CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[cjd5050]

Just my personal take but I think the hub and spoke option is a major cause.  

To get from the corner of Central and Eastway to the corner of E. Woodlawn and Park takes at least 50 minutes and requires a transfer Uptown.  To drive takes 20 minutes.  

Wouldn't a line from NoDa via Eastway/Runnymede/E. Woodlawn to South Blvd make sense?  Maybe they will do this when they open the Blue Line extension as it would create a loop of Woodlawn Station > Madison Park > Myers Park > Echo Hills > Plaza-Shamrock > NoDa > 36th Street Station.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Just my personal take but I think the hub and spoke option is a major cause.  

To get from the corner of Central and Eastway to the corner of E. Woodlawn and Park takes at least 50 minutes and requires a transfer Uptown.  To drive takes 20 minutes.  

Wouldn't a line from NoDa via Eastway/Runnymede/E. Woodlawn to South Blvd make sense?  Maybe they will do this when they open the Blue Line extension as it would create a loop of Woodlawn Station > Madison Park > Myers Park > Echo Hills > Plaza-Shamrock > NoDa > 36th Street Station.

Nail on the head.

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, cjd5050 said:

Just my personal take but I think the hub and spoke option is a major cause.  

To get from the corner of Central and Eastway to the corner of E. Woodlawn and Park takes at least 50 minutes and requires a transfer Uptown.  To drive takes 20 minutes.  

Wouldn't a line from NoDa via Eastway/Runnymede/E. Woodlawn to South Blvd make sense?  Maybe they will do this when they open the Blue Line extension as it would create a loop of Woodlawn Station > Madison Park > Myers Park > Echo Hills > Plaza-Shamrock > NoDa > 36th Street Station.

Route 30 used to do almost this, though it went to the Eastland Transit Center instead of Eastway/Central. The ridership was so bad that it now ends at South Park Mall instead.

Having said that, I think the "crosstown" routes - and attempts at implementing them - have greatly suffered because their headways are SO BAD, often 60 minutes apart.

[DMann]

Wasn't that the # 39?  The # 30 goes from SPM to Wilkinson Blvd by Walmart.

[tozmervo]

13 minutes ago, DMann said:

Wasn't that the # 39?  The # 30 goes from SPM to Wilkinson Blvd by Walmart.

Maybe I'm thinking of the #60, which went (goes?) down tyvola. Either way, crosstown routes have a poor record

[cjd5050]

23 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

Route 30 used to do almost this, though it went to the Eastland Transit Center instead of Eastway/Central. The ridership was so bad that it now ends at South Park Mall instead.

Having said that, I think the "crosstown" routes - and attempts at implementing them - have greatly suffered because their headways are SO BAD, often 60 minutes apart.

Don't really know anything about the bus network outside of what Google Maps tells me.   How long ago was this route in place?  

[SgtCampsalot]

There have been many studies done on how to make more riders opt for buses, as well as how to make them "cool/nice" and whatnot. The general consensus is that the one and only way to do so is to have frequent, reliable service. Having smart routes is a close second. The people that want buses to be more cool are the people who probably wouldn't ride a bus anyway.

Edited February 24, 2017 by SgtCampsalot

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, cjd5050 said:

Don't really know anything about the bus network outside of what Google Maps tells me.   How long ago was this route in place?  

the original route that went all the way to eastland transit center? maybe a couple of years ago, don't recall. google maps won't reveal those routes if they're not the fastest ways to go, and at the crazy long headways that's almost always the case.

[cjd5050]

20 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

the original route that went all the way to eastland transit center? maybe a couple of years ago, don't recall. google maps won't reveal those routes if they're not the fastest ways to go, and at the crazy long headways that's almost always the case.

Got it.  thanks.  

 

[ChessieCat]

21 hours ago, JBS said:

Depends on traffic (unlike the bus, which will always be slower).  I've never ridden the Airport Sprinter but those I know who do swear by it.  Not having to pay for parking is a bonus and I suspect the riffraff quotient is lower if riders are exclusively riding to the airport...

I've taken the Sprinter and the Archdale connector express bus to the airport.  Never had a problem on the Sprinter.  The Archdale connector is full of hardworking folks who have a job at CLT.  I'm sure a ton of millenials would take LRT to the airport even if it does make 5+ stops on the way there.    

