CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

32 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

We are NOT a top 10 airport in O&D traffic. Remember, rail service is for the people actually starting / ending their journey in Charlotte. Based off the current size of O&D at CLT, we would have less than 2,000 boardings per day at the airport. In Philadelphia, the Airport Line has a daily ridership of 6,800 people per day. That low ridership is in a metro area 3 times the size of Charlotte. So if Philadelphia can only get to 6,800 people... what does Charlotte airport ridership look like?

I don't disagree with any of your perspective but I did want to point out that the SEPTA airport line is commuter rail that only runs 2 trains per hour which holds down ridership. I really hope that CATS is running LRT every 10 minutes off peak (triple the Philadelphia frequency) by the time we have an airport line.

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

If any of these proposed lines were to be completed, would this spark the construction of Gateway Station, as well?  Even in the "Big Bang" all at once vision, I doubt any of that estimated 6 billion dollars went towards the construction of the station (at least I didn't read anything in the article about Gateway Station).   I feel like Gateway is equally important, as being the connectivity hub for everything.

[kermit]

^ I don't believe that CATS is playing much of a financial role in Gateway. I think it is mostly a City / County / State project rather than transit tax. Given the amount of land that is attached to it, my gut says it will be built during the next RE cycle (the track portion is already in engineering).

[elrodvt]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

We are also a much smaller city than the other American hubs. Also - just because the other cities have spent money on a rail connection, doesn't mean it is the next wise move for Charlotte.  Eventually an airport line makes sense, but not until we build out a more extensive system to where people actually live/work/play. Currently our system is too small to make it viable for most citizens to use light rail to get to the airport. Build a good system first for locals and then connect it to the airport. In the current state of the system, an airport line will cost billions for ridership that will likely be far below the Lynx Blue Line and potential extensions along Independence or up to the lake.

We are NOT a top 10 airport in O&D traffic. Remember, rail service is for the people actually starting / ending their journey in Charlotte. Based off the current size of O&D at CLT, we would have less than 2,000 boardings per day at the airport. In Philadelphia, the Airport Line has a daily ridership of 6,800 people per day. That low ridership is in a metro area 3 times the size of Charlotte. So if Philadelphia can only get to 6,800 people... what does Charlotte airport ridership look like?

I believe at this point, the best solution for Charlotte is an airport rapid bus system with buses leaving every 15 minutes for direct travel to Uptown, South Park, Ballantyne, and University City. The Sprinter's 30 minute wait times are too long. These buses need to be 3 each way and have wifi, comfortable coach seating chairs, luggage racks, etc...

This! And many of these people are business travelers on expense account. They'll take a taxi unless it is a LOT slower. Especially those who aren't from a major city.

[Nick2]

Well, after seeing those numbers presented like that, I'd agree that it would make more sense to put rail where it could be better utilized. 

[LKN704]

How is Denver's new East Rail Line/A Line to the airport doing? I only ask because our metro sizes are relatively similar.

It's hard to compare however, seeing DEN is further away from Downtown Denver than CLT is to Uptown. That, and the A Line is full fledged commuter rail. That said, it was built in a relatively short time as part of FasTracks, so it's worth taking a look at.

[elrodvt]

1 minute ago, LKN704 said:

How is Denver's new East Rail Line/A Line to the airport doing? I only ask because our metro sizes are relatively similar.

It's hard to compare however, seeing DEN is further away from Downtown Denver than CLT is to Uptown. That, and the A Line is full fledged commuter rail. That said, it was built in a relatively short time as part of FasTracks, so it's worth taking a look at.

I take it and like it. I'm not sure I would if on expense account and not knowledgeable of the city though. Denver has a lot of tourism compared to Charlotte and those people are more likely to use it from what I've seen.

Also, as you point out, the distance is a LOT further and the traffic can be pretty bad.

So I don't think it's a great comparison.

