I am Reality

Economic Development

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1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

The thing is, it's important to think of Orlando as a region, not just a city. Those who insist on following the Manhattan model of urban development are unlikely to be happy here, because like most Sun Belt cities that grew after the automobile came along, it was easier and cheaper to build out rather than up.

Miami is an exception because it was hemmed in by water on the east and the Everglades to the west, so it just sprawled north until Broward and Palm Beach counties filled up. It also had the influence of Latin American developers and investors in the last 20 years that, according to the New York Times, embraced the vertical model.

Another way to go vertical is by statute as the Pacific Northwest has done. State governments in the South, however, tend to be too laissez faire for that (see Texas and Georgia for comparison.)

Sometimes, Southern cities like Nashville, Austin and Charlotte do achieve vertical success but that's because they have major economic centers in their downtowns (state governments in Nashville and Austin, banking in Charlotte.) Atlanta and Nashville both have major tourism infrastructure downtown.

From the very beginning, Orlando's downtown was secondary. First, nearby Winter Park and Sanford competed for preeminence, then the citrus industry which formed the bulk of the economy for 75 years was totally decentralized.

After WWII, Martin bought several thousand acres to develop south of town, the space industry developed an hour away on the coast and then Walt Disney bought 43 square miles southwest of town to launch today's primary industry, tourism.

We had two chances to really change the decentralized model. Had FTU been placed downtown in the '60's like UAB in Birmingham, that could have made a difference (we're now attempting to rectify that somewhat with UCF Downtown).  We could also have placed the convention center downtown and watched the convention hotels go vertical (that happened in Atlanta). The problem is that, just as Walt wanted a clean slate when he decided to make his own city, the thinking of most folks at that time was that downtowns were the past, not the future.

That changed by the 1980's and people came to see what a lovely little gem we had downtown. Ironically, the press and urbanists like Andres Duany and William Whyte have heaped praise on what we've done while several posters here have nothing but scorn (it always seems those folks often don't live downtown like I have for over 30 years, watching the transition. Our downtown, in fact, has been adding residents faster than just about any other second tier US city  and we've had billions (yep, with a "B") of dollars in private and public infrastructure added.

Further, downtown isn't where the challenge is for well-paying jobs; for that matter, neither is the east side's tech jobs or Maitland/Seminole County's white collar office parks. The hundreds of thousands of unskilled jobs that make us unique in avoiding pockets of entrenched poverty and unemployment are to the southwest,  not downtown.

As far as corporate headquarters go, again it's important to consider the region. In addition to Darden, we had Hughes Supply on the Fortune 500 until it was acquired by Home Depot. Harris, a tech firm in Melbourne, is on the list, as is Publix in Lakeland (both just one County over from Orange and would be part of our MSA if those counties' populations weren't well over half a million each.)

BTW, Tupperware IS a corporate HQ for us going back 50+ years, but they're Fortune 1000 at 886 in 2017 (they've been in the 700's previously.) A financial services firm in Altamonte has also made the list previously.

The reason a corporate HQ matters is to have businesspeople with the interest to make changes in the area and the corporate resources to finance them. By that definition, Disney Parks was largely run from Florida and local honchos Dick Nunis, Al Weiss and Meg Crofton were very involved in community affairs (current WDW prez George Kalogridis, a Winter Haven native, has been less active, but Disney's presence is likely to change again with other leaders. Before the Lockheed merger with Martin, local execs like Norm Augustine played active roles in civic affairs. Since the merger, we haven't seen that and we'll wait to see if that changes.

Tavistock is creating something amazing at Lake Nona and their execs are a major part of things like Medical City and the Amazon bid. 

The private space industry is just really, ummm, launching in Brevard. I'll have more to say about that later in a comparison of Spaceport Florida with New Mexico's struggling Spaceport America project.

Is Lake Nona a threat to our success? No more so than Midtown or Buckhead are to Atlanta or Research Triangle Park is to Raleigh. All development doesn't have to be downtown to make a city successful.

The bottom line is tha people want to be in Orlando, businesses are investing billions in the region and our problems come from being too popular than from declining populations and industries like in, ummmmm, Pennsylvania.

Personally, I'd much rather be here than there (did I mention our weather is much better also?)

I understand the land-use history of the area. It does not prevent the fact that we have no corporate presence here. By your own admission, we have 3 home-companies in the Fortune 1000 (one in the high 800s).  That is an abysmal record.  As a top 25 or 30 MSA, we should have at least 20 just by randomized statistics (or luck-of-the-draw). We have 3.  It's really abysmal.

And Publix doesn't count b/c it's not the same MSA. If we were to look outside actual MSAs, I could spend all day talking  about other cities. Publix has the same relationship to Orlando that Wal-Mart does. It has stores here and employs a lot of people. Again, nothing unique to Orlando. I've never lived anywhere that didn't have grocery stores.

Want to talk impressive..how about Whole Foods' HQ in Austin (pre-Amazon)?  Whole Foods actually innovated food-buying and changed the way many eat.  Austin: Smaller city; just as new as Orlando.

We can go back and forth all day about this. The fact still remains there is no demand for offices downtown. There is no demand because there are few corporate, professional jobs. All Sunbelt cities grew after the automobile was introduced. Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin, Phoenix, LA, San Diego all have experienced the same urban sprawl we have (sometimes many times worse). All but the coastal cities have no natural boundaries. Again, sprawl is nothing unique to Orlando and cannot account for its lack of downtown development.

