CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[mallguy]

It is impossible to say which is a 'better' railroad -- there are too many different metrics which can be used. My intent was to present the publicly held SBB as an example of a very efficient railroad which may offer a useful ownership model for the NCRR.

There is more than one way to run a railroad and I know first hand that Gallimore and Meyer are certainly not the definitive, only, or even most authoritative word on the 'right' way to do it.

As I said before, my opinion is that North Carolinians (the primary steakholders of the NCRR) will be much worse off if the NCRR is privatized. A private freight hauler will not (and can not) efficiently invest in the economic development of our state.

By EVERY relevant metric, Norfolk Southern performs better than SBB.

EVERY reputable railroad economist, even Democrats such as Gallamore and Meyer, agrees that government ownership of a railroad leads to less efficiency, lost productivity, higher rates and lower returns to taxpayers. The European Union has gone so far as to end state-owned railroad monopolies (although Switzerland isn't part of the EU), and the only resistance there is from (1) entrenched special interests such as state-owned railroad bosses and (2) union members representing state-owned railroad employees.

Let's compare NS and SBB some more:

Freight market share for rail:

NS: 40%; SBB: 25%

Freight market share by road in relevant territory:

US: 30%; Switzerland: 40%

Rate per ton-mile of freight shipped:

NS: 4 cents; SBB: 7 cents

Profitable on freight operations:

NS: Yes; SBB: No

So which railroad allows shippers to pay less, takes more trucks off the road and returns profits to investors and tax revenues to taxpayers? Norfolk Southern.

Which railroad charges shippers more, takes fewer trucks off the road and requires ongoing taxpayer support even for freight operations? SBB.

It's clear that Norfolk Southern does a lot more for economic development in NC than SBB does in Switzerland. Yes, Swiss Railways operates a lot of passenger trains, which help economic development, and there aren't many in North Carolina, but that's the choice of North Carolina's government in not finding ways to provide for more.

[kermit]

First, there is no unanimity of opinion in the field of economics (despite what political discourse attempts to get americans to believe). So statements like 'every reputable economist' show that you have failed to consider other perspectives and models. I presented SBB as one these alternative perspectives to railroading -- an opportunity for innovation, rather than an iterative reliance on freight rail models.

You also claim that NS is superior to SBB 'by every relevant metric' and then you quote a list of freight only metrics. You have shown this myopia before, railroading is not a freight-only business in most parts of the world. There are huge benefits which accrue from personal mobility, and unfortunately you have chosen to dismiss these metrics as irrelevant -- they clearly are not. A secondary dimension of railroad performance metric is economic development, you offer no metrics for that (although you imply that freight efficiency alone is the core of economic development -- it is not the only factor). While causality in economic is genuinely impossible to measure it is certainly not irrelevant or insignificant.

I presented the SBB model as an example of a railroad which does personal mobility and economic development really well (all while carrying similar volumes of freight as the NCRR portion of NS). As long as you are unwilling to consider these dimensions there is no point in continuing this discussion.

[ah59396]

Holy hell, I'm completely lost

Edited July 6, 2014 by ah59396

[Norm2]

Holy hell, I'm completely lost

You are not alone!

[mallguy]

You are not alone!

Same here.

Kermit was saying that Swiss Federal Railways (SBB) is a model of mobility and economic development and, in turn, that public ownership of railroads is a good thing. Since he cited no facts to back up his personal allegations, I compared SBB to Norfolk Southern.

Both companies can be compared for freight operations, and NS wins hands-down, offering lower prices for shippers, more trucks taken off the road and significant tax dollars paid to the government, versus SBB's higher prices for shippers, fewer trucks taken off the road and need for government subsidies.

Even though neither the NCRR nor Norfolk Southern operates passenger trains, Kermit wants a comparison to be made for passenger operations as well. I'm happy to do that and can compare SBB to the local passenger railroad, Amtrak.

Cost-Recovery Ratios (the percentage of operating costs that are covered by tickets and other customer payments):

Amtrak: 88%; SBB 81%

Sources: http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/intercity/amtrak-emphasizes-capital-in-fy14-request.html

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/intercity/amtrak-touts-strong-cost-recovery-ratio.html

Amtrak has fewer passenger trains per mile of track than SBB does, but that's due to the choice of Washington and Raleigh, not the railroad. Based on the ratios above, if we let Amtrak run as many passenger trains as SBB does, Amtrak would do a lot better, financially, and would require fewer tax dollars to do so.

So, to recap:

Winner in NS vs. SBB Freight Competition: Norfolk Southern

Winner in Amtrak vs. SBB Passenger Efficiency Competition: Amtrak

Since I work in the rail industry and have dealt with both publicly-owned and privately-run railroads, I still stand behind my (and every reputable economist's) view that public ownership of railroads leads to poorer outcomes for the taxpayers, railroad users and railroad investors. Indiana was the latest government to see the light, and it has replaced Amtrak with a private operator (under contract, and receiving subsidies) to run the Hoosier State train between Chicago and Indianapolis.