[LKN704]

2 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

I take it and like it. I'm not sure I would if on expense account and not knowledgeable of the city though. Denver has a lot of tourism compared to Charlotte and those people are more likely to use it from what I've seen.

Also, as you point out, the distance is a LOT further and the traffic can be pretty bad.

So I don't think it's a great comparison.

I find it awesome that they spend the extra money to electrify the line rather than simply use diesel locomotives.

Isn't the line relatively rural as well?

[elrodvt]

It's pretty rural at first but there are some pretty big park and rides.

Fastracks is pretty awesome - other than the Boulder issue which mirrors North Meck in many ways. They were adding some nice new busses to use the new toll lanes up 36 to Boulder but I doubt that's mollified the more vocal folks. There must be a lot to learn from how they've handled things. I hear about the junkets by Charlotte to learn from other cities but somehow never hear how that's concretely affected our plans? 

[ChessieCat]

8 hours ago, southslider said:

Most cities don't add the airport to their rail system until they actually have a rail system. Charlotte is extending one line.

All I said is that CLT should plan for one day connecting to the city's rail system.  Do you want to see CLT end up like LAX or MIA who were decades too late in their transit planning and now have to settle for two-seat rides linking their airports to the city center?   Despite the recent road access improvements, have you witnessed the cluster at CLT when everyone is trying to get an Uber or taxi on a busy day?  The poor Sprinter bus has no dedicated lane until its arrived at the terminal.

8 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

We are also a much smaller city than the other American hubs. Also - just because the other cities have spent money on a rail connection, doesn't mean it is the next wise move for Charlotte.  Eventually an airport line makes sense, but not until we build out a more extensive system to where people actually live/work/play. Currently our system is too small to make it viable for most citizens to use light rail to get to the airport. Build a good system first for locals and then connect it to the airport. In the current state of the system, an airport line will cost billions for ridership that will likely be far below the Lynx Blue Line and potential extensions along Independence or up to the lake.

We are NOT a top 10 airport in O&D traffic. Remember, rail service is for the people actually starting / ending their journey in Charlotte. Based off the current size of O&D at CLT, we would have less than 2,000 boardings per day at the airport. In Philadelphia, the Airport Line has a daily ridership of 6,800 people per day. That low ridership is in a metro area 3 times the size of Charlotte. So if Philadelphia can only get to 6,800 people... what does Charlotte airport ridership look like?

I believe at this point, the best solution for Charlotte is an airport rapid bus system with buses leaving every 15 minutes for direct travel to Uptown, South Park, Ballantyne, and University City. The Sprinter's 30 minute wait times are too long. These buses need to be 3 each way and have wifi, comfortable coach seating chairs, luggage racks, etc...

PDX has a metro area similar in size to CLT yet they completed their airport rail connection in 2001.  SLC is half the size of Charlotte and yet they built theirs in 2013. Yes those cities had multiple LRT lines operating at the time but why should CLT wait for CATS when it can at least start planning ahead on its own?

Give credit to PHL and ORD for building one-seat ride rail connections in the 1980's instead of waiting around for decades and settling for inefficient two-seat ride systems like LAX and MIA. PHL's airport line may not run frequently but it's the only route in the country where the train stops at every terminal.  As kermit said if they increased frequency there would be higher ridership.

Edited March 1, 2017 by ChessieCat

[southslider]

^As much as the NC General Assembly abhors all things transit and all things Charlotte, I can't think of a faster way of seeing the Airport becoming a State-appointed Authority than encouraging an Airport-planned, and therby, Airport-funded, rail-transit project.

Edited March 2, 2017 by southslider

[kermit]

^ Very true

[CLT2014]

7 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

All I said is that CLT should plan for one day connecting to the city's rail system.  Do you want to see CLT end up like LAX or MIA who were decades too late in their transit planning and now have to settle for two-seat rides linking their airports to the city center?   Despite the recent road access improvements, have you witnessed the cluster at CLT when everyone is trying to get an Uber or taxi on a busy day?  The poor Sprinter bus has no dedicated lane until its arrived at the terminal.