If there were jobs...there would be development beyond parking garages.

 

 

 

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That's the amazing thing we've accomplished: Downtown Orlando is a great place to live, work AND play. Very few cities have been as successful at that as we have. That's why, again, we're one of the fastest growing downtowns in terms of new residents. And, thanks to our close in neighborhoods, when the college age kids filling the downtown apartments graduate and have kids, there are close-in neighborhoods with good schools so they don't have to leave and decamp for the 'burbs. 

I forgot to mention that a good chunk of Comcast's capital expenditures over the last decade have been spent in... Orlando! They like us too!

Another place with lots of corporate clout downtown (and lots of tall towers to go with them) is Tampa. Funny thing is, they, like downtown Jacksonville, have been remarkably unsuccessful in getting people to move downtown.

There are pros and cons for every city but we have no reason to be ashamed of what's happening here. Once again, the numbers tell the tale. By 2020. , we'll likely be in the top 20 MSAs. In 1980, we were at #50. Very few places have moved 30 spots on the list in 40 years. This is a place people want to be.

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3 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

That's the amazing thing we've accomplished: Downtown Orlando is a great place to live, work AND play. Very few cities have been as successful at that as we have. That's why, again, we're one of the fastest growing downtowns in terms of new residents. And, thanks to our close in neighborhoods, when the college age kids filling the downtown apartments graduate and have kids, there are close-in neighborhoods with good schools so they don't have to leave and decamp for the 'burbs. 

I forgot to mention that a good chunk of Comcast's capital expenditures over the last decade have been spent in... Orlando! They like us too!

Another place with lots of corporate clout downtown (and lots of tall towers to go with them) is Tampa. Funny thing is, they, like downtown Jacksonville, have been remarkably unsuccessful in getting people to move downtown.

There are pros and cons for every city but we have no reason to be ashamed of what's happening here. Once again, the numbers tell the tale. By 2020. , we'll likely be in the top 20 MSAs. In 1980, we were at #50. Very few places have moved 30 spots on the list in 40 years. This is a place people want to be.

Holy hell. We keep moving the goalposts. 

Now we are talking about where we want to spend a Sat night or where people want to "play"?  I'd personally rather hang out in New Orleans. Doesn't mean I want to move there.

Let me know when we are talking about  development again.

And Comcast can keep their Universal money. They treat us like a colony. They make a ton of money here and ship it right out. We don't need or want their low paying jobs. I'm supposed to be impressed with what they be done for us? Seriously? They only reinforce the worst parts of our local economy and people are stupid enough to praise them for it.  Build a Comcast Innovation Center downtown with corporate jobs and I will be impressed.

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2 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Holy hell. We keep moving the goalposts. 

Now we are talking about where we want to spend a Sat night or where people want to "play"?  I'd personally rather hang out in New Orleans. Doesn't mean I want to move there.

Let me know when we are talking about  development again.

And Comcast can keep their Universal money. They treat us like a colony. They make a ton of money here and ship it right out. We don't need or want their low paying jobs. I'm supposed to be impressed with what they be done for us? Seriously? They only reinforce the worst parts of our local economy and people are stupid enough to praise them for it.  Build a Comcast Innovation Center downtown with corporate jobs and I will be impressed.

Sorry, but the only goalpost mover I see around here is you.

You have stated unequivocally that the one and only thing that matters in creating a desirable city with a vibrant downtown is JOBS, and that in order to have jobs, a city needs multiple major corporate headquarters downtown.

I merely pointed out to you that one of the most boring, dead after dark cities in Florida, the Southeast and possibly the country, Jacksonville, has a pretty impressive Fortune 500 presence, but as far as being a desirable place to live and play, or having a vibrant downtown is concerned, Orlando walks all over it.

Do with that info what you will, but don't cry foul for having it pointed out to you.

 

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1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Sorry, but the only goalpost mover I see around here is you.

You have stated unequivocally that the one and only thing that matters in creating a desirable city with a vibrant downtown is JOBS, and that in order to have jobs, a city needs multiple major corporate headquarters downtown.

I merely pointed out to you that one of the most boring, dead after dark cities in Florida, the Southeast and possibly the country, Jacksonville, has a pretty impressive Fortune 500 presence, but as far as being a desirable place to live and play, or having a vibrant downtown is concerned, Orlando walks all over it.

Do with that info what you will, but don't cry foul for having it pointed out to you.

 

I commend Jacksonville for pulling in 3 Fortune 500 companies.

The Orlando leaders could learn something.

I know nothing about its social-scene & I honestly don't care.

But who ever said Orlando has a better social-scene than Austin?

Or Portland? 

Or New Orleans?

Or Raleigh/Durham?

Or Charleston, SC?

Or Vegas?

Or Charlottesville? 

Or Asheville?

Or Providencetown?

Or tiny Cape May?

Or Atlantic City?

Or Key West?

Or Burlington, VT?

This is getting waaaay off-topic. But again, let's have a little perspective. If you want an urban feel or a strong social-scene, you don't go to Orlando. 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Nah, that’s not what it is.  The thing about Orlando, is, that sure, the MSA is oh so big compared to several older cities around the US.  Yet some of those other cities have a greater city population, greater density in their downtowns, and greater corporate presence in their downtowns, even though their MSA’s are smaller.  These numbers hide this fact or distract people from the truth that Orlando is not very developed downtown.  It’s not.  It actually “is” what it is.  But that doesn’t mean people want it to stay the way it is.  Some do, though.

