Economic Development

[AmIReal]

Not a troll. New member that has followed the forum for several years. I thought I could provide some insight into the question that was posed as to "why Orlando was passed over".  New job generation is not an open free for all for every region to woo.  These particular jobs were destined to the location they chose primarily because they were already located there. It wasn't an Orlando loss as much as it was a DNP-CD (did not play- coaches decision).

[I am Reality]

On 3/30/2018 at 10:20 AM, AmIReal said:

Why is Orlando getting passed over? 

Austin- Merck! Heck yeah, that is a great get. I'd love to have them here. This deal was announced over a year ago and the main reason Austin was chosen was the Dell Medical School program and their ties to Merck’s mission. The $7 million from the State and City didn’t hurt.

Memphis- SYNNEX is a CA  based company and has had a  MS facility for over a decade. This is a "relocation" of their present location about 30 minutes up the road. The old building is being converted to manufacturing. The TVA, MDA, both cities involved, the county, the state and Entargy are providing financial assistance for the expansion.

Tampa- Airfoil. Chromeallay (a Sequa company, owned by The Carlyle Group) is out of West Palm and this project was definitely going to be in the I-4 corridor (out of state locations weren't really considered even if the Gov said otherwise). Chromally already had 2 plants operating in the Tampa area so locating this joint venture there made sense. Tampa Hillsborough EDC, the county, Florida Dept of Economic Opportunity, Enterprise Florida and the FHTCC put together the tax assistance package and it didn't hurt that a military base (primary customer) was in the neighborhood. BTW, Siemens has locations throughout the I-4 corridor from Space Coast to Bay Area including half a dozen (nearly 4000 employees) here in Orlando.

Denver- Xactly is CA based, but already had a sizable location in Denver. Xactly was acquired last year by Vista Equity Partners who happens to be located in... wait for it... Denver (that would be R. Smith of Vista EP, who drove this expansion and has done the same with several of his other holdings). Xactly gets an $11 million package from the city to make the expansion and stroke the new investors ego. Bingo...!!!

Las Vegas- Scientific Games is a gambling company. I think Vegas was a good strategic decision on their part.

Las Vegas- Cascade FinTech’s only location, to the best of my knowledge, is in Vegas. It makes sense to hire new employees there.

I actually applaud you for giving a real answer to my question.  You didn't give the same tired excuses (newness, MSA, people-just-don't-know-how-great-it-is-here).

Unfortunately, the evidence doesn't support your argument.  

Austin was not "destined" to be selected for the Merck Innovation Center (as you suggested in your second post)   -    "An Austin official said the firm's search includes more than 50 other cities." (Austin American-Statesman, March 31, 2017).

Merck has no existing relationship with the Dell Medical School. -    "The potential partnership between Merck and the Dell Medical School is a testament that qualities of Austin as a place for investment and health care delivery."  (Austin  American-Statesman, July 17, 2017).

You misconstrued Merck's comments on the company's "mission" being consistent with the Dell Medical School's "mission".  The complete quote is Merck's mission "aligns with the University of Texas, Central Health, People's Community Clinic and many other groups that could support the transformation of health care delivery and affordability."

The "mission" is the same for literally every hospital and medical school in the world.  Merck was just being complimentary. The exact same thing could be said about any other medical facility globally.  If a hospital or medical school is NOT committed to innovation and affordability, it quite frankly doesn't deserve to be open.

Merck does not already have a large workforce in Austin.  Merck currently has only 10 job openings in Austin.  By comparison, it has 6 job openings in Orlando.

So it was not written in the stars.  There clearly a reason Merck picked Austin.  Perhaps those include:  a better business & tech environment; a better workforce; a better education system; better hospitals; more corporate presence (notice it's the DELL Medical School); better cultural environment. 

As for the Sieman's joint-venture:  Chromealloy and Siemans  both have literally dozens of facilities worldwide.  The new facility could have been built anywhere.  Tampa did not have any advantage over anyone else.  This was not an expansion of an existing facility.  It is a brand-new joint-venture.

As for SYNNEX, I understand that is was already located in suburban Memphis.  Of course any new jobs at the company would be located there.  My point was:  Why is it located there to begin with, as opposed to here or elsewhere?