PDX has a metro area similar in size to CLT yet they completed their airport rail connection in 2001.  SLC is half the size of Charlotte and yet they built theirs in 2013. Yes those cities had multiple LRT lines operating at the time but why should CLT wait for CATS when it can at least start planning ahead on its own?

Give credit to PHL and ORD for building one-seat ride rail connections in the 1980's instead of waiting around for decades and settling for inefficient two-seat ride systems like LAX and MIA. PHL's airport line may not run frequently but it's the only route in the country where the train stops at every terminal.  As kermit said if they increased frequency there would be higher ridership.

I agree with planning to have space set aside for a future station to avoid costly re-work. I think if they build a line to the west with the airport as just one stop among many, the airport station could be viewed as a success. If the line just ends at the airport and there are only a two or three stops in-between the airport and Uptown, ridership will likely look low and not justify the cost to taxpayers.

 If the line was built all the way out to the new River District for commuters to Uptown, had a spoke to Belmont, and maybe even wrapped down to the airport office parks with a shuttle that facilitated the last leg of the journey, the airport line could function as a commuter line for West Charlotte residents to get to work, connect to employment centers, and help some people get to the airport.  

[cjd5050]

57 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

I think if they build a line to the west with the airport as just one stop among many, the airport station could be viewed as a success. If the line just ends at the airport and there are only a two or three stops in-between the airport and Uptown, ridership will likely look low and not justify the cost to taxpayers.

 If the line was built all the way out to the new River District for commuters to Uptown, had a spoke to Belmont, and maybe even wrapped down to the airport office parks with a shuttle that facilitated the last leg of the journey, the airport line could function as a commuter line for West Charlotte residents to get to work, connect to employment centers, and help some people get to the airport.  

 

Good point.  I think the redevelopment opportunity along the line before it gets to the airport might just be enough reason to justify it...if you're looking at it as an infrastructure investment with a 20 year payoff.  That's even before you consider the River District.  

Also, one thing I picked up from some comments by Vi Lyles is how some on the city are looking at it.  She phrased the silver line as going down Independence and the airport line as going to West Charlotte IIRC.  That's much different language than saying a Matthews line or Airport line.  She also didn't seem to mention the Red Line up north.  Which is interesting but not unexpected as she is despised up north for her vote on the tolls.  I think the City of Charlotte is going to look at this from a connectivity job inside of the city and thus might put the West Corridor over the Red Line...regardless of ridership numbers for CLT.

 

[CLT2014]

17 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

ATL is a Delta and Southwest hub and its MARTA connection is ranked #1 on the milecards.com list.  MARTA has served ATL since 1988.

 

This is interesting regarding MARTA. Homeless are using it to take the train to the airport, be out of the cold, and spend the day in the chairs before security and ask for money from travelers. A challenging situation.  

http://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/238568349-story

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

This is interesting regarding MARTA. Homeless are using it to take the train to the airport, be out of the cold, and spend the day in the chairs before security and ask for money from travelers. A challenging situation.  

http://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/238568349-story

 

 

 

I guess MARTA will never extend into Gwinnett county now.  They never joined the system for the above reason.

3 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

I agree with planning to have space set aside for a future station to avoid costly re-work. I think if they build a line to the west with the airport as just one stop among many, the airport station could be viewed as a success. If the line just ends at the airport and there are only a two or three stops in-between the airport and Uptown, ridership will likely look low and not justify the cost to taxpayers.

 If the line was built all the way out to the new River District for commuters to Uptown, had a spoke to Belmont, and maybe even wrapped down to the airport office parks with a shuttle that facilitated the last leg of the journey, the airport line could function as a commuter line for West Charlotte residents to get to work, connect to employment centers, and help some people get to the airport.  