A few years ago on another forum, there was a debate about Orlando vs Tampa ala downtown office space.  Orlando had more, but, Tampa argued that it had more “leaseable” office space, which was true.  Yet another stat to alter perceptions about downtown.

We all know about the Disney vs downtown arguments and comparisons ala entertainment venues and hotel rooms.  We all know about corporate offices the MSA has that are suburban and stay clear of downtown too, which is a shame.

I do agree that the expectations have been stunted, kinda like the mentality of owning a home to being satisfied with renting a micro-apartment.  The 2006 building boom only saw 1/3 of the projects get built downtown or less.  And worse, the banks’ perception of downtown Orlando was worse and this showed in their collective willingness to give out construction loans.

Which is why CSP is a big deal.  It’s a tight lot, has a future integration into Sunrail planned, adds density, changes the skyline from a very popular viewing perspective, extends the CBD density to the west, and has a decent design.

The Yard is important not because of what it is, in a vacuum, but because of where it is.  It’s urban redevelopment.

As for focusing on whether CSP is 2 or 4 floors shorter than what was originally expected and whether that’s even a legitimate discussion or focus to have, well, sure it is.  If it wasn’t, then the Port Authority of NY wouldn’t have been contemplating extending WTC 2’s height to best the taller U/C Sears Tower.

Which brings me back to CSP yet again.  It is a huge win b/c it is not in the suburbs in a different form, namely, that of a 4-5 story office building with neighboring 7 story 3 star hotel off of SR 46A.

Being happy about this doesn’t mean people don’t want the Comcast tower in downtown.

 

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The thing is, it's important to think of Orlando as a region, not just a city. Those who insist on following the Manhattan model of urban development are unlikely to be happy here, because like most Sun Belt cities that grew after the automobile came along, it was easier and cheaper to build out rather than up.

Miami is an exception because it was hemmed in by water on the east and the Everglades to the west, so it just sprawled north until Broward and Palm Beach counties filled up. It also had the influence of Latin American developers and investors in the last 20 years that, according to the New York Times, embraced the vertical model.

Another way to go vertical is by statute as the Pacific Northwest has done. State governments in the South, however, tend to be too laissez faire for that (see Texas and Georgia for comparison.)

Sometimes, Southern cities like Nashville, Austin and Charlotte do achieve vertical success but that's because they have major economic centers in their downtowns (state governments in Nashville and Austin, banking in Charlotte.) Atlanta and Nashville both have major tourism infrastructure downtown.

From the very beginning, Orlando's downtown was secondary. First, nearby Winter Park and Sanford competed for preeminence, then the citrus industry which formed the bulk of the economy for 75 years was totally decentralized.

After WWII, Martin bought several thousand acres to develop south of town, the space industry developed an hour away on the coast and then Walt Disney bought 43 square miles southwest of town to launch today's primary industry, tourism.

We had two chances to really change the decentralized model. Had FTU been placed downtown in the '60's like UAB in Birmingham, that could have made a difference (we're now attempting to rectify that somewhat with UCF Downtown).  We could also have placed the convention center downtown and watched the convention hotels go vertical (that happened in Atlanta). The problem is that, just as Walt wanted a clean slate when he decided to make his own city, the thinking of most folks at that time was that downtowns were the past, not the future.

That changed by the 1980's and people came to see what a lovely little gem we had downtown. Ironically, the press and urbanists like Andres Duany and William Whyte have heaped praise on what we've done while several posters here have nothing but scorn (it always seems those folks often don't live downtown like I have for over 30 years, watching the transition. Our downtown, in fact, has been adding residents faster than just about any other second tier US city  and we've had billions (yep, with a "B") of dollars in private and public infrastructure added.

Further, downtown isn't where the challenge is for well-paying jobs; for that matter, neither is the east side's tech jobs or Maitland/Seminole County's white collar office parks. The hundreds of thousands of unskilled jobs that make us unique in avoiding pockets of entrenched poverty and unemployment are to the southwest,  not downtown.

As far as corporate headquarters go, again it's important to consider the region. In addition to Darden, we had Hughes Supply on the Fortune 500 until it was acquired by Home Depot. Harris, a tech firm in Melbourne, is on the list, as is Publix in Lakeland (both just one County over from Orange and would be part of our MSA if those counties' populations weren't well over half a million each.)

BTW, Tupperware IS a corporate HQ for us going back 50+ years, but they're Fortune 1000 at 886 in 2017 (they've been in the 700's previously.) A financial services firm in Altamonte has also made the list previously.

The reason a corporate HQ matters is to have businesspeople with the interest to make changes in the area and the corporate resources to finance them. By that definition, Disney Parks was largely run from Florida and local honchos Dick Nunis, Al Weiss and Meg Crofton were very involved in community affairs (current WDW prez George Kalogridis, a Winter Haven native, has been less active, but Disney's presence is likely to change again with other leaders. Before the Lockheed merger with Martin, local execs like Norm Augustine played active roles in civic affairs. Since the merger, we haven't seen that and we'll wait to see if that changes.

Tavistock is creating something amazing at Lake Nona and their execs are a major part of things like Medical City and the Amazon bid. 

The private space industry is just really, ummm, launching in Brevard. I'll have more to say about that later in a comparison of Spaceport Florida with New Mexico's struggling Spaceport America project.