I honestly like your response (and your name).  I am a big believer there is a reason for everything.  Remember the old Amazon HQ section here?  Before Amazon ruled out Orlando, everyone thought Orlando had a legitimate chance of getting the HQ2.  After Amazon didn't put us in the Final 20, everyone made lame excuses.  Like transit - probably the easiest criteria to fix (especially with a $5 billion local investment on the line).   Lots of people argued the city leaders didnt put together a strong incentives package. We don't know what they offered.  It's a totally speculative argument to make.  

Something else was at work.  We can deflect from the real problems to fit our preconceived opinions. Or we can diagnose the problem and fix them. 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by I am Reality

[aent]

4 hours ago, I am Reality said:

[...]  I am a big believer there is a reason for everything.  Remember the old Amazon HQ section here?  Before Amazon ruled out Orlando, everyone thought Orlando had a legitimate chance of getting the HQ2.  After Amazon didn't put us in the Final 20, everyone made lame excuses.  Like transit - probably the easiest criteria to fix (especially with a $5 billion local investment on the line).   Lots of people argued the city leaders didnt put together a strong incentives package. We don't know what they offered.  It's a totally speculative argument to make.  

Something else was at work.  We can deflect from the real problems to fit our preconceived opinions. Or we can diagnose the problem and fix them. 

 

 

I'll bite. Why was something else at work and not the reasons we discussed here? Things like transit have proven NOT to be easy to fix... projects are proposed all the time, and then cancelled. Amazon was quite clear they were interested in whats there, built, ready to go, they weren't interested in a promise that it would be built if they got Amazon. Because Amazon knows that after they start to build, problems with a transit line could come up and the project could get cancelled. It could even be beyond the city's control, an eminent domain lawsuit that stops the transit line in its place. We also don't know all of the variables Amazon used to pick their top 20, or where Orlando placed (as far as you know, it could have been choice #21). We literally diagnosed some problems (and I agree, we haven't fixed them at this point, we can't quite do that on this forum)

[I am Reality]

5 hours ago, aent said:

I'll bite. Why was something else at work and not the reasons we discussed here? Things like transit have proven NOT to be easy to fix... projects are proposed all the time, and then cancelled. Amazon was quite clear they were interested in whats there, built, ready to go, they weren't interested in a promise that it would be built if they got Amazon. Because Amazon knows that after they start to build, problems with a transit line could come up and the project could get cancelled. It could even be beyond the city's control, an eminent domain lawsuit that stops the transit line in its place. We also don't know all of the variables Amazon used to pick their top 20, or where Orlando placed (as far as you know, it could have been choice #21). We literally diagnosed some problems (and I agree, we haven't fixed them at this point, we can't quite do that on this forum)

Orlando has a commuter train that runs downtown already.  Amazon is looking at sites in the urban cores of finalist-cities.  People may not use it much (or even like it), but a downtown Orlando train already exists.

If Amazon had selected Orlando, improvements - like a direct shuttle to the new downtown train station - would have been easy to make. Orlando has already planned for 2 additional expansions of SunRail.  The first leg Is shovel-ready if finding comes through.  No eminent domain problems.

Several Amazon HQ2 finalists have NO commuter trains or light rail.  Indianapolis, Nashville, Columbus and Raleigh come to mind (without looking at the list of other finalists). 

You are correct. Orlando could have been #21 in the Amazon list. I take no solace being #21 in anything.  There is only one winner.  Orlando will not be it.  Orlando also could have also been number #50 on the list.  We'll never know.

Again, I suggest re-reading the posts in the Amazon HQ section.  People honestly thought Orlando had a legitimate shot and then made excuses after we were eliminated.  

It seems to me that we overestimated Orlando's standing among other cities.  I recall sometime comparing Harvard to UCF (I think it was in the computer science context).  Sorry...but let's be real.  Most top-notch companies will hire the Harvard grad over the UCF grad.  In the case of Boston, Orlando was not just completing with Harvard.  It was competing with MIT (perhaps the best tech school the world), BC, Brandeis, UMASS, Tufts, Suffolk, BU, and nearby Brown (Ivy League).  Again, I did not make the comparison.  Someone else did.

Amazon (and Oracle, Merck, & Facebook) clearly has a different perception of Orlando than the readers of this forum.  

[spenser1058]

Sadly, one of our most prosperous homegrown companies has been purchased.

Mears Transportation, one of the biggest contributors to Valencia over the years, will cede majority control to a South Florida company.

Just like with Hughes Supply and Darden before it, we're supposed to be proud that these local firms have been so successful that out of towners want them. The problem comes in when their community leadership (financial and otherwise) slips away.