[elrodvt]

1 hour ago, SgtCampsalot said:

There have been many studies done on how to make more riders opt for buses, as well as how to make them "cool/nice" and whatnot. The general consensus is that the one and only way to do so is to have frequent, reliable service. Having smart routes is a close second. The people that want buses to be more cool are the people who probably wouldn't ride a bus anyway.

Yeah, I tend to think WiFi and nice seats would go a long way but you're probably right that it's not worth it to cater to someone who rides 1 or 2 times a month at most!

[deleted]

21 hours ago, elrodvt said:

Riffratt ? Hmmm. I've never had issues on the bus. You've run into a lot of riffraff?

I think I offended myself when I used that term...what an elitist jerk!  That said, aside from a poor word choice, I've been subjected to some pretty awful behavior on some public transportation routes.  When riding a bus in the Philadelphia area as a high school sophomore, I had a guy spewing profanity and threats at me for the duration of the ride and the driver did nothing to stop him.  I had some problems riding the bus in San Diego also.  I could be more specific in Charlotte but I would like to avoid sounding more like a jackass.  I like people of all races and backgrounds, regardless of occupation, gender, etc.  That said, on occasion but not often, I have felt threatened on public transit (more so on some routes than others).  

[SgtCampsalot]

4 minutes ago, JBS said:

I think I offended myself when I used that term...what an elitist jerk!  That said, aside from a poor word choice, I've been subjected to some pretty awful behavior on some public transportation routes.  When riding a bus in the Philadelphia area as a high school sophomore, I had a guy spewing profanity and threats at me for the duration of the ride and the driver did nothing to stop him.  I had some problems riding the bus in San Diego also.  I could be more specific in Charlotte but I would like to avoid sounding more like a jackass.  I like people of all races and backgrounds, regardless of occupation, gender, etc.  That said, on occasion but not often, I have felt threatened on public transit (more so on some routes than others).  

It's true. Some routes more than others. N Tryon St had some pretty rough peeps on there when I would ride to UNCC.

[elrodvt]

1 hour ago, JBS said:

I think I offended myself when I used that term...what an elitist jerk!  That said, aside from a poor word choice, I've been subjected to some pretty awful behavior on some public transportation routes.  When riding a bus in the Philadelphia area as a high school sophomore, I had a guy spewing profanity and threats at me for the duration of the ride and the driver did nothing to stop him.  I had some problems riding the bus in San Diego also.  I could be more specific in Charlotte but I would like to avoid sounding more like a jackass.  I like people of all races and backgrounds, regardless of occupation, gender, etc.  That said, on occasion but not often, I have felt threatened on public transit (more so on some routes than others).  

I'm sure. It was just too easy a target to let pass. ;-)

I'll just say the routes I've taken have had no issues at all. I can't say the same for when I used to ride through ghetto areas of Richmond to get to the Plasma bank in order to fund my Schlitz needs. Oh the crazy things you do as a 18 y/o.

[Spartan]

On 2/20/2017 at 9:15 PM, Nick2 said:

The biggest thing they should push for is to get the silver line or some other LRT out to the airport. That's crucial for the city to grow and develop properly.

Selfishly, I would love to see a rail connection to the airport, but I think that a connection to Matthews or North Meck is more important right now. 

 

On 2/22/2017 at 6:18 AM, southslider said:

DMU works great for commuter rail. Only problem is Norfolk Southern. Maybe Cheeto's bigly deals and yuge love for infrastructure will salvage a commuter rail project by private investors enriching NSRR. 

Agreed. Building commuter rail on a new alignment doesn't seem like it would make financial sense.

 

On 2/24/2017 at 9:40 AM, kermit said:

^ a portion of the decline in bus ridership (which has been happening throughout the US) is likely due to the gentrification / poverty declines of the center city. As the poor get pushed out of dense intown areas that are well served by transit the new residents are generally affluent enough to drive rather than wait on the bus. 

you can see the effects of this pretty clearly on the west side gold rush ridership.

There aren't thousands of people that are getting pushed out because gentrification. Not enough to explain the drop in ridership. I don't think it's that complicated... I think it comes down to cheap gas and availability of Uber/Lyft. 

I do think there is a stigma to bus ridership, but until people are charged to drive (ie: tolls) and park everywhere they go, they will continue to make excuses to drive. Congestion may factor in somewhat, but until its too congested and too expensive to drive/park, the bus won't come a serious alternative for choice riders.