Is Lake Nona a threat to our success? No more so than Midtown or Buckhead are to Atlanta or Research Triangle Park is to Raleigh. All development doesn't have to be downtown to make a city successful.

The bottom line is tha people want to be in Orlando, businesses are investing billions in the region and our problems come from being too popular than from declining populations and industries like in, ummmmm, Pennsylvania.

Personally, I'd much rather be here than there (did I mention our weather is much better also?)

*Slow Clap* very well worded.  I'll chime in with this. I like the fact Orlando is a newer city. Would I like for downtown to be bigger? Absolutely and it's headed that direction.  But it's so awesome to watch the city grow inward and outward. From mass highway expansions, I hope Orlando focuses on rail, so that the multiple business centers can be better connected. As well as citizens being able to reach many of those areas without having to drive . 

This may be minimal thinking, but I'm actually glad all of the companies aren't downtown due to traffic. Orlando has moderate traffic that flows because we have multiple work clusters. I think that's a plus for our metro and will only get better.

At any rate, who knows what the kick off of this tower adding more Class A office space will do. I wan to see this be as much of a success as any of the high-rises in other cities. With all going on from both corners of downtowns, more density, people, and business is coming downtown and that is measured as success in my book.

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1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

I commend Jacksonville for pulling in 3 Fortune 500 companies.

The Orlando leaders could learn something.

I know nothing about its social-scene & I honestly don't care.

But who ever said Orlando has a better social-scene than Austin?

Or Portland? 

Or New Orleans?

Or Raleigh/Durham?

Or Charleston, SC?

Or Vegas?

Or Charlottesville? 

Or Asheville?

Or Providencetown?

Or tiny Cape May?

Or Atlantic City?

Or Key West?

Or Burlington, VT?

This is getting waaaay off-topic. But again, let's have a little perspective. If you want an urban feel or a strong social-scene, you don't go to Orlando. 

Whatever you say....

mrnegative00.jpg

And btw, I don't think anyone here has ever claimed that Orlando has a more vibrant downtown than any of those cities you listed.

This isn't a competition.

Though you seem to be trying to turn it into one.

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7 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

We had two chances to really change the decentralized model. Had FTU been placed downtown in the '60's like UAB in Birmingham, that could have made a difference (we're now attempting to rectify that somewhat with UCF Downtown).  We could also have placed the convention center downtown and watched the convention hotels go vertical (that happened in Atlanta). The problem is that, just as Walt wanted a clean slate when he decided to make his own city, the thinking of most folks at that time was that downtowns were the past, not the future.

While I agree with the vast majority of what you wrote as well, I do want to input that a big reason of what I like about Orlando is our surrounding neighborhoods, our tourist destinations, and all that. I get "I am reality" wants to get rid of our tourism industry, which I find insane and would cause me to immediately leave... but, onto what you wrote, placing the convention center downtown likely wasn't a realistic option for the size we were going for, there is no way it would be what it is today if it was down town. It needed a massive amount of land, it needs its massive parking lots to work, etc. That is just what is required to attract the quantity and quality of conventions that we get. Its hard to say if UCF would be as big and successful as it is today if it wasn't downtown as well, and I like the UCF area and what they've built as well, although I do wish that was a bit more downtown.

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I agree on the convention center. The decision was made by the voters in 1978 (I think, definitely late '70's) and we were only thinking of the Phase 1 building, which is a very small part of what now exists. Even then, people were worried about the traffic at a time when I4 was rarely congested and the downtown streets were mostly empty.

UAB's location in downtown Birmingham works well but it doesn't have anything near the number of students UCF now has. Had the main campus gone downtown, I imagine an alternative campus would already exist or the Daytona and Brevard campuses would have required more expansion. (Fun fact: second choice for the main campus was the land that now comprises Wekiwa Springs State Park.)

Truth be told, I like the way things have worked out. My only regret is that the county commission dropped the ball on light rail when the Clinton administration handed it to us on a silver platter. Hopefully, Dale is taking good care of it for us in Charlotte.

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49 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I agree on the convention center. The decision was made by the voters in 1978 (I think, definitely late '70's) and we were only thinking of the Phase 1 building, which is a very small part of what now exists. Even then, people were worried about the traffic at a time when I4 was rarely congested and the downtown streets were mostly empty.

UAB's location in downtown Birmingham works well but it doesn't have anything near the number of students UCF now has. Had the main campus gone downtown, I imagine an alternative campus would already exist or the Daytona and Brevard campuses would have required more expansion. (Fun fact: second choice for the main campus was the land that now comprises Wekiwa Springs State Park.)

Truth be told, I like the way things have worked out. My only regret is that the county commission dropped the ball on light rail when the Clinton administration handed it to us on a silver platter. Hopefully, Dale is taking good care of it for us in Charlotte.

I must agree as well. The "major" decisions that I disagree with regarding the Orlando area all are in regards to our transportation system in my eyes, and that is something holding us back. Hopefully Brightline comes through and continues with some further expansion as is a good start (Sunrail failed in my eyes).

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5 hours ago, I am Reality said:

I commend Jacksonville for pulling in 3 Fortune 500 companies.

The Orlando leaders could learn something.

I know nothing about its social-scene & I honestly don't care.

But who ever said Orlando has a better social-scene than Austin?

Or Portland? 

Or New Orleans?

Or Raleigh/Durham?

Or Charleston, SC?

Or Vegas?

Or Charlottesville? 

Or Asheville?

Or Providencetown?

Or tiny Cape May?

Or Atlantic City?