As Linton Allen, one of the pillars at First National Bank at Orlando (one of the founding banks of SunTrust) observed, "Build your community and you build your bank." The reverse is also very true.

Mears investors to compete nationally with ride-share cabs
http://bit.ly/2Gu9IF3

From the Sentinel

[aent]

5 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Orlando has a commuter train that runs downtown already.  Amazon is looking at sites in the urban cores of finalist-cities.  People may not use it much (or even like it), but a downtown Orlando train already exists.

If Amazon had selected Orlando, improvements - like a direct shuttle to the new downtown train station - would have been easy to make. Orlando has already planned for 2 additional expansions of SunRail.  The first leg Is shovel-ready if finding comes through.  No eminent domain problems.

Several Amazon HQ2 finalists have NO commuter trains or light rail.  Indianapolis, Nashville, Columbus and Raleigh come to mind (without looking at the list of other finalists). 

You are correct. Orlando could have been #21 in the Amazon list. I take no solace being #21 in anything.  There is only one winner.  Orlando will not be it.  Orlando also could have also been number #50 on the list.  We'll never know.

Again, I suggest re-reading the posts in the Amazon HQ section.  People honestly thought Orlando had a legitimate shot and then made excuses after we were eliminated.  

It seems to me that we overestimated Orlando's standing among other cities.  I recall sometime comparing Harvard to UCF (I think it was in the computer science context).  Sorry...but let's be real.  Most top-notch companies will hire the Harvard grad over the UCF grad.  In the case of Boston, Orlando was not just completing with Harvard.  It was competing with MIT (perhaps the best tech school the world), BC, Brandeis, UMASS, Tufts, Suffolk, BU, and nearby Brown (Ivy League).  Again, I did not make the comparison.  Someone else did.

Amazon (and Oracle, Merck, & Facebook) clearly has a different perception of Orlando than the readers of this forum.  

Nobody thought Orlando was a shoe in for the Amazon HQ, just a possibility. Tech is a growing industry and Florida, overall, for whatever reason, is generally weak in it, but from what I've heard, Orlando is top of the state at least for it.

Orlando is never going to be about it downtown, thats a simple fact, its now how Orlando grew, its not the strong point, and the downtown is just something to support those who want that lifestyle for the rest of the MSA. And Orlando, like the rest of the Florida cities, is unlikely to be #1 in tech. We may have our niche markets where we are top class within tech (simulation, gaming, space, etc), and trying to become #1 or even top 5 in the whole class is futile. We have to choose our niches and just try to expand, get what we can.

Orlando's the #1 for vacation destination. Thats an area we are dominating, people want to come here and vacation here, and we need to keep that in mind, take advantage of that, and expand from there.

[AmIReal]

Thanks for the positive comments, I Am Reality. After reading your post I was going to leave it at that as I didn’t want to get into a petty back and forth. But then I saw you comment in a different topic about your line for line rebuttal of my post… To everyone else on the forum, please feel free to stop reading now and I promise none of my future post will be this long.

I’ll begin with I don’t disagree with your assertion that there are some underlying deficiencies in the local economy. This has been noted by many other community builders and believe it or not a lot has gone on to address said issues. Also, I have no idea what profession you are in or your history, but I know my past experience was executive level in technology throughout the US and I was involved in several relocation and expansion projects. I later consulted with local governments and economic development entities on development of technology clusters. A major takeaway that I’d pass along to you and anybody who follows economic news is don’t read too much into the press release quotes, such as the ones you cited from the Statesman. This is even more important if the story involves incentive deals.

Typically, though not always, whoever is being quoted is trying to convince their constituency how great a project is and that the amount of incentive is pennies to the millions it will return. Their constituencies, particularly in certain states and communities, view all incentive packages as welfare to corporations and boondoggles. A better place to look is in the tax filings, RFPs issued to municipalities and details of incentive packages.

I agree I was not clear about the two entities missions aligning, but I assure you I did not base my comment on the stated mission of the hospital. I view those in the same category as press releases. I based it on the incentive request package from Merck which btw refers to the innovation hub as an IT hub- that is an important distinction. When Merck first began this process with Austin, the very first class of the Dell Med school was still in their first year. They didn’t choose Austin for the med school. They made Austin their choice because of the critical mass of technology talent Austin has combined with Dell’s technology around digital health. They said so in the package they submitted.

