CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[ah59396]

Pappas Properties begins pitching Scaleybark Station to office tenants

Hey guys look like the ScaleyBark Station is getting in groove back. What they have planned for the site and definitively a game changer. Got my vote

 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/real_estate/2014/07/pappas-properties-begins-pitching-scaleybark.html

 

 

This topic has already been discussed in it's respective thread "Scaleybark Staion Area Projects".  

 

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/52026-scaleybark-station-area-projects/

[kermit]

add this to my wishlist for the airport line (in town, transit oriented, airport baggage check). It will work really nicely in combination with Gateway station and the SEHSR.

 

http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2014/08/every-city-needs-hong-kongs-brilliant-baggage-check-system/378826/

 

Both will start construction next year, right? /sarcasm/

 

While I understand that all of these things (in town baggage check, an airport transit line, Gateway station and SEHSR) are currently unrealistic, I think we are wasting our time by not planning for a fully integrated transportation network. Not just a transit system which is isolated from the airport which is isolated from intercity rail, which is isolated from the greenway network.....

Edited August 24, 2014 by kermit

[ChessieCat]

add this to my wishlist for the airport line (in town, transit oriented, airport baggage check). It will work really nicely in combination with Gateway station and the SEHSR.

 

http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2014/08/every-city-needs-hong-kongs-brilliant-baggage-check-system/378826/

 

Both will start construction next year, right? /sarcasm/

 

While I understand that all of these things (in town baggage check, an airport transit line, Gateway station and SEHSR) are currently unrealistic, I think we are wasting our time by not planning for a fully integrated transportation network. Not just a transit system which is isolated from the airport which is isolated from intercity rail, which is isolated from the greenway network.....

 

The reason Hong Kong can do this is that their railway gets to develop the property above every underground station they build using Value Capture. Charlotte is trying something similar for the Red Line, i.e. Tax-Increment Financing (TIF) and creating a Special Assessment District but as we can see neither that commuter rail line nor Gateway is happening anytime soon despite these enticements...

Edited August 27, 2014 by ChessieCat

[New Name]

What do you give the odds that someday (someday could be 25 years) Pineville will want an extension of the LYNX into town....

[Third Strike]

Extending the Blue Line further down into Pineville seems like the most logical decision in the far future. However, rather then extending the line into Pineville's downtown, I would rather see it follow I-485 towards Carolina Place Mall and Ballantyne.

[Matthew.Brendan]

Absolutely needs a branch into Ballantyne, the sooner the better. Express route to Uptown is obvious. What's the average drive time at various times throughout the day from Btyne <-> Uptown? At absolute best maybe 25 mins? Bad traffic, double that? What could an express train make that same trip in (hypothetically)?

[kermit]

Extending the Blue Line further down into Pineville seems like the most logical decision in the far future. However, rather then extending the line into Pineville's downtown, I would rather see it follow I-485 towards Carolina Place Mall and Ballantyne.

 

I'll wager that Carolina Place will be a dead mall within 15 years (Sears won't last long, and its closing will bring down the remaining dominos). I'll guess that its 1 in 4 that Btyne will be struggling, shirking and decaying (rather than growing) by 2030, I don't think we can build transit there soon enough to save it.

Edited August 29, 2014 by kermit

[teeg]

What do you give the odds that someday (someday could be 25 years) Pineville will want an extension of the LYNX into town....

 

Hopefully we will all still be around to remind Pineville that when they had their chance, and they said NO.  

[R.Talbott]

I'll wager that Carolina Place will be a dead mall within 15 years (Sears won't last long, and its closing will bring down the remaining dominos). I'll guess that its 1 in 4 that Btyne will be struggling, shirking and decaying (rather than growing) by 2030, I don't think we can build transit there soon enough to save it.

 

I'd wager that none of this happens, except for Sears closing.

Edited August 29, 2014 by R.Talbott

[Third Strike]

Well now, this is interesting. Looks like the city is seeking a professional firm to help design a plan for the LYNX Silver Line. Here's a giant PDF on what the city wants in the analysis plan:

 

http://000417b6df56f4ae5bbf-f6bd2cfeac0f4625637eac684e9e6a05.r25.cf1.rackcdn.com/12/9af789c846311d7f465358392cc6d08f.pdf?id=255556

 

The study identifies US 74, Monroe Road, Central Ave, and the CSX railway as potential corridors that future mass transit can exist in.