 

[Nick2]

12 hours ago, Spartan said:

Selfishly, I would love to see a rail connection to the airport, but I think that a connection to Matthews or North Meck is more important right now. 

I would have to disagree. I do think it's very important to have that North Meck line and the one to mathews but having a rail transit from the airport to uptown should be the main priority in my opinion. Especially for a city of our size with an airport as busy as ours is.

[Spartan]

I think CATS is in a tough position. The entire county voted for the sales tax, so there is an expectation for rapid transit service to extend out to the outlying areas.

 

[Bikeguy]

I cannot for the life of me believe that we have exhausted every single,possible avenue towards convincing N/S to cooperate with a line to Mooresville.   

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

I cannot for the life of me believe that we have exhausted every single,possible avenue towards convincing N/S to cooperate with a line to Mooresville.   

If CATS thinks it has  exhausted the possibilities they are only thinking within a narrow price range. As a publicly held business NS will certainly provide access to their ROW for the "right" price -- but its entirely possible that the price may be beyond the budgets of CATS and the MTC.

I am in no way defending the decisions of NS but I suspect that CATS initial planing for the red line started from the assumption that the O-line was lightly used and near abandonment. While there is plenty of evidence to support that assumption (the very small number of carloads per week between Atando and Mooresville. The complete neglect of maintenance of the line North of Barber Junction, etc.) its now clear that NS does not feel the same way. I believe that NS desires to use the O-Line as leverage for their next NCRR lease (but as land owners their reasons are irrelevant). NS will almost certainly* allow high-density commuter rail on its tracks if CATS pays for double tracking, positive train control, new signals etc. as well as the maintenance of all that stuff however the price tag on that will be well above $500 million.

 

*The BNSF METRA line in Chicago has over 90 METRA trains per day running at 70 mph on a _very_ heavily used freight route. There is no operational reason that freight and commuter rail can't coexist, but its expensive. 

[CLT2014]

3 hours ago, Nick2 said:

I would have to disagree. I do think it's very important to have that North Meck line and the one to mathews but having a rail transit from the airport to uptown should be the main priority in my opinion. Especially for a city of our size with an airport as busy as ours is.

Has the airport and CATS done a study to show what ridership on a light rail line would be between Uptown and the airport? There are about 20,000 people that begin and end their journey at Charlotte Douglas each day (most passengers are just connecting between flights).

Let's say 70% of those 20,000 are people going to a business in Mecklenburg or living in Mecklenburg. That's 14,000 potential travelers then. Let's say half of those travelers going to a Mecklenburg destination are going to Uptown or a location accessible by rail - that's 7,000 per day. Then let's say 25% chose rail over a rental car, personal car, taxi, family member, friend, Uber, etc.... That would be 1,750 boardings per day.

 

Another way to look at it.... San Francisco Airport enjoys the highest ratio of passengers taking public transit to/ from the airport. Their ratio is 10% of travelers beginning/ending their trip in SFO and works out to 6,780 boardings per day at the airport station. 

So assuming Charlotte Douglas could match San Francisco for the highest ratio of trips on public transit (we won't), we'd be at 2,000 boardings per day..... outside of major events like the DNC or All Start game, I don't see a rail link to the airport matching commuting ridership/ neighborhood connections. Too many people going to the airport are going to far flung destinations throughout the metro. 

I believe rail to the northern suburbs to serve rush hour commuters would have far more passengers than 2,000 per day.

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by CLT2014

[kermit]

^ agree. Airport rail lines tend to have relatively poor ridership. They do have widespread political support because the airport is one of the few destinations that nearly everyone can imagine traveling to (and where they have to pay for parking). Unfortunately two or three airport trips per year by locals is not enough to justify rail.

Having said that I would like to see a CLT line (preferably with a Belmont / I-85 terminus) -- rail transit would unlock huge opportunities for development to the west. But a Matthews and N Meck line will certainly have better ROIs.

Edited February 28, 2017 by kermit

[ChessieCat]

 

4 hours ago, Nick2 said:

I would have to disagree. I do think it's very important to have that North Meck line and the one to mathews but having a rail transit from the airport to uptown should be the main priority in my opinion. Especially for a city of our size with an airport as busy as ours is.

CLT likes to compare itself to ATL and IAD, the nearest hub airports for the big 4 domestic airlines, doesn't it?