I know the various spokespeople said the search involved 50 other cities, and I’m sure that is possible though improbable. My discussions with friends in the industry only turned up five other cities. Although they kicked the tires on Boston and VA it did not go far, likely due to the proximity to their other IT hub in NJ. Chicago, SF and LA were all discussed, but I think the readily available building and the final incentive package pushed the choice to Austin- that is conjecture on my part. I concede there were likely other contenders cities involved, but they appear to have been cursory looks.

So, when I say they were destined to that location, I do not mean they had pre-chosen it. I mean several unique qualifiers led them to Austin- geography, talent pool, Dell, incentives, taxes, real estate, etc. When you say something is wrong with Orlando it doesn’t seem to acknowledge the fact that every other MSA also does not have the unique qualifiers for this particular project.

While I do not have any insight into the Merck situation other than what I read and discussions with colleagues, I do have a more insight into Advanced Airfoil. You might be aware of this, but this arrangement is not a new business to go out and sell product to other companies. This is a newly created company in which in which one partner, Chromeally will manufacture and sell exclusively to the other partner Siemens.

Also, just because they each have locations scattered around the world doesn’t mean they would consider all of them. To begin with, they stated they wanted to limit the search to the south. And since Chromeally’s plant in Tampa already operates a casting foundry and produces cores and parts comparable to what will be needed for this project it made sense to not rebuild the wheel elsewhere. If the costs issue was equal then doing this project anywhere else would have been a bad idea. The only hold up was if the State would come through with incentives, which they did. Here is good article from the site selection guy… https://www.businessobserverfl.com/article/hitting-gas

Synnex is a wholesaler of technology components (although they did get into designing, building, installing and consulting). The Memphis location is a distribution hub. One of the stated goals is expedited delivery of product. This office is located 20 minutes from FedEx. Again, I call that destined… I may be using the wrong term.

As I said before, the reason I created an account after a few years of lurking was to provide some insight to site selection for relocation and expansion and to dispel the notion that if every new job opportunity did not locate in Orlando it was due to some latent defect in the community. I hope this has been somewhat helpful.

I Am Reality, you seem to have a genuine interest in job growth and enhancement of the local economy. I recommend you look into the Orlando Economic Partnership https://orlandoedc.com/home.aspx They are the face forward organization for attracting relocating and expanding businesses. The other side of the equation is developing growth within out entrepreneurial community. The best source for that is certainly UCF and in particular the incubator programs https://incubator.ucf.edu/ If you are not currently involved/ invested in one of the above or something like it, I suggest you consider it.

Halftime is over- I’m going back to the game.

[I am Reality]

8 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Thanks for the positive comments, I Am Reality. After reading your post I was going to leave it at that as I didn’t want to get into a petty back and forth. But then I saw you comment in a different topic about your line for line rebuttal of my post… To everyone else on the forum, please feel free to stop reading now and I promise none of my future post will be this long.

I’ll begin with I don’t disagree with your assertion that there are some underlying deficiencies in the local economy. This has been noted by many other community builders and believe it or not a lot has gone on to address said issues. Also, I have no idea what profession you are in or your history, but I know my past experience was executive level in technology throughout the US and I was involved in several relocation and expansion projects. I later consulted with local governments and economic development entities on development of technology clusters. A major takeaway that I’d pass along to you and anybody who follows economic news is don’t read too much into the press release quotes, such as the ones you cited from the Statesman. This is even more important if the story involves incentive deals.

Typically, though not always, whoever is being quoted is trying to convince their constituency how great a project is and that the amount of incentive is pennies to the millions it will return. Their constituencies, particularly in certain states and communities, view all incentive packages as welfare to corporations and boondoggles. A better place to look is in the tax filings, RFPs issued to municipalities and details of incentive packages.

I agree I was not clear about the two entities missions aligning, but I assure you I did not base my comment on the stated mission of the hospital. I view those in the same category as press releases. I based it on the incentive request package from Merck which btw refers to the innovation hub as an IT hub- that is an important distinction. When Merck first began this process with Austin, the very first class of the Dell Med school was still in their first year. They didn’t choose Austin for the med school. They made Austin their choice because of the critical mass of technology talent Austin has combined with Dell’s technology around digital health. They said so in the package they submitted.