I wonder what traffic will look like on Wilkinson once the River District is built up.  Wilkinson is already a cluster around the holiday season at the airport.  Add in commuter traffic and it will become a nightmare.  Then try building a Airport LRT in the median 20 years from now and said nightmare becomes a parking lot with no escape.

Edited March 1, 2017 by ChessieCat

[15895]

Maybe they should just make the Matthews/Airport line the same Line; The Silver line.

Everyone agrees the airport (on the surface) seems like a logical choice and also Matthews gives it the ridership. + you can tout it benefits East & West Charlotte.

Forget the red line (which I live in LKN and would die for it) but I think it would be more beneficial for a Matthews-Uptown-Airport line 

[southslider]

River District will be more accessible to West Blvd than Wilkinson Blvd. A future West Corridor CATS study should look at West Blvd as a new alternative.  And that study is looking at West as a continuation of Silver Line.

Edited March 1, 2017 by southslider

[cltbwimob]

18 minutes ago, southslider said:

River District will be more accessible to West Blvd than Wilkinson Blvd. A future West Corridor CATS study should look at West Blvd as a new alternative.  And that study is looking at West as a continuation of Silver Line.

River District could be accessed just as easily by a Wilkinson line continuing past the airport and turning Southward along 485 to enter the River District.  Such a line would capture riders from the River district, airport travelers, airport employees, and commuters from Eastern Gaston County.  Plus it would help unlock Wilkinson's potential as a destination for TOD.  West Blvd has nothing going for it in terms of TOD potential (at least from what I can tell), would not connect to the airport very well, offers no benefit to Gaston County commuters, and spans about a three mile dead done south of the airport where there is quite literally nothing and no potential to turn in to anything.  West Blvd is not appropriate for LRT.  

[southslider]

CDOT is also studying West Blvd. Perhaps, LRT would fit with a road diet. 

[Spartan]

On 2/28/2017 at 2:36 PM, Bikeguy said:

I cannot for the life of me believe that we have exhausted every single,possible avenue towards convincing N/S to cooperate with a line to Mooresville.   

I think NS said that it's ok to use the corridor if the CATS pays to double-track the entire thing. 

 

On 2/28/2017 at 3:37 PM, kermit said:

^ agree. Airport rail lines tend to have relatively poor ridership. They do have widespread political support because the airport is one of the few destinations that nearly everyone can imagine traveling to (and where they have to pay for parking). Unfortunately two or three airport trips per year by locals is not enough to justify rail.

Having said that I would like to see a CLT line (preferably with a Belmont / I-85 terminus) -- rail transit would unlock huge opportunities for development to the west. But a Matthews and N Meck line will certainly have better ROIs.

Do you have data to back this up? I'm not doubting you... just genuinely curious. My personal experience with rail transit to airports has always been on full or mostly full cars. Atlanta, I think, has had a pretty good experience with the MARTA station despite not really wanting it for fear it would cause parking revenue to drop (it didnt). But getting to ATL is much more challenging to from most of their metro area compared to the relative ease of dealing with CLT accessibility and parking...

 

On 2/28/2017 at 4:30 PM, CLT2014 said:

We are also a much smaller city than the other American hubs. Also - just because the other cities have spent money on a rail connection, doesn't mean it is the next wise move for Charlotte.  Eventually an airport line makes sense, but not until we build out a more extensive system to where people actually live/work/play. Currently our system is too small to make it viable for most citizens to use light rail to get to the airport. Build a good system first for locals and then connect it to the airport. In the current state of the system, an airport line will cost billions for ridership that will likely be far below the Lynx Blue Line and potential extensions along Independence or up to the lake.

We are NOT a top 10 airport in O&D traffic. Remember, rail service is for the people actually starting / ending their journey in Charlotte. Based off the current size of O&D at CLT, we would have less than 2,000 boardings per day at the airport. In Philadelphia, the Airport Line has a daily ridership of 6,800 people per day. That low ridership is in a metro area 3 times the size of Charlotte. So if Philadelphia can only get to 6,800 people... what does Charlotte airport ridership look like?