Or Key West?

Or Burlington, VT?

This is getting waaaay off-topic. But again, let's have a little perspective. If you want an urban feel or a strong social-scene, you don't go to Orlando. 

 

 

 

 

Are you really a troll?  OMG.  Making all these comparisons to different places with different histories and different social climates.  Wow.  crap, for that matter, I see your list and raise you Aspen, CO.

Is Downtown Orlando dead at night?  No.  What did I just ask?  Is Down-town Or-lan-do f-ing dead at night?  Or during the day?  N. O.  No.  Are you kidding me?

There ain’t no Union Square here b/c this ain’t SF as we all know; but it doesn’t mean that there isn’t anything happening in downtown either.

Comparing it to a city that’s older than the US is ridiculous, and comparing downtown to casino cities is also ridiculous.  

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I think you are in fact a troll.  Your whole corporate HQ argument that you made while ignoring the large corporate presence already here, while only stressing a glut of low paying tourism jobs, gets a thumbs down from me, b/c that’s what trolls do.

Sure, I’d like Comcast to open that office thingy you mentioned, but if they hadn’t bought Universal, Universal wouldn’t have helped bring Orlando’s tourism industry out of the recession.  Orlando doesn’t have casinos like Vegas does.  Nor does it have or had the likes of the Rat Pack gracing it’s venues from the glory years to it’s advantage for the sake of image.

Why the hec would someone wake up and say, hey, I want to go to Burlington, VT?  Providencetown?  Cape May?  Sans Vegas, Atlantic City, Portland, Key West, and NOLA, who gets wood thinking about going to those other places?

I don’t know, standing at the corner of Orange & Jackson, during heavy traffic, surrounded by other pedestrians, sipping on a Starbucks, while watching the Po Po dust Wahlburgers for prints after a shooting feels pretty urban to me.  Doing a 5k around Lake Eola seems pretty urban to me.  Hanging at Ace Cafe during a Porsche rally seems pretty urban to me.  Going to a concert at Firestone or those other older downtown venues seems pretty urban to me.  Going to DPAC for a play or show seems pretty urban to me.  Looking out my office window in downtown... 

Or is it all an illusion and you are Morpheus?

 

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2 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Are you really a troll?  OMG.  Making all these comparisons to different places with different histories and different social climates.  Wow.  crap, for that matter, I see your list and raise you Aspen, CO.

Is Downtown Orlando dead at night?  No.  What did I just ask?  Is Down-town Or-lan-do f-ing dead at night?  Or during the day?  N. O.  No.  Are you kidding me?

There ain’t no Union Square here b/c this ain’t SF as we all know; but it doesn’t mean that there isn’t anything happening in downtown either.

Comparing it to a city that’s older than the US is ridiculous, and comparing downtown to casino cities is also ridiculous.  

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I think you are in fact a troll.  Your whole corporate HQ argument that you made while ignoring the large corporate presence already here, while only stressing a glut of low paying tourism jobs, gets a thumbs down from me, b/c that’s what trolls do.

Sure, I’d like Comcast to open that office thingy you mentioned, but if they hadn’t bought Universal, Universal wouldn’t have helped bring Orlando’s tourism industry out of the recession.  Orlando doesn’t have casinos like Vegas does.  Nor does it have or had the likes of the Rat Pack gracing it’s venues from the glory years to it’s advantage for the sake of image.

Why the hec would someone wake up and say, hey, I want to go to Burlington, VT?  Providencetown?  Cape May?  Sans Vegas, Atlantic City, Portland, Key West, and NOLA, who gets wood thinking about going to those other places?

I don’t know, standing at the corner of Orange & Jackson, during heavy traffic, surrounded by other pedestrians, sipping on a Starbucks, while watching the Po Po dust Wahlburgers for prints after a shooting feels pretty urban to me.  Doing a 5k around Lake Eola seems pretty urban to me.  Hanging at Ace Cafe during a Porsche rally seems pretty urban to me.  Going to a concert at Firestone or those other older downtown venues seems pretty urban to me.  Going to DPAC for a play or show seems pretty urban to me.  Looking out my office window in downtown... 

Or is it all an illusion and you are Morpheus?

 

I didn't raise the issue of Orlando's social-scene. Someone else did. But Orlando's image for nightlife is even worse than its image for Jobs. You are crazy if you think dowtown has a great nightlife or restaurants.  People get excited going out in Miami and NYC or Atlanta. Orlando, not so much.  (If you notice, I deliberately chose smaller cities or similar-sized cities in my previous post to show how stupid the argument is)

Seriously. Things were actually better here 30 years ago with Church Street Station, The Beacham, The Edge, Blue, Chillers, Fat Tuesday, Tanquerays, Janie Lane's, Roxy (not really downtown) and Firestone.  Some are still around but not as busy. There used to be thousands and thousands people out. I hated it at the time, but even Light Up Orlando was a hugh success for a long time. 

We can again thank the attractions for the change. Everything moved out to Downtown Disney & CityWalk. Downtown Orlando had its nightlife gutted. And it was all done for tourists. Nothing is done for locals. It's all about tourists.

Even the best restaurants in town are geared for tourists. Most cities have their best restaurants front-and-center downtown. Not Orlando. The restaurants downtown are less than impressive. Every city has outdoor cafes, some on much-largest scales. Other cities were doing microbreweries 25 years ago. Again, nothing unique.