I know the various spokespeople said the search involved 50 other cities, and I’m sure that is possible though improbable. My discussions with friends in the industry only turned up five other cities. Although they kicked the tires on Boston and VA it did not go far, likely due to the proximity to their other IT hub in NJ. Chicago, SF and LA were all discussed, but I think the readily available building and the final incentive package pushed the choice to Austin- that is conjecture on my part. I concede there were likely other contenders cities involved, but they appear to have been cursory looks.

So, when I say they were destined to that location, I do not mean they had pre-chosen it. I mean several unique qualifiers led them to Austin- geography, talent pool, Dell, incentives, taxes, real estate, etc. When you say something is wrong with Orlando it doesn’t seem to acknowledge the fact that every other MSA also does not have the unique qualifiers for this particular project.

While I do not have any insight into the Merck situation other than what I read and discussions with colleagues, I do have a more insight into Advanced Airfoil. You might be aware of this, but this arrangement is not a new business to go out and sell product to other companies. This is a newly created company in which in which one partner, Chromeally will manufacture and sell exclusively to the other partner Siemens.

Also, just because they each have locations scattered around the world doesn’t mean they would consider all of them. To begin with, they stated they wanted to limit the search to the south. And since Chromeally’s plant in Tampa already operates a casting foundry and produces cores and parts comparable to what will be needed for this project it made sense to not rebuild the wheel elsewhere. If the costs issue was equal then doing this project anywhere else would have been a bad idea. The only hold up was if the State would come through with incentives, which they did. Here is good article from the site selection guy… https://www.businessobserverfl.com/article/hitting-gas

Synnex is a wholesaler of technology components (although they did get into designing, building, installing and consulting). The Memphis location is a distribution hub. One of the stated goals is expedited delivery of product. This office is located 20 minutes from FedEx. Again, I call that destined… I may be using the wrong term.

As I said before, the reason I created an account after a few years of lurking was to provide some insight to site selection for relocation and expansion and to dispel the notion that if every new job opportunity did not locate in Orlando it was due to some latent defect in the community. I hope this has been somewhat helpful.

I Am Reality, you seem to have a genuine interest in job growth and enhancement of the local economy. I recommend you look into the Orlando Economic Partnership https://orlandoedc.com/home.aspx They are the face forward organization for attracting relocating and expanding businesses. The other side of the equation is developing growth within out entrepreneurial community. The best source for that is certainly UCF and in particular the incubator programs https://incubator.ucf.edu/ If you are not currently involved/ invested in one of the above or something like it, I suggest you consider it.

Halftime is over- I’m going back to the game.

We actually agree on more things than we diasgree about.  I won't go point-by-point this time.  But you make some good points. 

I agree that Austin offers a unique situation for tech companies. I honestly hope Orlando can learn from it, because Austin is completely overperforming where it should be.  

As for me, I too have a professional background and have lived in many different places.  I have lived in Orlando longer than anywhere else.  So I call it my hometown. I lived here before and moved back. I have love for this city.  But I find that most people in this forum have crazy delusions of grandeur about Orlando.  It's great that people love it.  But most people can't see past that to think objectively about it.  Many seen to young to really know there are completely different ways of living elsewhere.

I don't care about anything but high-wage jobs.  And Orlando is known across the country as having a "Micky Mouse" economy (literally and figuratively). My profession pretty severely underperforms in Orlando, as do many others.  

My argument has always been - if we had more high-wage jobs, we would have more downtown development, better transit options, more bars/restaurants, better schools from a higher tax-base, etc.  I've said it before...you want a better cultural environment?  It takes expendable cash. And I see ALOT of people here struggling to get by.  Other cities have pockets of severe poverty, but they are balanced out my huge areas of unbelievable wealth. I don't see that here.  

Everyone seems proud of Park Avenue, right?  Park Avenue is maybe 6 or 7 blocks long.  I've lived in places where Park Avenue-like areas extend for 20+ miles.  Now that is prosperity!  People who have never traveled would think we are so lucky to have Park Avenue, not knowing what true prosperity is.

I want that for Orlando.  Not more tourist crap that has proven to be a dead-end economically.  One of my first posts was on a Sentinel article about how Orlando has the lowest average wages of the largest 50 metros. Everyone disagreed with me. Some said they don't believe it.  Others said that the Sentinel has an agenda. I couldn't believe it.  Just look around!  People honestly didn't believe their was even a problem.  I was floored!

 

.

[bqknight]

38 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

We actually agree on more things than we diasgree about.  I won't go point-by-point this time.  But you make some good points. 