[LKN704]

I was thinking the other day that if the Silver Line was built as LRT, it would almost have to be a subway between CTC/Arena and CPCC/Central stations.

[southslider]

^Nah, just run Silver Line along Gold Line between Charlottetowne and the Arena and convert those blocks of Elizabeth and Trade into a transit mall.

[kermit]

Mary Newsome at Plan Charlotte has a nice discussion on the transit tax, and the fact that things may change soon. (according to Mary the General Assembly almost took away our tax)

 

http://plancharlotte.org/story/charlotte-mecklenburg-lack-light-rail-transit-funding

[ah59396]

I am sadly confident Charlotte will have the Blue Line and no more than 2.5 miles of streetcar by 2030. Especially if the Raleigh Durham Cary light rail requires funding as well.

[HopHead]

I'm hopeful that we can actually get some private funding for transportation needs in the future. Especially if we were to get the light rail/street car line to the airport from uptown. I don't think we can forever rely on subsidies or taxes, especially as other cities in the state grow and have transportation needs like the Triangle. 

[Nolan]

NCDOT changed their funding formula and project prioritization based on need and competitiveness, wouldn't that mean transit projects will now have to compete with each other too? How competitive do you think the Silver Line will be versus any potential lines in Triangle area? 

Edited September 11, 2014 by Nolan

[dubone]

The starter streetcar will be fare-free.  So the 5-extra minute factor would not apply.  If you see a streetcar coming, you hop on, and ride it.  

[dubone]

Well now, this is interesting. Looks like the city is seeking a professional firm to help design a plan for the LYNX Silver Line. Here's a giant PDF on what the city wants in the analysis plan:

 

http://000417b6df56f4ae5bbf-f6bd2cfeac0f4625637eac684e9e6a05.r25.cf1.rackcdn.com/12/9af789c846311d7f465358392cc6d08f.pdf?id=255556

 

The study identifies US 74, Monroe Road, Central Ave, and the CSX railway as potential corridors that future mass transit can exist in.

 

I just hope that whatever is determine can settle and become the consensus.  I know the ULI proposal for Monroe streetcar seemed to go virtually no where.  The only thing was that they finally agreed to give up the dedicate transitway in the median of Independence sort of.  

 

I still think CSX would be ideal.  It will be money to build out the tracks along that corridor far enough from the freight, but it would still be better because of what that corridor goes near within town, and then farther out will be speedier.   It would be also good if the project built bridge crossings for streets over the railway at Central and at Sharon Amity.  

 

Streetcar seems to be a non-starter outside of a 2-3 miles of Trade and Tryon, so I think they should just plan a legitimate light rail line on whatever is the most ideal corridor in the SouthEast (which will have the highest ridership of any 'next' line) and just do it right.  The BRT on 74 is pretty much just going to happen naturally and free by having the HOT lanes which are usable by buses.  Obviously it won't serve stations ON 74, but that was always an absurd idea and has clearly lost to the planning of just making it an expressway.  

[LKN704]

Once the Blue Line extension is built, and the second phase of the streetcar is underway, CATS really needs to focus all effort into the Silver Line. As others have said, it is really the only corridor left that has a decent potential, and I think the line has the potential to generate a ridership level similar to that of the South corridor.

 

I personally consider the Red Line and the West Corridor dead at this point...

[southslider]

Following a new alternatives analysis, the Silver Line could soon join the Red Line, as having a rail corridor identified, but no money to build it.

Meanwhile, 74 East and 77 North are the most cost-effective corridors for BRT, thanks to HOT lanes already committed to open in the near-future. 74 East can even branch at Albemarle Rd to serve both Eastland and Matthews. Light rail, on the other hand, would likely bypass Eastland for Matthews, given their political clout.

Edited September 11, 2014 by southslider

[New Name]

^And with the door open for articulated buses, it wouldn't be impossible to imagine "mass"-transit BRT (at least on Independence)

[ChessieCat]

I'm hopeful that we can actually get some private funding for transportation needs in the future. Especially if we were to get the light rail/street car line to the airport from uptown. I don't think we can forever rely on subsidies or taxes, especially as other cities in the state grow and have transportation needs like the Triangle. 