ATL is a Delta and Southwest hub and its MARTA connection is ranked #1 on the milecards.com list.  MARTA has served ATL since 1988.

IAD is a United hub and the DC Metro will open Dulles airport station in 2019.

Besides CLT, AA has hubs at ORD, DFW, LAX, MIA, JFK, LGA, PHL, and DCA.  All of these airports (except LGA) have an existing rail connection or are building one. MIA will open its station this year. LAX will have its connector complete by 2024.  LGA will always be stuck in the political wrangle betwen the Port Authority and MTA.

CLT is a top-10 domestic airport in every major category (pax traffic, aircraft movements, etc.).  Why is it the only one without a plan for rail service?

Edited February 28, 2017 by ChessieCat

[southslider]

Most cities don't add the airport to their rail system until they actually have a rail system. Charlotte is extending one line.

[Third Strike]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

If CATS thinks it has  exhausted the possibilities they are only thinking within a narrow price range. As a publicly held business NS will certainly provide access to their ROW for the "right" price -- but its entirely possible that the price may be beyond the budgets of CATS and the MTC.

I am in no way defending the decisions of NS but I suspect that CATS initial planing for the red line started from the assumption that the O-line was lightly used and near abandonment. While there is plenty of evidence to support that assumption (the very small number of carloads per week between Atando and Mooresville. The complete neglect of maintenance of the line North of Barber Junction, etc.) its now clear that NS does not feel the same way. I believe that NS desires to use the O-Line as leverage for their next NCRR lease (but as land owners their reasons are irrelevant). NS will almost certainly* allow high-density commuter rail on its tracks if CATS pays for double tracking, positive train control, new signals etc. as well as the maintenance of all that stuff however the price tag on that will be well above $500 million.

 

*The BNSF METRA line in Chicago has over 90 METRA trains per day running at 70 mph on a _very_ heavily used freight route. There is no operational reason that freight and commuter rail can't coexist, but its expensive. 

If Wikipedia is to be believed, Norfolk Southern originally had a lease with the NCRR for a century. I wonder if it's possible for such a deal to happen in this day and age. Other option is NS merges with another major rail company, since the Trump administration won't give a damn, and the O-Line is sold off to a shortline company, paving the way for commuter rail towards Mooresville.

[CLT2014]

34 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

CLT likes to compare itself to ATL and IAD, the nearest hub airports for the big 4 domestic airlines, doesn't it?

ATL is a Delta and Southwest hub and its MARTA connection is ranked #1 on the milecards.com list.  MARTA has served ATL since 1988.

IAD is a United hub and the DC Metro will open Dulles airport station in 2019.

Besides CLT, AA has hubs at ORD, DFW, LAX, MIA, JFK, LGA, PHL, and DCA.  All of these airports (except LGA) have an existing rail connection or are building one. MIA will open its station this year. LAX will have its connector complete by 2024.  LGA will always be stuck in the political wrangle betwen the Port Authority and MTA.

CLT is a top-10 domestic airport in every major category (pax traffic, aircraft movements, etc.).  Why is it the only one without a plan for rail service?

We are also a much smaller city than the other American hubs. Also - just because the other cities have spent money on a rail connection, doesn't mean it is the next wise move for Charlotte.  Eventually an airport line makes sense, but not until we build out a more extensive system to where people actually live/work/play. Currently our system is too small to make it viable for most citizens to use light rail to get to the airport. Build a good system first for locals and then connect it to the airport. In the current state of the system, an airport line will cost billions for ridership that will likely be far below the Lynx Blue Line and potential extensions along Independence or up to the lake.

We are NOT a top 10 airport in O&D traffic. Remember, rail service is for the people actually starting / ending their journey in Charlotte. Based off the current size of O&D at CLT, we would have less than 2,000 boardings per day at the airport. In Philadelphia, the Airport Line has a daily ridership of 6,800 people per day. That low ridership is in a metro area 3 times the size of Charlotte. So if Philadelphia can only get to 6,800 people... what does Charlotte airport ridership look like?

I believe at this point, the best solution for Charlotte is an airport rapid bus system with buses leaving every 15 minutes for direct travel to Uptown, South Park, Ballantyne, and University City. The Sprinter's 30 minute wait times are too long. These buses need to be 3 each way and have wifi, comfortable coach seating chairs, luggage racks, etc...

Edited February 28, 2017 by CLT2014