If hanging out at a Wahlbergers makes you feel big-city, so be it. But there is nothing nice or unique or charming or sophisticated  about a freaking Wahlburgers (or Starbucks). Ask the people at Waterford Lakes.  If seeing police work a crime scene makes you feel big-city, fine. But I think you have a very skewed view of "urban."  If you think think running around Lake Eola is so unique, think of every city park in every other city.  Lake Eola is a 10th the size of many city parks. It's a lake. Let's not get carried away about it. 

So again, have some perspective. 

If you want to call me a troll, go for it. Doesn't bother me one bit.  But I'm not a suckass and not a pretender. 

And yes, Aspen does have a better social-scene than Orlando.

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I created a thread a while back on Orlando’s Metro largest publicly traded companies and currently 6 have revenues over 1 billion.  Most of them are timeshare which Orlando is the Wall Street of Time Shares, SEAS-sea world parent who has been declining for years, Tupperware which Is not growing,  and finally Darden. The other ones mentioned above are subsidiaries of other companies or private companies like Adventist.  

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4 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

 

14 minutes ago, idroveazamboni said:

I created a thread a while back on Orlando’s Metro largest publicly traded companies and currently 6 have revenues over 1 billion.  Most of them are timeshare which Orlando is the Wall Street of Time Shares, SEAS-sea world parent who has been declining for years, Tupperware which Is not growing,  and finally Darden. The other ones mentioned above are subsidiaries of other companies or private companies like Adventist.  

Abysmal.

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On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 12:20 PM, I am Reality said:

Apple and Comcast were nothing 15 years ago. These are not century-old companies like GE. They are not tethered forever to their cities. They are new.

Well... that's a bit misleading, which is typical for you.  As early as the early 90s Comcast was the US's 3rd largest cable company and by the mid-90s they were in the top 5 in the world.  They've been around for over 50 years, which is not a century, but still quite a while.

Also, while it is certainly correct that Apple went into the dumpster for the better part of the 90s, the company has existed for over 40 years (so yes, not a century old) and were quite successful from the late 70s until the dawn of the 90s.  Then started gaining steam again in the early 00s.

 

I'm just going to go with my opinion that you have a really weird axe to grind and love to troll, so I'm going to say "Peace out" on bothering to interact with you from this point on.

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28 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

Well... that's a bit misleading, which is typical for you.  As early as the early 90s Comcast was the US's 3rd largest cable company and by the mid-90s they were in the top 5 in the world.  They've been around for over 50 years, which is not a century, but still quite a while.

Also, while it is certainly correct that Apple went into the dumpster for the better part of the 90s, the company has existed for over 40 years (so yes, not a century old) and were quite successful from the late 70s until the dawn of the 90s.  Then started gaining steam again in the early 00s.

 

I'm just going to go with my opinion that you have a really weird axe to grind and love to troll, so I'm going to say "Peace out" on bothering to interact with you from this point on.

15 years ago, Apple stock was selling for $1.07 a share & Comcast was selling for $9 a share.

I'm pretty sure I can find several local companies trading at $1/share 15 years ago that failed.

I don't care if you interact with me or not. Stay blind and keep cheerleading.

 

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5 hours ago, I am Reality said:

I didn't raise the issue of Orlando's social-scene. Someone else did. But Orlando's image for nightlife is even worse than its image for Jobs. You are crazy if you think dowtown has a great nightlife or restaurants.  People get excited going out in Miami and NYC or Atlanta. Orlando, not so much.  (If you notice, I deliberately chose smaller cities or similar-sized cities in my previous post to show how stupid the argument is)

Seriously. Things were actually better here 30 years ago with Church Street Station, The Beacham, The Edge, Blue, Chillers, Fat Tuesday, Tanquerays, Janie Lane's, Roxy (not really downtown) and Firestone.  Some are still around but not as busy. There used to be thousands and thousands people out. I hated it at the time, but even Light Up Orlando was a hugh success for a long time. 

We can again thank the attractions for the change. Everything moved out to Downtown Disney & CityWalk. Downtown Orlando had its nightlife gutted. And it was all done for tourists. Nothing is done for locals. It's all about tourists.

Even the best restaurants in town are geared for tourists. Most cities have their best restaurants front-and-center downtown. Not Orlando. The restaurants downtown are less than impressive. Every city has outdoor cafes, some on much-largest scales. Other cities were doing microbreweries 25 years ago. Again, nothing unique.

If hanging out at a Wahlbergers makes you feel big-city, so be it. But there is nothing nice or unique or charming or sophisticated  about a freaking Wahlburgers (or Starbucks). Ask the people at Waterford Lakes.  If seeing police work a crime scene makes you feel big-city, fine. But I think you have a very skewed view of "urban."  If you think think running around Lake Eola is so unique, think of every city park in every other city.  Lake Eola is a 10th the size of many city parks. It's a lake. Let's not get carried away about it. 

So again, have some perspective. 

If you want to call me a troll, go for it. Doesn't bother me one bit.  But I'm not a suckass and not a pretender. 

And yes, Aspen does have a better social-scene than Orlando.

I was being sarcastic with the Wahlburgers example.  But, they did open a location in Downtown (and one in Waterford).  Well, there’s one in Philly too.  

Gene and Paul opened a  couple of Rock n Brews in Orlando too, but not downtown unfortunately.  On that note, there is one in SF, 2 in LA, one in St.L, and 2 in Orlando.

