through Uptown, I would guess, would add a lot of costs that wouldn't be as significant further out. Much denser and larger utilities, coordination logistics, higher liability, etc.

[dubone]

Yes, I think matching may be involved just like the original TIGER grants, but I'm not so sure that it would get us much extra mileage because it also includes new vehicles.

[kermit]

Its interesting (but just academic at this point) that Atlanta is considering a tax on parking to pay for transit.

 

Given that its Atlanta it won't happen, but if they can even think about it there then it may be worth considering here.

 

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2013/08/12/might-atlanta-tax-parking-to-fund-transit/

[utcharlotte]

Its interesting (but just academic at this point) that Atlanta is considering a tax on parking to pay for transit.

 

Given that its Atlanta it won't happen, but if they can even think about it there then it may be worth considering here.

 

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2013/08/12/might-atlanta-tax-parking-to-fund-transit/

 

If you're going to tax parking, don't put a minimum on parking spaces.  This would be a fantastic idea if the entire region were to then remove parking minimums and really let the market decide.

[Third Strike]

I created a map of Charlotte's current and future transit plans in Maps Engine Lite, which is a successor to My Maps. I know there's an older My Maps version floating around here, but I went ahead and made one in Maps Engine. If anything looks incorrect, please let me know. I wasn't sure if the West Corridor Streetcar was suppose to run on Graham to Moorehead, or if it was Cedar to Moorehead (I saw two different maps that contradicted each other). I also plan to add Raleigh/Durham's transit plans in another layer, and NC's intercity/HSR in another.

 

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/viewer?mid=z2q-Qs5Pj1JY.kKKNWabPUtos&hl=en

[kermit]

The Chicago press reported today that CTA has 'been given a gift from the Obama administration' for a $2-$5 billion Red/Purple Line rebuilding project.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20131119/BLOGS02/131119746/red-purple-line-rebuild-gets-big-boost-from-feds

 

In three years we will have elected the next federal administration. That will (almost certainly) also be the end of Anthony Foxx's term as DOT Secretary. Once Foxx's recuseal on Charlotte area issues ends I doubt Charlotte will ever have a better opportunity to land federal funding for transit.  The Streetcar phase 2 New Starts grant is a good start but there are other looming opportunities: 

• The Red Line: New FTA guidelines may open the door for federal funds and the current hold-up, the NS capacity study, should be finished in the next six months.
• Streetcar Phase 3 (I-85 and Plaza Midwood):  The source of a local match is tricky, but perhaps Carlee can fund more change in the couch cushions at the government center.
• Silver Line Hybrid: (the combination Streetcar / Matthews routing mentioned in the streetcar thread). While this would almost certainly require a new source of local funding (another 1/2 cent sales tax enabled by a post McPope state government?) but shared infrastructure with the streetcar and some innovative design and creative rezoning and developer PPP could make this a showcase project for the feds in a purple state.

Given our problems with our local funding, the state government, and Sen Hagan's tenuous status, all this is ephemeral, Despite that, I do hope that the staff at CATS recognizes the unique window of opportunity the next three years may bring.

Edited November 20, 2013 by kermit

[dubone]

The Silver line you describe would absolutely not be a contender for any federal funding during the Obama administration.  CATS has not even done any of the early work to support early design work on that corridor.   They are actually missing out because if any redevelopment work happens to rebuild Monroe Road as part of the CIP, but they decline to factor in streetcar, it will be more work to add later. 

 

Our problem lately is that we have very little leadership or consensus on the lines beyond the initial segments of the Gold and the Red Lines.    

 

I actually think that privately, people in CATS assume that the only transit in the South East corridor will actually be buses using the eventual HOV lane on Independence.  

[Urbanity]

In retrospect I think the MTC made a huge mistake not immediately commissioning BRT in 2006 (or as soon as possible) down Independence with limited stops while in tandem exploring LRT and Streetcar options.     Instead they decided to put off the decision (back in 2006) for at least five years to study rail down the corridor.  I really think this was a huge loss opportunity. 

 

I may be off on this (and this board will correct me with ease if I am) but the city would have been better off at least having BRT over nothing all these years down Independence which would have demonstrated the need for such large scale mass transit projects and increased city statistics of workers using mass transit while consequently making the argument for more federal and state funding for Charlotte mass transit projects.

 

As it is now we have only one half of a rail line complete, a limited streetcar in construction, and a lot of loss momentum.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Urbanity

[ah59396]

When done properly, BRT can be just as effective as LRT or streetcar.  I find the decision to move 74 forward without the widening extremely short sighted.  If it had dedicated bus-way and real stations like below, I would imagine ridership to be virtually equal to that of LRT at half the cost.