Conclusion: Government-owned railroads have higher prices and less efficiency than private-owned railroads do, and so railroads should never be publicly-owned unless there is no alternative (and there always is). Sell the NCRR!

Edited July 6, 2014 by mallguy

[allthingsplanes]

Why is this conversation even in this thread?  There's a thread about railroads right?  I know this started regarding the Red Line but clearly isn't about that anymore.

[cltbwimob]

***Edit: Forgive my previous post here, as I was trying to bait another argument. I will try to refrain from thinly veiled attempts at hijacking threads again.

Edited July 7, 2014 by cltbwimob

[ChessieCat]

^ we are kinda off topic but....

lots of Amtrak routes are slower than driving or a bus. Most of the long distance network is simply an offering to the political gods to keep public support for the system. However, there are quite a few short-distance Amtrak routes which are faster than driving or flying when comparing downtown to downtown trip times. Some of these routes include:

CLT to Greensboro, Durham or Raleigh: (the train is faster than driving in most traffic conditions)

Wasington-New York (via Baltimore, Philadelphia and Wilmington)

Los Angeles-San Diego

Los Angeles-Santa Barbara

Oakland-Sacramento

Portland-Seattle

Milwaukee-Chicago

Chicago-Detroit

Chicago-St. Louis (well, this is waiting on some track work to be completed)

Richmond-DC

Boston-Portland ME (in most traffic conditions)

Philadelphia-Harrisburg

New York-Albany

There are probably a few other corridors as well.

Amtrak certainly isn't competitive in every market (especially Denver), but in specific corridors (all less than 300 miles) it is the fastest option.

I am NOT lost thankfully when you mention the above Amtrak routes.  

 

I am an Aviation buff and even the casual observer has noticed that in a post-9/11 security environment, taking the ACELA from NYC to Washington is more convenient than flying.  No security checks, no extra bag fees, plus you can do work for the entirety of the journey.

 

You can see the affect at the LaGuardia Marine Terminal where Delta had downgraded to regional jets for routes like LGA-DCA rather than A319's.  My response is kinda off-topic but kudos to kermit and mallguy for making some excellent posts in this forum.

[kermit]

on a lighter note, this is a pretty fantastic (if not real safe) example of the creative use of streetcar tracks:

http://vimeo.com/86508660

My hat is off to the first* UPer to ride a pallet down Elizabeth ave without injury

*neither kermit nor UP condone stupidity

Edited July 8, 2014 by kermit

[rugger62]

Trying to get this thread back on track, what do y'all think about the need to develop cross-corridor connectors in Charlotte? trying to get across southeast Charlotte is a bear. I feel like we are going to need a high capacity option sooner than later.

 

On an unrelated note, when are we going to get some reflective paint for street lines? Driving in the rain, esp at night, I feel like I'm pointing the car, hope to stay in my lane, and hope that the traffic can manage the same.

[Urbanity]

What do y'all think about the need to develop cross-corridor connectors in Charlotte? trying to get across southeast Charlotte is a bear. I feel like we are going to need a high capacity option sooner than later.

I feel the same for North Charlotte between UNC Charlotte and Northlake.   I always thought the WT Harris corridor from North Lake to Independence has the potential of being a great line - though I would also love it go the whole length of WT Harris to Independence with the Central Ave Streetcar extended to there.  I would also love to have seen a connecting Commuter Rail (Red Line) stop near North Lake as well.

 

Obviously the priorities with the very limited pool of money is finishing the BLE, building the Streetcar (at least from JCSU area to Plaza Midwood) and answering the East question (Rapid Bus down Independence, Streetcar down Monroe, etc) and these are just dreams - but at some point in the future (20, 30 years?) the East-West gaps are going to have to be addressed.

[carolinagarnet]

Several larger cities laid out like Charlotte seem to be embracing the idea of light rail/subway/streetcar ring lines. Without connections between individual lines outside of the downtown, you end up creating huge choke points that slow service across the board. DC is a prime example of this (Gallery Place, Metro Center, L'Enfant Plaza). This is harder to do in a multi-modal system, but Denver seems to be moving in that direction. I know we've talking about a Ballantyne blue line spur and while I think that's a fantastic idea, it would like need to be connected in some way to other transit forms before reaching the city so those needing to go to say Presbyterian Hospital could transfer before hitting 7th Street station. Of course this is all a pipe dream...

Edited July 8, 2014 by carolinagarnet

[ChessieCat]

Several larger cities laid out like Charlotte seem to be embracing the idea of light rail/subway/streetcar ring lines. Without connections between individual lines outside of the downtown, you end up creating huge choke points that slow service across the board. DC is a prime example of this (Gallery Place, Metro Center, L'Enfant Plaza). This is harder to do in a multi-modal system, but Denver seems to be moving in that direction. I know we've talking about a Ballantyne blue line spur and while I think that's a fantastic idea, it would like need to be connected in some way to other transit forms before reaching the city so those needing to go to say Presbyterian Hospital could transfer before hitting 7th Street station. Of course this is all a pipe dream...