Tanqueray’s and Chillers are gone?  I’m pretty sure The Beacham is still active as a bar/club/venue; that’s Nejame’s place.  Firestone is still active. 

Hey, wait, I just Googled Tanqueray’s and they’re still open.  So is Chillers.  

When you say “Blue” do you mean “The Blue Room” that used to be on Pine St?  I didn’t even know Jani Lane’s Sunset Strip even existed.  No crap?

But...again, you are comparing Downtown Orlando to 1) Miami- CBD, Bayside, Brickell, Biscayne Blvd., or SoFi?  2)NYC- The Battery, Greenwich, Little Italy/Chinatown, Chelsea, Midtown, etc? 3). The ATL- CBD, Midtown, Buckhead?

Because, if you’re gonna be that general, you need to expand the search results to Orlando CBD, Winter Park, Sand Lake/ Restaurant Row, I-Drive, CItywalk, Diz Springs, etc., to be fair.

I’m not going to go through a roll call of all the eateries, bars, and stores currently in downtown, b/c there are a lot.  But 30 years ago was 1988, and, sure, downtown was hopping with CSS et al.  But a lot has changed since then.  The Exchange has been converted to offices; The Plaza replaced the Jaymont Block with office/condo/12 screen cinema/9-10 establishments within; 55W replaced the 2 story Jungle Jim’s plaza with Howl, etc.  But you’ve still got Rusty Spoon, SAK, Amura’s, etc. in those two buildings.  And those classic bars further down have been replaced by, what, Ferg’s Depot in the train station building, Hamburger Mary’s, Harry Buffalo’s, Ceviche, the Soccer bar, etc.  And, Amway has it’s two bars that are open during game night.  And, the Central Ave corridor got larger since then; 101 Eola and Sanctuary both house popular eateries/bars, as well as the buildings fronting Central.  And then there is the Summerlin/Washington St section with more bars and eateries.

I mentioned in another thread that because of Skyhouse and Crescent Central, there are at least 10 new businesses bookending the OCCthse that never existed before.  Wait until Radius opens.

And if you mention The Roxy off of Bennett, you might as well throw in all of downtown Baldwin Park and it’s offerings which didn’t exist back then which is closer to downtown than Roxy was.

But have you ever been to Third Thursday’s at City Arts and sister venues or Wine Down Wednesday’s at KASA?  I don’t think so, b/c if you had, you would see hundreds upon hundreds of patrons just at those two events alone.

Aspen is where richy riches go from CA to escape.  It’s a nice town with great scenery and nice parks.  But it’s not a realistic city to live in b/c of $$$.  

I think you need to be more fair in your comparisons.

BTW, CSP, the topic of this thread, is going to have either a rooftop bar/restaurant or one halfway up on the balcony.

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9 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

I was being sarcastic with the Wahlburgers example.  But, they did open a location in Downtown (and one in Waterford).  Well, there’s one in Philly too.  

Gene and Paul opened a  couple of Rock n Brews in Orlando too, but not downtown unfortunately.  On that note, there is one in SF, 2 in LA, one in St.L, and 2 in Orlando.

Tanqueray’s and Chillers are gone?  I’m pretty sure The Beacham is still active as a bar/club/venue; that’s Nejame’s place.  Firestone is still active. 

Hey, wait, I just Googled Tanqueray’s and they’re still open.  So is Chillers.  

When you say “Blue” do you mean “The Blue Room” that used to be on Pine St?  I didn’t even know Jani Lane’s Sunset Strip even existed.  No crap?

But...again, you are comparing Downtown Orlando to 1) Miami- CBD, Bayside, Brickell, Biscayne Blvd., or SoFi?  2)NYC- The Battery, Greenwich, Little Italy/Chinatown, Chelsea, Midtown, etc? 3). The ATL- CBD, Midtown, Buckhead?

Because, if you’re gonna be that general, you need to expand the search results to Orlando CBD, Winter Park, Sand Lake/ Restaurant Row, I-Drive, CItywalk, Diz Springs, etc., to be fair.

I’m not going to go through a roll call of all the eateries, bars, and stores currently in downtown, b/c there are a lot.  But 30 years ago was 1988, and, sure, downtown was hopping with CSS et al.  But a lot has changed since then.  The Exchange has been converted to offices; The Plaza replaced the Jaymont Block with office/condo/12 screen cinema/9-10 establishments within; 55W replaced the 2 story Jungle Jim’s plaza with Howl, etc.  But you’ve still got Rusty Spoon, SAK, Amura’s, etc. in those two buildings.  And those classic bars further down have been replaced by, what, Ferg’s Depot in the train station building, Hamburger Mary’s, Harry Buffalo’s, Ceviche, the Soccer bar, etc.  And, Amway has it’s two bars that are open during game night.  And, the Central Ave corridor got larger since then; 101 Eola and Sanctuary both house popular eateries/bars, as well as the buildings fronting Central.  And then there is the Summerlin/Washington St section with more bars and eateries.

I mentioned in another thread that because of Skyhouse and Crescent Central, there are at least 10 new businesses bookending the OCCthse that never existed before.  Wait until Radius opens.

And if you mention The Roxy off of Bennett, you might as well throw in all of downtown Baldwin Park and it’s offerings which didn’t exist back then which is closer to downtown than Roxy was.

But have you ever been to Third Thursday’s at City Arts and sister venues or Wine Down Wednesday’s at KASA?  I don’t think so, b/c if you had, you would see hundreds upon hundreds of patrons just at those two events alone.