 

[cltbwimob]

The Silver line you describe would absolutely not be a contender for any federal funding during the Obama administration. CATS has not even done any of the early work to support early design work on that corridor. They are actually missing out because if any redevelopment work happens to rebuild Monroe Road as part of the CIP, but they decline to factor in streetcar, it will be more work to add later.

Our problem lately is that we have very little leadership or consensus on the lines beyond the initial segments of the Gold and the Red Lines.

I actually think that privately, people in CATS assume that the only transit in the South East corridor will actually be buses using the eventual HOV lane on Independence.

I do not understand why people are fascinated with this Monroe Rd streetcar idea. Even websites such as The Atlantic Cities are now beginning to release articles about the perils of implementing Streetcar as a redevelopment tool and not making transit choices based on mobility and redevelopment. But the concept of streetcars along the 13 mile corridor from Matthews to Charlotte is baffling, considering they offer average speeds of 8-10 miles per hour. In fact, their mobility factor is so poor, that it has been postulated that a rider traveling 3/4 mile or less would, in most cases, be best served to walk to their destination. Beyond 2 miles, it is better just to drive.

In fact, I saw a headline a few days ago indicating that a good bike share program may provide just as much mobility as streetcar...This is why streetcar only does well in small segments serving dense populations. Most of the streetcar systems being implemented around the country are small lines within the center of population. Charlotte is the only city, from what I can tell, that is considering their use for large in-commuting corridors. I know everyone loves to point to Portland as the shimmering example of streetcar done right, but lets not forget that part of the reason it works is because it is used in and around downtown only. It may be planned to eventually cover over 10 miles of track, but only serves downtown and the neighborhoods adjacent to downtown. LRT is still the backbone of their transit system.

Given all the above, why would it be advantageous for the city to spend $50M per mile in today's dollars to service a 13 mile commuter corridor? Furthermore, what is the impetus to redevelop Monroe Rd? The area is not really blighted, and huge swaths of the land surrounding the road are suburban single family developments unsuitable for TOD...Older neighborhoods perhaps, but far from blighted.

The joint silver line/streetcar alignment is a great idea. Along Central Avenue, it could run more like Rapid Streetcar including having its own dedicated ROW in the center lanes, a reduced station count, and signal priority with a 35mph speed limit. It could then connect to the Silver Line alignment via a Sharon Amity ROW and continue to Matthews at LRT speeds. It would reduce the need for about 5 miles of LRT tracks as is proposed in the current MTC Silver Line alignment. It would eliminate ridership cannabalization by reducing the need for 2-3 parallel transit lines (all in some cases just a few blocks from eachother) to a single line, thereby actually making it more likely to receive federal funding under cost effectiveness and ridership standards.

Edited November 20, 2013 by cltbwimob

[archiham04]

I created a map of Charlotte's current and future transit plans in Maps Engine Lite, which is a successor to My Maps. I know there's an older My Maps version floating around here, but I went ahead and made one in Maps Engine. If anything looks incorrect, please let me know. I wasn't sure if the West Corridor Streetcar was suppose to run on Graham to Moorehead, or if it was Cedar to Moorehead (I saw two different maps that contradicted each other). I also plan to add Raleigh/Durham's transit plans in another layer, and NC's intercity/HSR in another.

 

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/viewer?mid=z2q-Qs5Pj1JY.kKKNWabPUtos&hl=en

Bland St Station is missing

[nowensone]

When done properly, BRT can be just as effective as LRT or streetcar.  I find the decision to move 74 forward without the widening extremely short sighted.  If it had dedicated bus-way and real stations like below, I would imagine ridership to be virtually equal to that of LRT at half the cost.

 

 

Have never had a high opinion of BRT, and for probably the shallowest of reasons that it looks like crap, but, in our current environment, the above just makes too much sense in terms of cost.  Not to mention that adding buses is very simple/cheap.  I would have thought it would be less than half the cost of LRT though.

[southslider]

BRT on Independence would require NCDOT to actually treat Independence as a Boulevard, not an Expressway.

[birky]

I created a map of Charlotte's current and future transit plans in Maps Engine Lite, which is a successor to My Maps. I know there's an older My Maps version floating around here, but I went ahead and made one in Maps Engine. If anything looks incorrect, please let me know. I wasn't sure if the West Corridor Streetcar was suppose to run on Graham to Moorehead, or if it was Cedar to Moorehead (I saw two different maps that contradicted each other). I also plan to add Raleigh/Durham's transit plans in another layer, and NC's intercity/HSR in another.

 

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/viewer?mid=z2q-Qs5Pj1JY.kKKNWabPUtos&hl=en

This is pretty cool.  I can't look at this, though, and not see a need for something down Providence at some point in the [distant, distant] future.