 

 

I am sadly confident Charlotte will have the Blue Line and no more than 2.5 miles of streetcar by 2030. Especially if the Raleigh Durham Cary light rail requires funding as well.

 

Y'all bring up good points. The only way you can attract private funding around a new line is by allocating property around the stations to developers in exchange for financing and Value Capture (any increase in property value accrues to the developer taking the risk).

 

The Silver Line is a non-starter for that, obviously.  Who can build a condo complex around a station in the middle of Independence?

 

The abandoned rail corridors (Red Line and P&N) are about the only option where vacant land around stations could be offered to developers in exchange for financing.  But that brings up the question of ridership which at present doesn't exist to support the hundreds of millions of dollars required to develop those lines.  

 

The ACWR's line out to Mint Hill could be a candidate if NoDa booms as expected after the BLE is finished.  Development could follow the line eastward. 

 

It's all a pipe dream right now unfortunately...

Edited September 11, 2014 by ChessieCat

[kermit]

Technically the red line is not abandoned (sorry about the nitpick).

 

The ACWR really is intriquing. It reminds me a great deal of the Nashville and Eastern RR which was eager to accept $$$ to upgrade tracks for the Music City Star. I get the feeling the ACWR would really appreciate some upgrade money and additional revenue for allowing a significant amount of commuter rail on its tracks between Locust and NoDa.

 

Sadly there are very few traffic generators out that way and the region may have the best roads (in terms of excess capacity) in the metro.

[dubone]

It's not a pipe dream, it is basical urban infrastructure required for a city that is growing as fast as Charlotte in order to be livable after another decade or two of fast growth.   By 2030 we will absolutely have additional lines.   We do have the revenue stream, which will go through at least 2 business cycles that will include some boom times by 2030.  We will also have more growth both statewide and in the city which often brings people who are more open to good transit policy.  We will also have continued growth and wealth of millennial-generation which prefer urban environments to suburban overall.  We will also have continued growth along the patterns that have already started, densifying NoDa, Midwood, Elizabeth, FreeMore/Wesley Heights, SouthEnd and likely even more urban density in SouthPark and other areas.    

 

Transit is an inevitability because it is a very practical core of urban and denser development patterns.  

 

If you are in a church or a club with 1500 members and the average income is $30k, and they want to pool their dues to build a new facility for $1m, so that they can grow the club or church to 3000 members, it is easily affordable.  Especially if they want to build it over 4 years.  The gross annual income of the collective is $45m and over 4 years is $180m, so the cost of the new facility is only 0.5% of the club's income.  It is a no-brainer. 

 

x1000 for Charlotte numbers.   1.5m people, $30k average income, for a $1b project that is vital to helping the city move to 3m people more comfortably.  

 

Charlotte can easily afford basic transit infrastructure just like it could afford to build streets and roads and freeways all over the place.   It is just a matter of having leadership that makes proper plans for the expected growth of the city. 

[Third Strike]

Y'all bring up good points. The only way you can attract private funding around a new line is by allocating property around the stations to developers in exchange for financing and Value Capture (any increase in property value accrues to the developer taking the risk).

 

The Silver Line is a non-starter for that, obviously.  Who can build a condo complex around a station in the middle of Independence?

 

The abandoned rail corridors (Red Line and P&N) are about the only option where vacant land around stations could be offered to developers in exchange for financing.  But that brings up the question of ridership which at present doesn't exist to support the hundreds of millions of dollars required to develop those lines.  

 

The ACWR's line out to Mint Hill could be a candidate if NoDa booms as expected after the BLE is finished.  Development could follow the line eastward. 

 

It's all a pipe dream right now unfortunately...

 

The ACWR line could serve as a decent commuter to the towns east of Charlotte. It doesn't run through Albemarle, but it is only a few miles south of it (shuttle buses could be used). However, because of the lack of population density, and a declining one at that, a commuter line in that direction would probably not be feasible for some time. However, one exciting aspect of that corridor is the potential of high speed rail from Charlotte to Raleigh. Even the NCDOT has thought about it as an alternative, or even an additional line, to the NCRR corridor: