Orlando Extended Metro Developments (Volusia/Brevard/East Polk)

[jrs2]

23 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

A new addition to Disney’s fleet, the Wish, has arrived at Port Canaveral in preparation for its shakedown cruise:

 

https://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/202206/9012/

 

From Theme Park Insider 

I had no idea they are still building new DCL ships.  It continues to bolster PC's reputation as the new DCL ship, Wish, the new RC Oasis Class, and the new Carnival ship are each being home ported at PC.

Disney added to the notoriety of the port back in the late '90's.  But Carnival, Norwegian, and RC have continued to show a continued commitment to the port and market.

[spenser1058]

Two more are in the works -also 4000 passengers each. Not sure of the berths  yet.

Edited June 22, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

8 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Two more are in the works -also 4000 passengers each. Normt sure if the berths yet.

Terminal 3 looks to be designed to be doubled in size to it's west for yet another future berth and terminal.  Beyond that, PC would have to do some shuffling I think on the South Side.  But the North Side could perhaps have another berth at the terminal where RC terminal currently is, by dredging up and creating a berth to the south pretty close to where the draw bridge is.  I think I saw that on a 20 year master plan before.

[spenser1058]

Publix is buying the 142,000sf former FedEx building in downtown Lakeland as the site for its IT campus. Apparently, they looked at spots in places like Atlanta and NC, but decided to go with Lakeland (does this surprise anyone?)

A possible complication is that the grocer also wants to buy and demolish the nearby former Florida Citrus Mutual building to construct a surface parking lot for all those IT folks. Only problem is that the city is trying to rid itself of all such lots downtown.

Since Publix rules the roost in Swan City, we can probably guess who’ll win this tug-of-war…

 

https://www.theledger.com/story/news/local/2022/06/21/lakeland-publix-plans-new-tech-campus-downtown-buys-fedex-building/7691402001/

From The Lakeland Ledger 

 

 

[orange87]

Former DeBary junkyard to be converted into 240 apartments

Article: https://debarylife.com/debary-apartments-junkyard/?fbclid=IwAR3-h0XcpOcQg4XKTPAtV6jpS2D4VmQ8sqlitI7kQ_NtPC4bsyVQPna3Lk4

[spenser1058]

30 minutes ago, orange87 said:

Former DeBary junkyard to be converted into 240 apartments

Article: https://debarylife.com/debary-apartments-junkyard/?fbclid=IwAR3-h0XcpOcQg4XKTPAtV6jpS2D4VmQ8sqlitI7kQ_NtPC4bsyVQPna3Lk4

But where will LeRoy Brown and all the mean junkyard dogs go?

[spenser1058]

Port Canaveral finances are in great shape as new ships arrive and the facility more fully recovers from COVID woes:

“As Disney Cruise Line gears up with its first new ship sailing from Port Canaveral in more than a decade, the port is already surging ahead of its expected budget nine months into the fiscal year.”

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-port-canaveral-budget-update-20220628-dwsup237qbdidizdyulrv2m6hm-story.html

From The Sentinel 
 

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Port Canaveral finances are in great shape as new ships arrive and the facility more fully recovers from COVID woes:

“As Disney Cruise Line gears up with its first new ship sailing from Port Canaveral in more than a decade, the port is already surging ahead of its expected budget nine months into the fiscal year.”

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-port-canaveral-budget-update-20220628-dwsup237qbdidizdyulrv2m6hm-story.html

From The Sentinel 
 

that's fantastic. the more money they get from the cruise industry, the more flexibility they have to beef up the cargo operations (and cruise operations).  I know they lost out on landing an auto carrier because of the lack of cargo rail...and I know that has stunted the container business as well...not sure how that will get fixed.

[spenser1058]

Did you know that Melbourne has an alphabet ‘hood called EGAD? It stands for “Eau Gallie Arts District”. I like that.

(Eau Gallie used to be a separate city until it consolidated with Melbourne in 1969).

Edited July 4, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

On 7/4/2022 at 1:29 PM, spenser1058 said:

Did you know that Melbourne has an alphabet ‘hood called EGAD? It stands for “Eau Gallie Arts District”. I like that.