Aspen is where richy riches go from CA to escape.  It’s a nice town with great scenery and nice parks.  But it’s not a realistic city to live in b/c of $$$.  

I think you need to be more fair in your comparisons.

BTW, CSP, the topic of this thread, is going to have either a rooftop bar/restaurant or one halfway up on the balcony.

Yes, the Blue Room. Great place. Small, but my personal favorite.  There was also a great live jazz club called the Blue Note on Orange. I used to work in the Exchange and the place used to be crazy. Downtown used to be amazing.  Firestone was named the best club in the U.S. about 20-25 years ago. Crowds downtown now are a fraction of what they used to be. I am actually complimenting downtown back then. It was great...before Disney & Universal stole everything. That is my point - we are better off growing organically without them. 

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1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

Yes, the Blue Room. Great place. Small, but my personal favorite.  There was also a great live jazz club called the Blue Note on Orange. I used to work in the Exchange and the place used to be crazy. Downtown used to be amazing.  Firestone was named the best club in the U.S. about 20-25 years ago. Crowds downtown now are a fraction of what they used to be. I am actually complimenting downtown back then. It was great...before Disney & Universal stole everything. That is my point - we are better off growing organically without them. 

I agree.  But Downtown is making a comeback.  It's had it's ups and downs accounting for the recession for sure, and is still chugging right along.  Casey's is gone too I think.

I think I get you now.  You feel that too much focus has been placed on tourism and not enough on building more of a corporate presence here independent of the tourist industry.

Perhaps.  I haven't done or read any economic studies on what companies have come here because of tourism, or because of an influx of immigrants from overseas because of tourism.  But there have been some positive business moves discussed in other threads in recent years.  I know GOAA has been pushing hard pushing for new direct routes to OIA.  I know Seminole has really been pushing hard., and Osceola as of late.  As for downtown, Creative Village and the Soccer stadium, DPAC, and Amway and the renovated Citrus Bowl are the main things I've seen the past 8-10 years.  And a bunch of new residential and mixed use residential as well, which is always a huge plus.

And to keep it in perspective, from the '60's to the '90's, the only other large US city other than NYC with a large downtown residential population was Chicago.  That helped Chi-town tremendously to keep developing consistently downtown.  Orlando is getting those residential units.  It may not have the corporate HQ's, but the live work climate in downtown is good and keeps growing.  That's one of the things companies look for in relocating offices.  That can't be ignored.

 

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1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

Yes, the Blue Room. Great place. Small, but my personal favorite.  There was also a great live jazz club called the Blue Note on Orange. I used to work in the Exchange and the place used to be crazy. Downtown used to be amazing.  Firestone was named the best club in the U.S. about 20-25 years ago. Crowds downtown now are a fraction of what they used to be. I am actually complimenting downtown back then. It was great...before Disney & Universal stole everything. That is my point - we are better off growing organically without them. 

If you worked in The Exchange, then we might have crossed paths once or twice because I worked there too, for about a year. 

And yes, downtown was "amazing" back then in terms of crowds of people on the streets every night... during the summer tourist season that is. Because they used to bring them up from Disney and I-Drive by the busload in package deals that included admission to CSS, then they'd head out to explore the rest of downtown before going back to their hotels. 

But after summer vacation ended, it became a much quieter scene. And though the crowds we get downtown now might be somewhat smaller, they're still pretty decent and consist mainly of locals, many of them downtown residents. Something that barely existed back in the 90's. And that is a real improvement.

You can thank Downtown Disney and Universal City Walk for ending the crowds of tourists on Church St and Orange Ave though. That was done intentionally because they saw all the after hours $$$ they were losing.

Aside from all that, we all understand quite well that downtown Orlando has a lot of catching up to do. We don't need you to "educate us" on that. But truthfully, not all of us are really even interested in it becoming as big as you falsely claim we all want it to. Most of us have expressed on numerous occasions over the years, that we'd rather downtown Orlando maintain it's somewhat smaller scale.

Why? 

Because the old, smaller Orlando had it's own irreplaceable small town charm and those of us who've been around awhile, don't want to see it all disappear in a jungle of cold, massive concrete towers.

You, not having lived here very long, and probably not remembering the old Orlando of decades past, probably wouldn't understand that.

If anyone here seems to be hung up on size, it's you my friend.

One can only wonder what might be the cause of that. :whistling:

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2 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Yes, the Blue Room. Great place. Small, but my personal favorite.  There was also a great live jazz club called the Blue Note on Orange. I used to work in the Exchange and the place used to be crazy. Downtown used to be amazing.  Firestone was named the best club in the U.S. about 20-25 years ago. Crowds downtown now are a fraction of what they used to be. I am actually complimenting downtown back then. It was great...before Disney & Universal stole everything. That is my point - we are better off growing organically without them. 

Wait - you think Downtown doesn't have a good bar scene? Really? Have you seen how packed it is every weekend? If there's an event - which there is almost every weekend - it's even busier.  Locals in Miami don't go to South Beach - they go to Wynwood or Coconut Grove - which are no bigger than Orlando's Downtown scene - they're quite similar actually. 

There does need to be more quality restaurants downtown - we have a few but there definitely is room for some more.  

I would say you're trolling here but your posts are wayyy too long to just be messing around. I honestly don't know where your views are coming from. 

 

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You people are OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLDDDDDDDDDD!

Hahaha. 

NTTAWWT. . . getting there myself. . .

Edited by dcluley98
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