Economic Development - Expansions and Relocations

[Dale]

1 hour ago, cltbwimob said:

You stated that people moving to cities without good transit indicates that perhaps they don't care about light rail.  My post was simply the counterfactual.  You cherry pick a few cities and say that young hip people moving to those cities implies that they don't care about transit. I cherry pick a few cities and say that the same demographic stampeding to my list suggests that they do care about transit.  Both are arguments borne out of spurious correlation and cherry picked data points.  The only difference is that I took you own logic and flipped the script on purpose just to show how your argument was invalid.  But what you have suggested is my logic is not my logic at all.

As for your second paragraph.  I do agree that it's more about opportunity than transit.  But that was not your initial argument, or at least it wasn't clear that it was which is why I provided a counterpoint.

I'd almost be willing to bet money that nobody ever says, "I'm moving to NYC because it has the most extensive rail transit in the nation!"

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Dale said:

I'd almost be willing to bet money that nobody ever says, "I'm moving to NYC because it has the most extensive rail transit in the nation!"

maybe not, but its one of the primary reasons I'm still here. 

[Matthew.Brendan]

No they move there for what it is - and it’s certainly that extensive mass transit that helped build NYC into what it is today. 

[cltbwimob]

47 minutes ago, Dale said:

I'd almost be willing to bet money that nobody ever says, "I'm moving to NYC because it has the most extensive rail transit in the nation!"

Well that most extensive rail transit system allows people to live car free or near car free.  And I am sure you would at least acknowledge that some people probably do move to NYC for the car free lifestyle, so in a roundabout way, I'll bet that some do move to NYC because it has the most extensive rail system in the country.  Sure they may have never uttered the words "because it has the most extensive rail system in the country."  However it is that rail system that might drive those for whom a car free lifestyle is important to live in NYC.  Plus it's New York, a city of 8.5 million people.  I'll bet that someone has, based on simple probability alone, moved to NYC and did, as their stated purpose for moving, utter something to the effect of it having the most extensive rail transit sustem in the US.

Look my point is this-you can't say that young hip people don't care about light rail or transit based on the fact that many of them are moving to Charlotte, Austin, RDU, or Nashville.  Statistically speaking such an argument is beyond baseless.  I will give you that economic and personal opportunity, based on how one defines economic/personal opportunity, probably trump all other reasons for moving from one locale to the next.  But it is an illogical leap to suggest that because people go where opportunity presents itself, that they don't necessarily care about transit.  That's why I say that your argument consists of cherry picked data points and spurious correlation. For some people, access to transit may be a secondary or a tertiary concern, but it is nonetheless a concern.  And for some people, their economic opportunity is dependent on access to transit because they may not be able to afford a car.  All other things equal (equal economic and personal opportunity, etc), I bet the overwhelming majority of young hip people prefer to move to a city with more transit as opposed to less.

Edited May 2, 2018 by cltbwimob

[KJHburg]

My whole point about mentioned AB move to Nashville and the NO vote on transit there was I thought that would make a difference with a company from NYC.  I think Charlotte will use this to sell against Nashville for  years to come.  Transit is needed in any growing city and I think this is a big advantage going forward for Charlotte.  Nashville will probably have to wait 10 years or more before they have something like our LYNX.  Their traffic congestion in my opinion is greater than Charlotte now especially around downtown where all these interstates come together and split off.  

So Charlotte Chamber and NC EDP sell this below. 

[smeagolsfree]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

My whole point about mentioned AB move to Nashville and the NO vote on transit there was I thought that would make a difference with a company from NYC.  I think Charlotte will use this to sell against Nashville for  years to come.  Transit is needed in any growing city and I think this is a big advantage going forward for Charlotte.  Nashville will probably have to wait 10 years or more before they have something like our LYNX.  Their traffic congestion in my opinion is greater than Charlotte now especially around downtown where all these interstates come together and split off.  

So Charlotte Chamber and NC EDP sell this below. 

Agree 100%

[kermit]

And meanwhile, to the chagrin of locals, when Amazon visited Raleigh they only viewed the two sites which had the potential for transit access. Downtown and RTP.

http://www.heraldsun.com/news/business/article210141649.html

[Dale]

Amazon must have been thinking ahead. Raleigh is still years away from completing any sort of rail that will hemorrhage ridership after the novelty wears off.

[KJHburg]

From a subscriber article about Alliance Bernstein 

""Culbertson, who said he had some knowledge of the AllianceBernstein deal, said a reason Charlotte might have been passed over for the project is a perception that Charlotte has too many finance workers and companies that would make it difficult for AB to compete for employees — quite the opposite of Amazon's feedback, which indicated Charlotte did not have enough workforce in a certain sector.""

""He noted that despite the loss of AB to Nashville, the pipeline remains strong for Charlotte. And, despite winning AB on the same day, Holladay said Nashville suffered "a great setback" when residents voted down a $5.4 billion transit plan yesterday.""