(Eau Gallie used to be a separate city until it consolidated with Melbourne in 1969).

maybe on this or on another thread, since you were entrenched in government for many years, what happened around 1968-69 that begat the consolidation craze?  I know about Jax.  I'm not talking about gerrymandering issues; there's something more; it has to do with "corporate limits" and I surmise legal definitions of some  cities either changing or morphing.  City-county consolidation, for one. Towns merging with neighboring cities is another.  But why in 1968-69? And how did the legal designations of these places change- if at all?

Gracias...

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

maybe on this or on another thread, since you were entrenched in government for many years, what happened around 1968-69 that begat the consolidation craze?  I know about Jax.  I'm not talking about gerrymandering issues; there's something more; it has to do with "corporate limits" and I surmise legal definitions of some  cities either changing or morphing.  City-county consolidation, for one. Towns merging with neighboring cities is another.  But why in 1968-69? And how did the legal designations of these places change- if at all?

Gracias...

In places like Nashville (which was actually 1963) and Jacksonville, it had to do with the idea that blacks might come to control the cities by electing mayors and councils of color. By consolidating, all those folks who headed for the counties due to white flight could dilute the black (or those of other minorities) votes of those still in the cities. It was just one more reaction to the Civil Rights Acts passed in the ‘60’s.

In Melbourne/Eau Gallie, I don’t know enough about those places to know what was the driver. I do recall that one thing mentioned was that it made Melbourne the largest city in Brevard at the time (later eclipsed by yet another faux city, Palm Bay, which, like Deltona or Poinciana, aren’t cities so much as subdivisions on steroids). That tended to shift power in the county southward.

Finally, in the ‘50’s, another case was in Buckhead, GA, which was broke and Atlanta was called in to bail it out.

In Nashville and Jax (two places I’ve lived), charters were created that decided who was part of consolidated government and how. As a result, it’s largely up to decisions in the charter agreed upon by the city or cities, the county and the state as to exactly how the new government works. Hope this helps.

When it’s been discussed locally, btw, it’s generally been assumed only Orlando and OC would consolidate. The other cities in OC would remain independent and they would interact with the consolidated government just as they do now with OC. Winter Park, for example, would remain basically unchanged.

Edited July 5, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

12 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

In places like Nashville (which was actually 1963) and Jacksonville, it had to do with the idea that blacks might come to control the cities by electing mayors and councils of color. By consolidating, all those folks who headed for the counties due to white flight could dilute the black (or other minority voters) of those still in the cities. It was just one more reaction to the Civil Rights Acts passed in the ‘60’s.

In Melbourne/Eau Gallie, I don’t know enough about those places to know what was the driver. I do recall that one thing mentioned was that it made Melbourne the largest city in Brevard at the time (later eclipsed by yet another faux city, Palm Bay, which, like Deltona or Poinciana, aren’t cities so much as subdivisions on steroids). That tended to shift power in the county southward.

Finally, in the ‘50’s, another case was in Buckhead, GA, which was broke and Atlanta was called in to bail it out.

In Nashville and Jax (two places I’ve lived), charters were created that decided who was part of consolidated government and how. As a result, it’s largely up to decisions in the charter agreed upon by the city or cities, the county and the state as to exactly how the new government works. Hope this helps.

When it’s been discussed locally, btw, it’s generally been assumed only Orlando and OC would consolidate. The other cities in OC would remain independent and they would interact with the consolidated government just as they do now with OC. Winter Park, for example, would remain basically unchanged.

but what about the designation "corporate limits"?  

[spenser1058]

51 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

but what about the designation "corporate limits"?  

Not sure about that term - there generally is an urban service area that receives different funding, amenities and taxes than rural areas. Do you have an example regarding corporate limits?

There’s also a bit of irony, fifty years later, in the case of Jacksonville. Those who are white and most resistant to other groups are increasingly moving beyond Duval County to places like St. Johns and Clay counties.

Accordingly, that major incentive for consolidation increasingly doesn’t apply. That’s a reason why it doesn’t happen as much anymore or, in places like Memphis, where predominantly white neighborhoods are petitioning states (generally red ones) to de -consolidate and go on their own. Buckhead has also been trying to divorce itself from Atlanta.
 
 

Edited July 5, 2022 by spenser1058

[jack]

19 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Not sure about that term - there generally is an urban service area that receives different funding, amenities and taxes than rural areas. Do you have an example regarding corporate limits?

There’s also a bit of irony, fifty years later, in the case of Jacksonville. Those who are white and most resistant to other groups are increasingly moving beyond Duval County to places like St. Johns and Clay counties.

Accordingly, that major incentive for consolidation increasingly doesn’t apply. That’s a reason why it doesn’t happen as much anymore or, in places like Memphis, where predominantly white neighborhoods are petitioning states (generally red ones) to de -consolidate and go on their own. Buckhead has also been trying to divorce itself from Atlanta.
 
 

I think the idea was the consolidation would improve efficiencies in government service. That's why they were big in the 60's and 70's when rising cost of government was starting to overwhelm cities. 

I have never heard the race angle and not sure how wide spread it was. 

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, jack said:

I think the idea was the consolidation would improve efficiencies in government service. That's why they were big in the 60's and 70's when rising cost of government was starting to overwhelm cities. 

I have never heard the race angle and not sure how wide spread it was. 

The interesting thing about it is that when we studied it in college (I was an urban econ major), there never really was clear evidence that consolidation made all that much difference at the bottom line.

It tends to make more of a difference in quality of life issues and political representation. If East Orange County were a city, for example, its population would likely have several city council folks rather than the one or two county commissioners (depending where you put the boundaries) it currently has. City staff would also put more focus on East Orange issues than on the entire county.

As to the racial component, I am well aware of that factor in the two consolidated cities I’ve lived in. The fact that the peak of that activity was in the 1960’s is also telling.

In any event, let the numbers speak for themselves:

Nashville has yet to have a black mayor and Jacksonville has had one (Alvin Brown, who served just one term unlike the other post-1968 mayors).

Compare that with similar Southern cities like Birmingham and Atlanta.

As I’ve mentioned before, that point is now largely moot as the white flight of those most resistant to representation by those of color simply move across county lines now.

Edited July 6, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

On 7/5/2022 at 3:54 PM, spenser1058 said:

Not sure about that term - there generally is an urban service area that receives different funding, amenities and taxes than rural areas. Do you have an example regarding corporate limits?

There’s also a bit of irony, fifty years later, in the case of Jacksonville. Those who are white and most resistant to other groups are increasingly moving beyond Duval County to places like St. Johns and Clay counties.

Accordingly, that major incentive for consolidation increasingly doesn’t apply. That’s a reason why it doesn’t happen as much anymore or, in places like Memphis, where predominantly white neighborhoods are petitioning states (generally red ones) to de -consolidate and go on their own. Buckhead has also been trying to divorce itself from Atlanta.
 

I had an old map that literally said "Jacksonville Corporate Limits." on it.  This is from the 1970's  I saw others like that but can't remember where...

[spenser1058]

Stetson Mansion in (DeLightful!) DeLand named one of the Top 10 attractions in the US by Trip Advisor.

@orange87, you let them go for the Stetson over DeBary Hall?

[jrs2]

On 7/5/2022 at 3:54 PM, spenser1058 said:

Not sure about that term - there generally is an urban service area that receives different funding, amenities and taxes than rural areas. Do you have an example regarding corporate limits?

There’s also a bit of irony, fifty years later, in the case of Jacksonville. Those who are white and most resistant to other groups are increasingly moving beyond Duval County to places like St. Johns and Clay counties.

Accordingly, that major incentive for consolidation increasingly doesn’t apply. That’s a reason why it doesn’t happen as much anymore or, in places like Memphis, where predominantly white neighborhoods are petitioning states (generally red ones) to de -consolidate and go on their own. Buckhead has also been trying to divorce itself from Atlanta.
 

So I went to Wikipedia to see if there was some kind of definition for "corporate limits."  In the section for consolidation, there was no definition, rather, it instead had the following to say about who benefited from consolidation, which contradicts your comments about racial reasons for consolidation; it says the exact opposite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville,_Florida

Jacksonville Consolidation, led by J. J. Daniel and Claude Yates, began to win more support during this period, from both inner-city blacks, who wanted more involvement in government after passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, that provided federal oversight and enforcement of their right to vote, and whites in the suburbs, who wanted more services and more control over the central city. Lower taxes, increased economic development, unification of the community, better public spending, and effective administration by a more central authority were all cited as reasons for a new consolidated government.

When a consolidation referendum was held in 1967, voters approved the plan with a 65 percent approval. On October 1, 1968, the city and county governments merged to create the Consolidated City of Jacksonville. Fire, police, health & welfare, recreation, public works, and housing & urban development were all combined under the new government. In honor of the occasion, then-Mayor Hans Tanzler posed with actress Lee Meredith behind a sign marking the new border of the "Bold New City of the South" at Florida 13 and Julington Creek.^[48] The consolidation created a 900-square-mile entity.   

[spenser1058]

58 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

So I went to Wikipedia to see if there was some kind of definition for "corporate limits."  In the section for consolidation, there was no definition, rather, it instead had the following to say about who benefited from consolidation, which contradicts your comments about racial reasons for consolidation; it says the exact opposite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville,_Florida

Jacksonville Consolidation, led by J. J. Daniel and Claude Yates, began to win more support during this period, from both inner-city blacks, who wanted more involvement in government after passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, that provided federal oversight and enforcement of their right to vote, and whites in the suburbs, who wanted more services and more control over the central city. Lower taxes, increased economic development, unification of the community, better public spending, and effective administration by a more central authority were all cited as reasons for a new consolidated government.

When a consolidation referendum was held in 1967, voters approved the plan with a 65 percent approval. On October 1, 1968, the city and county governments merged to create the Consolidated City of Jacksonville. Fire, police, health & welfare, recreation, public works, and housing & urban development were all combined under the new government. In honor of the occasion, then-Mayor Hans Tanzler posed with actress Lee Meredith behind a sign marking the new border of the "Bold New City of the South" at Florida 13 and Julington Creek.^[48] The consolidation created a 900-square-mile entity.   

Not really. The Jaxson did an excellent series of articles on consolidation during its 50th anniversary and noted two things: one , that things were so bad in the city at that point African-Americans were willing to try anything, and two, that all kinds of promises were made that, if blacks supported consolidations, like unpaved roads in their part of town would be upgraded, sewer systems would finally be installed, and anything else that might move the vote.

The Jaxson pointed out that, 50 years on, the majority of those promises remain unkept.

There were folks who truly believed, race issues aside, that consolidation would in fact prove more efficient. Research generally doesn’t bear that out. Is it shocking it became popular in the ‘60’s in the midst of civil rights battles? Actually, that’s telling. Once that settled down and it didn’t really look like it made a difference economically, it became less popular.

It’s worth noting that cities like Memphis, in the MAGA era, are once again seeing white enclaves trying to be deannexed from the city.

Remember the point you made about a Wiki article on college football being biased? Well, what you’re reading about Jax consolidation is the official version which has been carefully whitewashed to minimize any differences. Remember, Jacksonville had some of the worst fights on desegregation in the country during that period.

Edited July 7, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

9 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Not really. The Jaxson did an series of articles on consolidation during its 50th anniversary and noted two things: one , that things were so bad in the city at that point African-Americans were willing to try anything at that point, and two, that all kinds of promises were made that, if blacks supported consolidations, unpaved roads in their part of town would be upgraded, sewer systems would finally be installed, and anything else that might move the vote.

The Jaxson pointed out that, 50 years on, the majority of those promises remain unkept.

There were folks who truly believed, race issues aside, that consolidation would in fact prove more efficient. Research generally doesn’t bear that out. Is it shocking it became popular in the ‘60’s in the midst of civil rights battles? Actually, that’s telling. Once that settled down and it didn’t really look like it made a difference economically, it became less popular.

It’s worth noting that, in cities like Memphis, in the MAGA era, are once again having white enclaves trying to be deannexed from the city.

Remember the point you made about a Wiki article on college football being biased? Well, what you’re reading about Jax consolidation is the official version which has been carefully whitewashed to minimize any differences. Remember, Jacksonville had some of the worst fights on desegregation in the country during that period.

LOL! you said "white"-washed...

