Economic Development

[I am Reality]

On 3/3/2018 at 12:46 AM, prahaboheme said:

This project, along with the Yard, are two of the more interesting and ambitious developments to hit downtown in many years.  It'll be fun to watch them both come together over the same timeframe. 

Unfortunately, there is little interesting or ambitious about either building. One is a rather ordinary building that is essentislly a talk parking garage. The other is a standard apartment building.

For interesting, how about the Amazon building in Seattle, the Comcast Innovation Center in Philadelphia, the Apple building in Palo Alto or the Salesforce building in San Francisco?

The common theme..all are corporate headquarters and all are home to thousands of great jobs! Actual jobs! And they are architecturally superior to anything here. The Amazon building has a $4 billion indoor garden to encourage creative thought. The Salesforce building is earthquake-proof and has a freaking fountain on top. The Comcast building has 16 ft high ceilings to create a loft-like feel for NBC's creative team. Everyone kniws about the Apple Ring already. Cutting-edge stuff.

Those are interesting.

 

 

[prahaboheme]

21 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Unfortunately, there is little interesting or ambitious about either building. One is a rather ordinary building that is essentislly a talk parking garage. The other is a standard apartment building.

For interesting, how about the Amazon building in Seattle, the Comcast Innovation Center in Philadelphia, the Apple building in Palo Alto or the Salesforce building in San Francisco?

The common theme..all are corporate headquarters and all are home to thousands of great jobs! Actual jobs! And they are architecturally superior to anything here. The Amazon building has a $4 billion indoor garden to encourage creative thought. The Salesforce building is earthquake-proof and has a freaking fountain on top. The Comcast building has 16 ft high ceilings to create a loft-like feel for NBC's creative team. Everyone kniws about the Apple Ring already. Cutting-edge stuff.

Those are interesting.

 

 

I was working in Seattle just last week. That Amazon building you reference is completely closed off to the public. There may be creative thought going on inside, but the exterior is just another blockbuster Amazon building in Seattle that promotes nothing positive for non-Amazon workers.

The Apple building is nice, but is in a suburb. 

Comcast and  Salesforce are indeed great additions to both cities (2 of the oldest in the US with a critical mass to support such buildings).

None of this negates the positive impact that the Yard and the Church St tower will have in Orlando.

 

 

[spenser1058]

Not to mention Philadelphia is barely growing (about 2% vs. 13% for Orlando over the last 6 years) and has pockets of entrenched poverty over many generations that is difficult to escape from. It's great to be wealthy in Philly; if you can't get a job, not so much.

[popsiclebrandon]

Why didn't we think about having some of the world's richest companies open their HQs here?! We've been doing everything wrong this whole time, its so simple!

[I am Reality]

For better or worse, modern cities are centers of wealth (expect Orlando). A typical city has huge amounts of wealth and pockets of poverty. Philadelphia is no different than NYC or Chicago or LA or Miami.  I can talk about Philadelphia all day long.  Philly has many large corporate HQs, top notch research schools (2 local Ivy Leagues), pharmeutical centers, some of the world's top law firms, its own stock exchange. FMC is building a 60 story building. Comcast has two (TWO) 1000 foot skyscrapers. And there are multiple 50 story luxury condos being built. 

The local leaders in Philly focused on jobs. Do you think they really care that Orlando has a 13% growth rate?  I think not. It's all about quality...and quality. Philly was left for dead when the Nazy shut down its shipyard. That shipyard is now a huge tech campus. 

Also, the garden at Amazon HQ was never intended as a public garden.  Does that make it any less "ambitious"? 

The comment was how The Yard and Church St were interesting and "ambitious." That shows a real lack of perspective. There is nothing ambitious about them at all.  

The message has gone from the projects being interesting & ambitious, to making a "contribution" to Orlando.  That is moving the goalposts.  In any event, neither project makes any significant contribution. Apartment complexes & hotels are a dime-a-dozen in the area.  And there is serious glut of parking spaces downtown. I'll ask again...what quality jobs will be going in at either project? How will either project change our lives?

How old are Salesforce and Amazon? Not very. Apple and Comcast were nothing 15 years ago. These are not century-old companies like GE. They are not tethered forever to their cities. They are new. They grew out of innovative environments, surrounded by great education, top talent and creativity. It is not an accident Amazon did not start a few years ago in Orlando.   

[bqknight]

44 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

For better or worse, modern cities are centers of wealth (expect Orlando). A typical city has huge amounts of wealth and pockets of poverty. Philadelphia is no different than NYC or Chicago or LA or Miami.  I can talk about Philadelphia all day long.  Philly has many large corporate HQs, top notch research schools (2 local Ivy Leagues), pharmeutical centers, some of the world's top law firms, its own stock exchange. FMC is building a 60 story building. Comcast has two (TWO) 1000 foot skyscrapers. And there are multiple 50 story luxury condos being built. 

The local leaders in Philly focused on jobs. Do you think they really care that Orlando has a 13% growth rate?  I think not. It's all about quality...and quality. Philly was left for dead when the Nazy shut down its shipyard. That shipyard is now a huge tech campus. 

Also, the garden at Amazon HQ was never intended as a public garden.  Does that make it any less "ambitious"? 

The comment was how The Yard and Church St were interesting and "ambitious." That shows a real lack of perspective. There is nothing ambitious about them at all.  

The message has gone from the projects being interesting & ambitious, to making a "contribution" to Orlando.  That is moving the goalposts.  In any event, neither project makes any significant contribution. Apartment complexes & hotels are a dime-a-dozen in the area.  And there is serious glut of parking spaces downtown. I'll ask again...what quality jobs will be going in at either project? How will either project change our lives?

How old are Salesforce and Amazon? Not very. Apple and Comcast were nothing 15 years ago. These are not century-old companies like GE. They are not tethered forever to their cities. They are new. They grew out of innovative environments, surrounded by great education, top talent and creativity. It is not an accident Amazon did not start a few years ago in Orlando.   

Honestly - why do you live here? 

[I am Reality]

3 minutes ago, bqknight said:

Honestly - why do you live here? 

Honestly - I'm not impressed with a new parking garage & apartment complex...so I shouldn't live here?

I honestly hope more people shrug off the small stuff.

Let's think bigger.  Counting whether a building is 26 or 28 floors is bush-league stuff.  If you think otherwise, maybe you shouldn't live here.

 

 

[IAmFloridaBorn]

4 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Unfortunately, there is little interesting or ambitious about either building. One is a rather ordinary building that is essentislly a talk parking garage. The other is a standard apartment building.

For interesting, how about the Amazon building in Seattle, the Comcast Innovation Center in Philadelphia, the Apple building in Palo Alto or the Salesforce building in San Francisco?

The common theme..all are corporate headquarters and all are home to thousands of great jobs! Actual jobs! And they are architecturally superior to anything here. The Amazon building has a $4 billion indoor garden to encourage creative thought. The Salesforce building is earthquake-proof and has a freaking fountain on top. The Comcast building has 16 ft high ceilings to create a loft-like feel for NBC's creative team. Everyone kniws about the Apple Ring already. Cutting-edge stuff.

Those are interesting.

 

 

Are you faulting Orlando for not being more than it was when these companies begin? Orlando is what it is. No project will take away from that. As already stated, The Yard, and Church Street Plaza will only add to the urban core. To me, it's a win because something isn't going to Lake Mary or Maitland for a change.

[dcluley98]

4 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Unfortunately, there is little interesting or ambitious about either building. One is a rather ordinary building that is essentislly a talk parking garage. The other is a standard apartment building.

For interesting, how about the Amazon building in Seattle, the Comcast Innovation Center in Philadelphia, the Apple building in Palo Alto or the Salesforce building in San Francisco?

The common theme..all are corporate headquarters and all are home to thousands of great jobs! Actual jobs! And they are architecturally superior to anything here. The Amazon building has a $4 billion indoor garden to encourage creative thought. The Salesforce building is earthquake-proof and has a freaking fountain on top. The Comcast building has 16 ft high ceilings to create a loft-like feel for NBC's creative team. Everyone kniws about the Apple Ring already. Cutting-edge stuff.

Those are interesting.

4

You do realize that the image you picked to show of the Salesforce building is one that somebody photoshopped to look like an ejaculating penis, right?   Hahaha!

Well, I guess that is "interesting" to some people! LOLOL. 

 

[I am Reality]

1 hour ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Are you faulting Orlando for not being more than it was when these companies begin? Orlando is what it is. No project will take away from that. As already stated, The Yard, and Church Street Plaza will only add to the urban core. To me, it's a win because something isn't going to Lake Mary or Maitland for a change.

I say we have to think bigger.  And you come back with "Orlando is what it is."  

That is either complete indifference, defeatist, or both.

It shows a real lack of fight.

 

[prahaboheme]

4 hours ago, I am Reality said:

 

The comment was how The Yard and Church St were interesting and "ambitious." That shows a real lack of perspective. There is nothing ambitious about them at all.  

The message has gone from the projects being interesting & ambitious, to making a "contribution" to Orlando.  That is moving the goalposts.  In any event, neither project makes any significant contribution. Apartment complexes & hotels are a dime-a-dozen in the area.  And there is serious glut of parking spaces downtown. I'll ask again...what quality jobs will be going in at either project? How will either project change our lives?

Let's just be clear that what you are passing off as fact is subjective. For someone who is claiming I lack perspective, you seem to be the one with a narrow view on what constitutes a successful downtown.

[JFW657]

4 hours ago, I am Reality said:

For better or worse, modern cities are centers of wealth (expect Orlando). A typical city has huge amounts of wealth and pockets of poverty. Philadelphia is no different than NYC or Chicago or LA or Miami.  I can talk about Philadelphia all day long.  Philly has many large corporate HQs, top notch research schools (2 local Ivy Leagues), pharmeutical centers, some of the world's top law firms, its own stock exchange. FMC is building a 60 story building. Comcast has two (TWO) 1000 foot skyscrapers. And there are multiple 50 story luxury condos being built. 

The local leaders in Philly focused on jobs. Do you think they really care that Orlando has a 13% growth rate?  I think not. It's all about quality...and quality. Philly was left for dead when the Nazy shut down its shipyard. That shipyard is now a huge tech campus. 

Also, the garden at Amazon HQ was never intended as a public garden.  Does that make it any less "ambitious"? 

The comment was how The Yard and Church St were interesting and "ambitious." That shows a real lack of perspective. There is nothing ambitious about them at all.  

The message has gone from the projects being interesting & ambitious, to making a "contribution" to Orlando.  That is moving the goalposts.  In any event, neither project makes any significant contribution. Apartment complexes & hotels are a dime-a-dozen in the area.  And there is serious glut of parking spaces downtown. I'll ask again...what quality jobs will be going in at either project? How will either project change our lives?

How old are Salesforce and Amazon? Not very. Apple and Comcast were nothing 15 years ago. These are not century-old companies like GE. They are not tethered forever to their cities. They are new. They grew out of innovative environments, surrounded by great education, top talent and creativity. It is not an accident Amazon did not start a few years ago in Orlando.   

Do the residents of Philadelphia still refer to it as "Filthy-delphia"? 

[I am Reality]

15 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Do the residents of Philadelphia still refer to it as "Filthy-delphia"? 

You mean the same residents spending $6 million for condos in the Ritz-Carlton or on Rittenhouse Square, or on a 150 year-old townhouse/mansion on Old City, or a stone mansion in Bryn Mawr, or one of the many "tall" multi-million dollar condo projects thoughout  Center City?  The same residents who have a Nordstrom and Restoration Hardware in every mall? 

I think they do alright for themselves.

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, I am Reality said:

You mean the same residents spending $6 million for condos in the Ritz-Carlton or on Rittenhouse Square, or on a 150 year-old townhouse/mansion on Old City, or a stone mansion in Bryn Mawr, or one of the many "tall" multi-million dollar condo projects thoughout  Center City?  The same residents who have a Nordstrom and Restoration Hardware in every mall? 

I think they do alright for themselves.

Yawn.

[I am Reality]

11 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Yawn.

Your boredom suggests you'd rather count floors on an architectural rendering.

...22...

...23...

...24 floors...

Or maybe we can talk some more about 7-11s.

Do tell me what interests you...other than answers to questions you yourself asked.

(Just a suggestion: don't ask questions if you can't handle the answers. Just saying..)

 

[JFW657]

41 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Your boredom suggests you'd rather count floors on an architectural rendering.

...22...

...23...

...24 floors...

Or maybe we can talk some more about 7-11s.

Do tell me what interests you...other than answers to questions you yourself asked.

(Just a suggestion: don't ask questions if you can't handle the answers. Just saying..)

 Yawn.

[jrs2]

15 hours ago, I am Reality said:

I say we have to think bigger.  And you come back with "Orlando is what it is."  

That is either complete indifference, defeatist, or both.

It shows a real lack of fight.

 

Nah, that’s not what it is.  The thing about Orlando, is, that sure, the MSA is oh so big compared to several older cities around the US.  Yet some of those other cities have a greater city population, greater density in their downtowns, and greater corporate presence in their downtowns, even though their MSA’s are smaller.  These numbers hide this fact or distract people from the truth that Orlando is not very developed downtown.  It’s not.  It actually “is” what it is.  But that doesn’t mean people want it to stay the way it is.  Some do, though.

A few years ago on another forum, there was a debate about Orlando vs Tampa ala downtown office space.  Orlando had more, but, Tampa argued that it had more “leaseable” office space, which was true.  Yet another stat to alter perceptions about downtown.

We all know about the Disney vs downtown arguments and comparisons ala entertainment venues and hotel rooms.  We all know about corporate offices the MSA has that are suburban and stay clear of downtown too, which is a shame.

I do agree that the expectations have been stunted, kinda like the mentality of owning a home to being satisfied with renting a micro-apartment.  The 2006 building boom only saw 1/3 of the projects get built downtown or less.  And worse, the banks’ perception of downtown Orlando was worse and this showed in their collective willingness to give out construction loans.

Which is why CSP is a big deal.  It’s a tight lot, has a future integration into Sunrail planned, adds density, changes the skyline from a very popular viewing perspective, extends the CBD density to the west, and has a decent design.

The Yard is important not because of what it is, in a vacuum, but because of where it is.  It’s urban redevelopment.

As for focusing on whether CSP is 2 or 4 floors shorter than what was originally expected and whether that’s even a legitimate discussion or focus to have, well, sure it is.  If it wasn’t, then the Port Authority of NY wouldn’t have been contemplating extending WTC 2’s height to best the taller U/C Sears Tower.

Which brings me back to CSP yet again.  It is a huge win b/c it is not in the suburbs in a different form, namely, that of a 4-5 story office building with neighboring 7 story 3 star hotel off of SR 46A.

Being happy about this doesn’t mean people don’t want the Comcast tower in downtown.

[idroveazamboni]

Wow, fighting over high rise development. How about we all enjoy what is being developed and remember the market dictate what gets built.  I don’t live in Orlando but have ties to the area. Enjoy and be glad a nice 300+ foot building with an integrated  Sunrail stop.   Wyndham is splitting timeshare and business and relocated HQ here based on latest Revenues which was @4.4 billion, not quite Fortune 500 but definitely a Fortune 1000 Company once split is finalized in 2018. 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/brinkmann-on-business/os-bz-wyndham-timeshare-orlando-20170803-story.html

Edited March 4, 2018 by idroveazamboni

[I am Reality]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

Nah, that’s not what it is.  The thing about Orlando, is, that sure, the MSA is oh so big compared to several older cities around the US.  Yet some of those other cities have a greater city population, greater density in their downtowns, and greater corporate presence in their downtowns, even though their MSA’s are smaller.  These numbers hide this fact or distract people from the truth that Orlando is not very developed downtown.  It’s not.  It actually “is” what it is.  But that doesn’t mean people want it to stay the way it is.  Some do, though.

A few years ago on another forum, there was a debate about Orlando vs Tampa ala downtown office space.  Orlando had more, but, Tampa argued that it had more “leaseable” office space, which was true.  Yet another stat to alter perceptions about downtown.

We all know about the Disney vs downtown arguments and comparisons ala entertainment venues and hotel rooms.  We all know about corporate offices the MSA has that are suburban and stay clear of downtown too, which is a shame.

I do agree that the expectations have been stunted, kinda like the mentality of owning a home to being satisfied with renting a micro-apartment.  The 2006 building boom only saw 1/3 of the projects get built downtown or less.  And worse, the banks’ perception of downtown Orlando was worse and this showed in their collective willingness to give out construction loans.

Which is why CSP is a big deal.  It’s a tight lot, has a future integration into Sunrail planned, adds density, changes the skyline from a very popular viewing perspective, extends the CBD density to the west, and has a decent design.

The Yard is important not because of what it is, in a vacuum, but because of where it is.  It’s urban redevelopment.

As for focusing on whether CSP is 2 or 4 floors shorter than what was originally expected and whether that’s even a legitimate discussion or focus to have, well, sure it is.  If it wasn’t, then the Port Authority of NY wouldn’t have been contemplating extending WTC 2’s height to best the taller U/C Sears Tower.

Which brings me back to CSP yet again.  It is a huge win b/c it is not in the suburbs in a different form, namely, that of a 4-5 story office building with neighboring 7 story 3 star hotel off of SR 46A.

Being happy about this doesn’t mean people don’t want the Comcast tower in downtown.

Orlando is not unique. Every city has large corporate headquarters in its suburbs:

Seattle: Costco

Portland: Nike 

San Francisco: Every Silicon Valley firm 

Denver: Western Union

Dallas: American Airlines 

Austin: Dell 

Philadelphia: Vanguard (the largest mutual fund in the world), AmeriSource Bergen, and AstraZenica (U.S. headquarters)

Baltimore: Under Armor 

I could go on and go. These cities grew downtown AND in the suburbs. Nothing unusual.  You've seen how crazy Center City Philadelphia is growing, despite the huge suburban campuses.

But let's assume you are right- Orlando is somehow unique in that companies build in the suburbs.  Where exactly are the large corporate suburban campuses near Orlando? 

There are none. 

Charlotte is HQ for 16 Fortune 500 corporations. As someone recently pointed out in this website...Orlando is HQ to 2 (TWO!!)  of the largest 1000 (THOUSAND) corps in America. Charlotte is the same size and just as new as Orlando. The difference - Charlotte did not actively chase minimum-wage tourism jobs. That is a BIG, BIG difference. Priorities! 

Just this past wk alone:

Amazon recently announced 4K new executive jobs at the SeaPort in Boston (in addition to 900 new postions in Ft. Point & 1,200 existing jobs)

Charlotte got a new Ernst & Young "wavespace" to focus on cutting edge tech like Blockchain, AI & robotics. The only other "E&Y wavespces" are located in NYC, SF, & Seattle.

Denver got the global HQ for DigitalGlobe, adding 800 high-wage jobs.

Austin got a new Oracle cloud-computing business accelerator that will employee hundreds, in addition to 4K Oracle jobs already planned in Austin.

Cleveland was selected to host a Plug & Play business accelerator that will focus on health tech. The only other Plus & Play accelerators will be held in NYC, Amsterdam, Abu Dhabi and Tokyo.

Orlando is bigger or similarly-sized a lot of the cities I just mentioned.

Corporations are passing Orlando by (with the notable exception of Lockheed Martin). If you think our economy is so strong, think again. We have NO corporate presence. It is a shame, but not an accident. Orlando fights for the lowest-wage jobs possible (and does not focus on education). That is profoundly messed-up. 

 

 

[idroveazamboni]

Orlando only has one Fortune 500 Company Darden 

[idroveazamboni]

WWE would be a good candidate to relocate to Orlando since a lot of it’s operations are already here. Not a big company @800 million but would be a good addition. 

[orange87]

44 minutes ago, idroveazamboni said:

WWE would be a good candidate to relocate to Orlando since a lot of it’s operations are already here. Not a big company @800 million but would be a good addition. 

I agree. ESPN would be a good candidate to relocate to Orlando as well. Both WWE and ESPN are currently headquartered in Connecticut.

[idroveazamboni]

 

[spenser1058]

The thing is, it's important to think of Orlando as a region, not just a city. Those who insist on following the Manhattan model of urban development are unlikely to be happy here, because like most Sun Belt cities that grew after the automobile came along, it was easier and cheaper to build out rather than up.

Miami is an exception because it was hemmed in by water on the east and the Everglades to the west, so it just sprawled north until Broward and Palm Beach counties filled up. It also had the influence of Latin American developers and investors in the last 20 years that, according to the New York Times, embraced the vertical model.

Another way to go vertical is by statute as the Pacific Northwest has done. State governments in the South, however, tend to be too laissez faire for that (see Texas and Georgia for comparison.)

Sometimes, Southern cities like Nashville, Austin and Charlotte do achieve vertical success but that's because they have major economic centers in their downtowns (state governments in Nashville and Austin, banking in Charlotte.) Atlanta and Nashville both have major tourism infrastructure downtown.

From the very beginning, Orlando's downtown was secondary. First, nearby Winter Park and Sanford competed for preeminence, then the citrus industry which formed the bulk of the economy for 75 years was totally decentralized.

After WWII, Martin bought several thousand acres to develop south of town, the space industry developed an hour away on the coast and then Walt Disney bought 43 square miles southwest of town to launch today's primary industry, tourism.

We had two chances to really change the decentralized model. Had FTU been placed downtown in the '60's like UAB in Birmingham, that could have made a difference (we're now attempting to rectify that somewhat with UCF Downtown).  We could also have placed the convention center downtown and watched the convention hotels go vertical (that happened in Atlanta). The problem is that, just as Walt wanted a clean slate when he decided to make his own city, the thinking of most folks at that time was that downtowns were the past, not the future.

That changed by the 1980's and people came to see what a lovely little gem we had downtown. Ironically, the press and urbanists like Andres Duany and William Whyte have heaped praise on what we've done while several posters here have nothing but scorn (it always seems those folks often don't live downtown like I have for over 30 years, watching the transition. Our downtown, in fact, has been adding residents faster than just about any other second tier US city  and we've had billions (yep, with a "B") of dollars in private and public infrastructure added.

Further, downtown isn't where the challenge is for well-paying jobs; for that matter, neither is the east side's tech jobs or Maitland/Seminole County's white collar office parks. The hundreds of thousands of unskilled jobs that make us unique in avoiding pockets of entrenched poverty and unemployment are to the southwest,  not downtown.

As far as corporate headquarters go, again it's important to consider the region. In addition to Darden, we had Hughes Supply on the Fortune 500 until it was acquired by Home Depot. Harris, a tech firm in Melbourne, is on the list, as is Publix in Lakeland (both just one County over from Orange and would be part of our MSA if those counties' populations weren't well over half a million each.)

BTW, Tupperware IS a corporate HQ for us going back 50+ years, but they're Fortune 1000 at 886 in 2017 (they've been in the 700's previously.) A financial services firm in Altamonte has also made the list previously.

The reason a corporate HQ matters is to have businesspeople with the interest to make changes in the area and the corporate resources to finance them. By that definition, Disney Parks was largely run from Florida and local honchos Dick Nunis, Al Weiss and Meg Crofton were very involved in community affairs (current WDW prez George Kalogridis, a Winter Haven native, has been less active, but Disney's presence is likely to change again with other leaders. Before the Lockheed merger with Martin, local execs like Norm Augustine played active roles in civic affairs. Since the merger, we haven't seen that and we'll wait to see if that changes.

Tavistock is creating something amazing at Lake Nona and their execs are a major part of things like Medical City and the Amazon bid. 

The private space industry is just really, ummm, launching in Brevard. I'll have more to say about that later in a comparison of Spaceport Florida with New Mexico's struggling Spaceport America project.

Is Lake Nona a threat to our success? No more so than Midtown or Buckhead are to Atlanta or Research Triangle Park is to Raleigh. All development doesn't have to be downtown to make a city successful.

The bottom line is tha people want to be in Orlando, businesses are investing billions in the region and our problems come from being too popular than from declining populations and industries like in, ummmmm, Pennsylvania.

Personally, I'd much rather be here than there (did I mention our weather is much better also?)

Edited March 4, 2018 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

I would quote I Am Reality but it's just too long a post to duplicate.  Good points, though, but you're inferring an intent that's not there.  Spenser1058, you knocked that out of the park.

Anyway, AAA, Adventist Health, Red Lobster, Mitsubishi Power Systems,and Suntrust Fla. are some of the other HQ's here.  Airtran was absorbed by Southwest.  KPM&G is building a big campus.

This isn't a pissing match with Philly, a city with a million people in it's city limits that used to be our nation's capitol.  Or with NY, Seattle, SF, or Charlotte.  Seminole lured Verizon and DeLoitte recently, and there are dozens upon dozens of companies in Maitland Center, Southpark, CFL Res Park, Lake Mary's 3 major office parks, Etc.  It's not just service industry and hotel jobs here.  And Martin has two campuses.  Don't they still?

Spenser1058 said it best...that the suburban flight era followed the era of big city business centers, except that Orlando was small back then...and just skipped to the suburban flight stage without the former.