I agree that Austin offers a unique situation for tech companies. I honestly hope Orlando can learn from it, because Austin is completely overperforming where it should be.  

As for me, I too have a professional background and have lived in many different places.  I have lived in Orlando longer than anywhere else.  So I call it my hometown. I lived here before and moved back. I have love for this city.  But I find that most people in this forum have crazy delusions of grandeur about Orlando.  It's great that people love it.  But most people can't see past that to think objectively about it.  Many seen to young to really know there are completely different ways of living elsewhere.

I don't care about anything but high-wage jobs.  And Orlando is known across the country as having a "Micky Mouse" economy (literally and figuratively). My profession pretty severely underperforms in Orlando, as do many others.  

My argument has always been - if we had more high-wage jobs, we would have more downtown development, better transit options, more bars/restaurants, better schools from a higher tax-base, etc.  I've said it before...you want a better cultural environment?  It takes expendable cash. And I see ALOT of people here struggling to get by.  Other cities have pockets of severe poverty, but they are balanced out my huge areas of unbelievable wealth. I don't see that here.  

Everyone seems proud of Park Avenue, right?  Park Avenue is maybe 6 or 7 blocks long.  I've lived in places where Park Avenue-like areas extend for 20+ miles.  Now that is prosperity!  People who have never traveled would think we are so lucky to have Park Avenue, not knowing what true prosperity is.

I want that for Orlando.  Not more tourist crap that has proven to be a dead-end economically.  One of my first posts was on a Sentinel article about how Orlando has the lowest average wages of the largest 50 metros. Everyone disagreed with me. Some said they don't believe it.  Others said that the Sentinel has an agenda. I couldn't believe it.  Just look around!  People honestly didn't believe their was even a problem.  I was floored!

 

.

So...you get upset that people call you out for things and then turn around and pretty much say we're all naive, untravelled individuals who have no outside knowledge of the world. 

Okayyyy buddy. 

BTW - Park Avenue for 20+ miles - well, hot dang, I would love to know where you have found a shopping and restaurant strip that runs for 20+ miles.  

[spenser1058]

Didn't he also say he was an attorney in a previous post? Interestingly, one of the fields where Orlando outperformed the norm in a recent study was.... attorneys. I'm obviously missing something or something's not adding up.

[I am Reality]

47 minutes ago, bqknight said:

So...you get upset that people call you out for things and then turn around and pretty much say we're all naive, untravelled individuals who have no outside knowledge of the world. 

Okayyyy buddy. 

BTW - Park Avenue for 20+ miles - well, hot dang, I would love to know where you have found a shopping and restaurant strip that runs for 20+ miles.  

Many suburbs up North, New England and some out West look like Park Avenue (or, on a larger scale, downtown Deland).

It's really not unusual.

I think that addresses the rest of your comments.

(By the way, I never said you have a mental disease, did I?   Didn't think so)

36 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Didn't he also say he was an attorney in a previous post? Interestingly, one of the fields where Orlando outperformed the norm in a recent study was.... attorneys. I'm obviously missing something or something's not adding up.

I am an attorney.  The last time I mentioned that, people criticized me for it.  I have never seen statistics about attorneys around here.  I have practiced law in multiple places.  From experience, the Orlando legal community is not big compared to its population.   I'd be interested to see the statistics you are talking about.  Please link.  Thanks.

Edited April 3, 2018 by I am Reality

[I am Reality]

20 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Many suburbs up North, New England and some out West look like Park Avenue (or, on a larger scale, downtown Deland).

It's really not unusual.

I think that addresses the rest of your comments.

(By the way, I never said you have a mental disease, did I?   Didn't think so)

I am an attorney.  The last time I mentioned that, people criticized me for it.  I have never seen statistics about attorneys around here.  I have practiced law in multiple places.  From experience, the Orlando legal community is not big compared to its population.   I'd be interested to see the statistics you are talking about.  Please link.  Thanks.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics just released attorney-jobs statistics 4 days ago.  Orlando is not in the Top 10 cities with the highest concentrations of attorneys.  Florida has 3 in the Top 10 - Miami, Tallahassee and West Palm Beach.  

No Orlando.

No other statistics are available.

Edited April 3, 2018 by I am Reality

[I am Reality]

8 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

The Bureau of Labor Statistics just released attorney-jobs statistics 4 days ago.  Orlando is not in the Top 10 cities with the highest concentrations of attorneys.  Florida has 3 in the Top 10 - Miami, Tallahassee and West Palm Beach.  