I believe at this point, the best solution for Charlotte is an airport rapid bus system with buses leaving every 15 minutes for direct travel to Uptown, South Park, Ballantyne, and University City. The Sprinter's 30 minute wait times are too long. These buses need to be 3 each way and have wifi, comfortable coach seating chairs, luggage racks, etc...

I think the core of the problem is 1) the airport is too close center city and 2) unless you live in a walkable place or your destination is in a walkable place (ie: uptown), it's not going to be convenient for you to get to the airport via transit. I take the Sprinter because it's easy to use from uptown, but I doubt I would take it if I lived further out just due to the time/hassle factor of getting to and transferring at CTC. It's hard to convince me to take a 45-60 minute trip to the airport via transit when I can get a friend to drop me off in 15-20 mins by car.

The River District needs to be the destination to work around, not the airport... just include the airport as part of the route.

[kermit]

3 hours ago, Spartan said:

Do you have data to back this up? I'm not doubting you... just genuinely curious. My personal experience with rail transit to airports has always been on full or mostly full cars. Atlanta, I think, has had a pretty good experience with the MARTA station despite not really wanting it for fear it would cause parking revenue to drop (it didnt). But getting to ATL is much more challenging to from most of their metro area compared to the relative ease of dealing with CLT accessibility and parking...

Alon Levy and Yonah Freemark have both written about this subject extensively in their blogs. One of them (can't remember which) did pull the data for US airport ridership, but I can't seem to be able to google that while still blearyeyed. Here is a post where Levy outlines his perespective on airport connections:

https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2014/05/28/airport-connectors/

[kermit]

Similar suburban resentment of transit funding at Sound Transit in Seattle (Pierce County is discussing removing itself from their regional transit tax). FWIW Seattle has higher growth (and significantly wose traffic) than us.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/politics-government/article135610983.html

[kermit]

CATS Quarterly FTA Agenda time again. Agenda is for the March 9^th meeting. This was a quick read so I may have misinterpreted or overlooked some critical material.

http://charlottenc.gov/cats/about/boards/FTA%20Quarterly/FTA-Quarterly-Agenda-170309.pdf#search=FTA%20quarterly

The document does not have much discussion of the delays in opening but the revenue service date is consistently  listed as 11/3/17 throughout the document.

• ·       Gold Line ridership down 8.5% in January -- no surprise given the truly crappy reliability

•         $5 million more for Gateway Station has fallen from the sky (money from the FRA) pdf 6

•        Schedule Status “The Revenue Service Date went from October 6, 2017 to November 3, 2017 during the BL 98 Schedule Update. The primary cause of delay is contained within the Track and Systems schedule.” (pdf 25). Problems at the the U City parking deck (sounds like somebody left some important conduits off the plans before concrete was poured) get the most discussion in the explanation of the delay. There was some additional discussion of NS track relocation issues on pdf 25-26 but nothing was clear about delay extent.

• ·       Revenue service date is also listed as 11/3/17 on pdf p26. This is consistent with a delay in the Track and Systems contract of three months to 6/4/17 (pdf p 71)

•  I didn’t see anything worthy of note in the Phase II Gold Line report

•         Gateway Station: 65% engineering on track plans should be complete this month
• ·       The FRA funding mentioned on pdf 6 (the new $5 million) was not mentioned in the Gateway station section of the document???
• ·       Nothing of note in Silver Line discussion
• ·       North / West / Center City corridor studies: “the goal of this effort is to identify potential transit needs for the 50-100 year future and be able to coordinate with future center city development."
• ·       “The study is expected to have a duration of appx 18 months, beginning July 2017 and ending in December 2018.” (148)

Edited March 7, 2017 by kermit

[jtmonk]

Thanks for the update Kermit.  Just to make sure I understand this correctly, the Blue Line Extension is now scheduled open November 3rd, 2017 right?  The news last week of a possible March 2018 opening is what could happen in a worst case scenario correct?