I predicted you would bring that up about the Wiki article from yesterday.  LOL.  I still don't have an answer to that question about 1968 corporate limits designation. the reason I keep harping on that is because I've heard stuff about civic entities having been converted into "corporations" and the year 1968 came up as well in those other examples...and this is way above something as mundane or commonplace as racial issues at the local level. I'm gonna do some more digging.

[spenser1058]

33 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

LOL! you said "white"-washed...

I predicted you would bring that up about the Wiki article from yesterday.  LOL.  I still don't have an answer to that question about 1968 corporate limits designation. the reason I keep harping on that is because I've heard stuff about civic entities having been converted into "corporations" and the year 1968 came up as well in those other examples...and this is way above something as mundane or commonplace as racial issues at the local level. I'm gonna do some more digging.

I think the answer is that the Florida statutes originally referred to cities created as “municipal corporations “, and that map probably used the term to differentiate from the consolidated area.

Back on Jax, some more Wiki to check out: “Ax Handle Saturday”, which shows just how bad things got. It’s also significant that in the ‘60’s , Jax schools lost accreditation, one reason being that, over a decade after the Brown decision, they were still segregated.

If you know the history of Jax in that period, it wasn’t pretty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ax_Handle_Saturday

[spenser1058]

Just for fun, this is how The Beatles handled segregation in Jax in 1964:

https://www.salon.com/2020/06/27/the-beatles-in-jacksonville-1964-inside-the-fab-fours-historic-stand-against-segregation/

From Salon

For @jrs2: it notes the Gator Bowl seated 32000 at the time. The World’s Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party took place in a stadium with more than 10000 seats fewer than the Bounce House…

While we’re with the Gators, let’s check out where we usually ate after a home game back in the day:

http://retireddrifters.blogspot.com/2010/09/brahma-restaurant.html

If the game finished late enough, we sometimes spent the night at the Holiday Inn, and if I was REALLY lucky, I’d talk mom and dad into going to Six Gun Territory on Sunday instead of going to church…
 

Edited July 7, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

39 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I think the answer is that the Florida statutes originally referred to cities created as “municipal corporations “, and that map probably used the term to differentiate from the consolidated area.

Back on Jax, some more Wiki to check out: “Ax Handle Saturday”, which shows just how bad things got. It’s also significant that in the ‘60’s , Jax schools lost accreditation, one reason being that, over a decade after the Brown decision, they were still segregated.

If you know the history of Jax in that period, it wasn’t pretty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ax_Handle_Saturday

I think I remember now,  the "corporation" designation may have had to do with the city's ability to file for bankruptcy I think...

[jack]

On 7/6/2022 at 12:35 PM, spenser1058 said:

The interesting thing about it is that when we studied it in college (I was an urban econ major), there never really was clear evidence that consolidation made all that much difference at the bottom line.

It tends to make more of a difference in quality of life issues and political representation. If East Orange County were a city, for example, its population would likely have several city council folks rather than the one or two county commissioners (depending where you put the boundaries) it currently has. City staff would also put more focus on East Orange issues than on the entire county.

As to the racial component, I am well aware of that factor in the two consolidated cities I’ve lived in. The fact that the peak of that activity was in the 1960’s is also telling.

In any event, let the numbers speak for themselves:

Nashville has yet to have a black mayor and Jacksonville has had one (Alvin Brown, who served just one term unlike the other post-1968 mayors).

Compare that with similar Southern cities like Birmingham and Atlanta.

As I’ve mentioned before, that point is now largely moot as the white flight of those most resistant to representation by those of color simply move across county lines now.

The two cities you mentioned were also a lot smaller when consolidation happened. I think the primary reason was economic and it makes absolute sense that black residents supported it regardless of the improvements never happened. 

Cities that were larger had the opposite problem. De-annexation primarily due to crime (code word for race) led to tiny cities across the nation that never should have existed. 

Ultimately, I think racist people can make decisions that do not have anything to do with race. 

I can see east Orange County looking to incorporate within the next 5 years for the exact reasons you mentioned. 

[jrs2]

PC News:

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2022/07/14/disney-wish-prepares-to-set-sail-on-maiden-voyage/#//