No Orlando.

No other statistics are available.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics report actually has a national map showing "location quotion."  That is defined as the ratio of the local % of attorney conceentation compared to the national average.  The "location quoting" is divided into 5 groups.  We are in the 3rd group.

[AmIReal]

I'm not certain, but spenser1058 may have been alluding to this Brookings study which indicates the Orlando area legal field out performed expectations by 1.7% You have to select the MSA and the time frame from the drop down menu. The newest data is 2015.

https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/metro-monitor-2017-dashboard/

 

[I am Reality]

55 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

I'm not certain, but spenser1058 may have been alluding to this Brookings study which indicates the Orlando area legal field out performed expectations by 1.7% You have to select the MSA and the time frame from the drop down menu. The newest data is 2015.

https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/metro-monitor-2017-dashboard/

 

That is an interesting study. Thanks for posting.

A few comments:

The study says that GROWTH in Orlando's "legal services" industry is outperforming other cities by 1.1%.  It is not saying Orlando's concentration of lawyers is 1.1% higher than average. 

The study also considers "legal services", rather than attorneys.  That would include legal secretaries, paralegals, file clerks, copy clerks, marketers, etc.

Last, the study also says the "expected growth" in "legal services" would DECREASE in Orlando. The population is clearly growing and the study's own findings said the overall jobs growth-rate is 4.2%.  There is something wrong if the study predicted a net decrease in legal jobs.

 

[bqknight]

2 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Many suburbs up North, New England and some out West look like Park Avenue (or, on a larger scale, downtown Deland).

It's really not unusual.

I think that addresses the rest of your comments.

(By the way, I never said you have a mental disease, did I?   Didn't think so)

I am an attorney.  The last time I mentioned that, people criticized me for it.  I have never seen statistics about attorneys around here.  I have practiced law in multiple places.  From experience, the Orlando legal community is not big compared to its population.   I'd be interested to see the statistics you are talking about.  Please link.  Thanks.

Cause that's the architectural style up North. That doesn't mean they a 20 mile stretch of Park Avenue quality restaurants and shops. 

It's like you think Orlando should be in the Top 10 for everything in this country. That's completely unrealistic and just sets you up to look at things with the pessimistic, warped view you seem to have. Orlando is a NEW city that is rapidly growing and making strides in many of these things you keep harping on about. We aren't NYC, Chicago, Atlanta or even some of these other cities you reference so frequently. 

[I am Reality]

5 minutes ago, bqknight said:

Cause that's the architectural style up North. That doesn't mean they a 20 mile stretch of Park Avenue quality restaurants and shops. 

It's like you think Orlando should be in the Top 10 for everything in this country. That's completely unrealistic and just sets you up to look at things with the pessimistic, warped view you seem to have. Orlando is a NEW city that is rapidly growing and making strides in many of these things you keep harping on about. We aren't NYC, Chicago, Atlanta or even some of these other cities you reference so frequently. 

I said nothing about architecture.  I was talking about restaurant & shopping. 

I can't really argue with you if you haven't seen it.

It's actually more common than not.  Very unusual for Florida.  Very common elsewhere.  And yes, some are 20+ miles long. 

[I am Reality]

23 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I said nothing about architecture.  I was talking about restaurant & shopping. 

I can't really argue with you if you haven't seen it.

It's actually more common than not.  Very unusual for Florida.  Very common elsewhere.  And yes, some are 20+ miles long. 

 

33 minutes ago, bqknight said:

Cause that's the architectural style up North. That doesn't mean they a 20 mile stretch of Park Avenue quality restaurants and shops. 

It's like you think Orlando should be in the Top 10 for everything in this country. That's completely unrealistic and just sets you up to look at things with the pessimistic, warped view you seem to have. Orlando is a NEW city that is rapidly growing and making strides in many of these things you keep harping on about. We aren't NYC, Chicago, Atlanta or even some of these other cities you reference so frequently. 

Since I am on lunch...

Annapolis 

Alexandria 

New Hope, PA 

Lambertville 

Cheatnut Hill

Mainline Philadelphia 

Cape May

Princeton

Belmar, NJ

Providencetown

Nantucket

Block Island 

Burlington, VT

Chester, CN

Mystic 

Portsmith, NH

Bar Harbor, ME

Woodstock, VT

Bridgefield. CN

New Canaan, CT

Saratoga Springs 

Stauton, VA

Charleston

Charlottesville

Steamboat Springs, CO 

Ft. Collins, CO

Carmel, CA

Santa Cruz, CA

Salinas, CA

Venice, CA

Santa Monica, CA

Miami Beach 

Amelia Island 

St. Augustine

I am sure there are many more...but those are the ones I personally have been to (and that I can remember quickly).