 

Indeed, Maryland is making progress on the Purple Line which will connect with at least 4 different lines within the Beltway.  But it has taken decades for this to get going, along with a Metro extension to Dulles airport.  It's not a pipe dream, but it will take a few decades of higher population density to get a ring line & airport connection in Charlotte unfortunately...

Edited July 8, 2014 by ChessieCat

[tozmervo]

Circumfrence/Cross-town connections seem to be features of very mature (and heavily used) transit systems. CATS' crosstown bus routes tend to be the worst performing in the system by a good margin, despite connecting their outlying bus terminals at Eastland, South Park and Beatties Ford. I'm curious to know how their new Route 51 is doing, connecting Pineville and Matthews. Not saying it isn't a goal, but the hill is steep. The typical radial routes are definitely where they can make the biggest difference at this point in Charlotte's transit development. 

 

^ Edit: What ChessieCat said.

Edited July 8, 2014 by tozmervo

[kermit]

CATS disappointment #342:

 

I heard through a complicated grapevine (so I could be wrong) that CATS has real-time GPS location data on all their vehicles and they were recently offered an opportunity to create ios and android apps to display the data to the public nearly free of charge. Unfortunately CATS turned down the offer. The explanation I heard was they are waiting to build an advertising-supported app (I don't know if this is currently underway or not).

 

I don't want to begrudge CATS any revenue they can get, but a real-time app is _desperately_ needed. In the age of Urber and Lyft delaying this app is a huge mistake.

[Urbanity]

CATS disappointment #342:

 

I heard through a complicated grapevine (so I could be wrong) that CATS has real-time GPS location data on all their vehicles and they were recently offered an opportunity to create ios and android apps to display the data to the public nearly free of charge. Unfortunately CATS turned down the offer. The explanation I heard was they are waiting to build an advertising-supported app (I don't know if this is currently underway or not).

 

I don't want to begrudge CATS any revenue they can get, but a real-time app is _desperately_ needed. In the age of Urber and Lyft delaying this app is a huge mistake.

 

If that is true it is more than disappointing - it is infuriating.  

 

Edit - in other news - Looks like Charlotte is finally going to get articulated buses 

Edited July 16, 2014 by Urbanity

[southslider]

The last version of the bill I saw, however, restricted articulated buses to streets with speed limits of 45 mph or higher. Ironically, the current Charlotte mayor helped the prohibition pass as a tactic to prevent BRT on Independence. But now, the vehicles are needed on bus routes, where 10-minute service is overcrowded, like Tryon and Central. The former corridor will be fixed by BLE, but the latter could use buses well before Phase 3, 4 or whatever of Gold Line finally reaches Eastland. Back to the original point, if there is a speed restriction still in the latest bill, then the high-ridership routes on slower, more pedestrian-friendly streets may still face a legal hurdle.

[dubone]

They could do double decker buses instead.  

 

It isn't the end of the world to just have very very high frequency on these select routes.   They could also divide the route up a bit, so that the area is served by semi-redundant routes.  Or have an additional route that just goes to Eastland and back and reduces the capacity pressure on the 9, 17, and 39 that go all the way out to the suburbs.   More frequency, but more limited length.  

 

Another short loop route like 4 is out to Eastway or Eastland would probably solve some of that.  

 

If the state wants to play games to limit cost-savings, then just run two buses with two employees.  More jobs result, and yes higher costs, but it is due to the success of a line, so it better-spent transit money than for routes that have low ridership.

[km1789]

I put together these two system coverage maps for Center City for 2017 (currently under construction) and for 2019 (streetcar phase two (fingers crossed))

 

The black dashed lines are the 1/4 mile or 5 minute walk radius from each station. I included the B-cycle stations for reference but not their radii.

Edited July 28, 2014 by km1789

[orulz]

Awesome map, thanks. Something that I never really noticed before is that the south end light rail stations are about the same distance apart as the streetcar stations. The only gap is Alpha Mill. Was there ever any talk of a station there?

[kermit]

^ engineering the underpass at 277 and the overpass of CSX has prevented station placement in the Alpha Mill area (hat tip to Southsider for this news a while back)

[dubone]

Right, it was included in early plans as an option but they opted for 16th Street, which then moved to Parkwood.  It is not a significant loss, as Alpha Mill itself is within the radius for the station between 9th and 10th (so only 2-3 blocks away).  

[Bikeguy]

plus there's the parallel extension of the bike/ped path which the Alpha Mill residents can use .   correct??

[southslider]

^BLE will have side paths between 7th and 12th Streets. North of 12th, the City has planned a connector to the Cross Charlotte Trail that would be built separately.

[Vivir Mi Vida]

Pappas Properties begins pitching Scaleybark Station to office tenants

Hey guys look like the ScaleyBark Station is getting in groove back. What they have planned for the site and definitively a game changer. Got my vote

 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/real_estate/2014/07/pappas-properties-begins-pitching-scaleybark.html