Winter Park did not invent the restaurant/shopping scene. 

 

 

[prahaboheme]

29 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

 

Since I am on lunch...

Annapolis 

Alexandria 

New Hope, PA 

Lambertville 

Cheatnut Hill

Mainline Philadelphia 

Cape May

Princeton

Belmar, NJ

Providencetown

Nantucket

Block Island 

Burlington, VT

Chester, CN

Mystic 

Portsmith, NH

Bar Harbor, ME

Woodstock, VT

Bridgefield. CN

New Canaan, CT

Saratoga Springs 

Stauton, VA

Charleston

Charlottesville

Steamboat Springs, CO 

Ft. Collins, CO

Carmel, CA

Santa Cruz, CA

Salinas, CA

Venice, CA

Santa Monica, CA

Miami Beach 

Amelia Island 

St. Augustine

I am sure there are many more...but those are the ones I personally have been to (and that I can remember quickly).

Winter Park did not invent the restaurant/shopping scene. 

 

 

Not a single one of these places extend for 20 miles (or even 10). 

Get it together, Heather!

(btw, its Provincetown, not Providencetown... no worries though, this is a pretty common mistake for those not well traveled)

Edited April 3, 2018 by prahaboheme

[spenser1058]

Since we seem to be going for the Biff & Buffy crowd in that list, may I note that Winter Park made the cut for the original Preppy Handbook back in the '80's. We might add that Rollins has long been a favorite of poor little rich Yankees  who didn't make it into the Ivy League (plus Mr. Rogers!). It used to amaze me walking around campus (I took drama classes at Rollins back in junior high in one of their extension programs for the community) that there were often more license plates from northern states than from the South or even Florida.

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by spenser1058

[I am Reality]

10 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Not a single one of these places extend for 20 miles (or even 10). 

Get it together, Heather!

(btw, its Provincetown, not Providencetown... no worries though, this is a pretty common mistake for those not well traveled)

Mainline Philadelphia.

At least 20 miles long - about 10 colleges (including the national champ basketball team), tons of restaurants and bars and million-dollar homes.  It's so long because it follows a train line.

And I guess ENTIRE towns that look like Park Avenue count for nothing.  

[prahaboheme]

2 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Mainline Philadelphia.

At least 20 miles long - about 10 colleges (including the national champ basketball team), tons of restaurants and bars and million-dollar homes.  It's so long because it follows a train line.

And I guess ENTIRE towns that look like Park Avenue count for nothing.  

Oh I see, shifting the goal post. 

[I am Reality]

11 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Oh I see, shifting the goal post. 

I said: "At least 20 miles long." How am I moving the goalposts? I stand by what I said.

Are we going to argue all day here?  Someone disagreed with what I said about Park Avenue.  I gave dozens of examples.  Is that not enough?  Let me say it again...  The Philadelphia Mainline is at least 20 miles long.

Do people just reflexively disagree with me?  

If you want to think Park Avenue is one-of-a-kind, so be it.  I disagree and I just provided dozens of example why.  

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by I am Reality

[prahaboheme]

5 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I said: "At least 20 miles long." How am I moving the goalposts? I stand by what I said.

Are we going to argue all day here?  Someone disagreed with what I said about Park Avenue.  I gave dozens of examples.  Is that not enough?  Let me say it again...  The Philadelphia Mainline is at least 20 miles long.

Do people just reflexively disagree with me?  

If you want to think Park Avenue is one-of-a-kind, so be it.  I disagree and I just provided dozens of example why.  

 

And I responded that the "dozens" of examples you gave are false.  I don't disagree with you; just helping you get to the truth.

Who said Park Ave is one-of-kind?  If they did though, they certainly have dozens of reasons to believe it

[nite owℓ]

@I am Reality I'm genuinely curious; what do you wish to accomplish by debating the Orlando's job growth with members on this forum? It has already been established (multiple times) that Orlando is lagging behind in high paying jobs when compared similar cities, so what is your end goal since we've already reached a general consensus? It's one thing to argue your points before city council, the mayor and/or the governor, but what's the point in beating a dead horse on here?