Mr Holladay is an econ development consultant. 

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2018/05/02/where-charlotte-may-have-missed-the-mark-in.html?ana=e_du_prem&s=article_du&ed=2018-05-02&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1525289686&j=81359231

[Ingram]

Maybe once you get beyond the spreadsheet scenarios, white papers, and best practice theories it is as simple as how does a person or persons feel about a place. They came to Nashville, they saw Nashville, they experienced Nashville, and the results were they liked Nashville much more than any other place. Obviously they were infatuated with downtown since they want to move into one of the office towers getting built. They want to be a part of what they saw. Which again is testimony as to how an attraction or feeling can steer a person or persons actions. They could have easily signed up for one of the suburban locations but they opted for a downtown location instead.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Ingram

[satalac]

On 5/2/2018 at 12:39 PM, KJHburg said:

My whole point about mentioned AB move to Nashville and the NO vote on transit there was I thought that would make a difference with a company from NYC.  I think Charlotte will use this to sell against Nashville for  years to come.  Transit is needed in any growing city and I think this is a big advantage going forward for Charlotte.  Nashville will probably have to wait 10 years or more before they have something like our LYNX.  Their traffic congestion in my opinion is greater than Charlotte now especially around downtown where all these interstates come together and split off.  

So Charlotte Chamber and NC EDP sell this below. 

I was sad that the voters here in Nashville killed the transit bill. How is mass transit working out in Charlotte?  Is ridership meeting projections? Hopefully it's better than the two people (three counting the photographer) on the platform. I think that was one of the concerns that voters had here. Has it been worth the costs? A lot of the opposition used new transit projects against the proposed plan. I mean, we have a commuter rail line, but it never really met projections, though it still is operating thankfully. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, satalac said:

I was sad that the voters here in Nashville killed the transit bill. How is mass transit working out in Charlotte?  Is ridership meeting projections? Hopefully it's better than the two people (three counting the photographer) on the platform. I think that was one of the concerns that voters had here. Has it been worth the costs? A lot of the opposition used new transit projects against the proposed plan. I mean, we have a commuter rail line, but it never really met projections, though it still is operating thankfully. 

It immediately smashed expectations, but has not seen growth despite the population of the areas it serves increasing nearly threefold.

[satalac]

4 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

It immediately smashed expectations, but has not seen growth despite the population of the areas it serves increasing nearly threefold.

That's great to hear. What are your thoughts on the reasons of lack of growth? 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, satalac said:

That's great to hear. What are your thoughts on the reasons of lack of growth? 

Numerous factors. Cheap gas probably the number one reason. Followed by lack of train capacity expansion, fairly long headways, and much of the southern end of the line remains un/underdeveloped. Theres been a ton of development in Southend/LoSo area, but those project continue to provide parking at nearly a 2:1 ratio. Things are still to convenient for drivers, basically.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Guest

[Cadi40]

But, Ridership should beef up within the next 5-10 years as population continues to explode and the NoDa/University Area begins to blossom with transit orineted projects. 

[Scribe]

I think it is ride-share services - Uber/Lyft. And on a nice (weather) day, I can even see bike-share taking away from transit ridership as well.

41 minutes ago, satalac said:

What are your thoughts on the reasons of lack of growth? 

 

31 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Numerous factors. Cheap gas probably the number one reason.

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Scribe

[kermit]

1 hour ago, satalac said:

That's great to hear. What are your thoughts on the reasons of lack of growth? 

From my perspective as a post BLE blue line commuter I would offer that capacity at the morning peak (at the current frequencies) is close to maxed out between East West and 3rd street. Some trains (generally the single unit ones) are so crowded that it is not unusual for people waiting to board to be left behind (happened this morning around 8:30).

This is not to suggest that every inbound morning train is butt-to-nut but enough of them are that new choice riders living in Southend may be discouraged because they don’t want to join the crush.

(this is just one of a collection of factors and this is based only on my experience since the BLE open. As I offered in the ridership thread I also think improved walkability and bikeability are also a big part of flat ridership in Southend -- the only real destination for Southend riders before the BLE was uptown, residents realized quickly that it was cheaper and just as fast to bike there and ride share was close to the same cost as a rail ticket)

Edited May 8, 2018 by kermit

[CLT2014]

The Blue Line helped transform SouthEnd to a cool neighborhood, but probably 50% of the neighborhood doesn't work along the Blue Line. Lots of SouthEnd residents work in the airport office parks (Vanguard, Belk, Sealed Air, UTC, etc..), Steele Creek, Ballantyne (SPX, MetLife, Brighthouse, Snyder's Lance), Indian Land (the RedVentures clan, Movement Mortgage), Fort Mill (LPL Financial, Lash Group), University City's Innovation Park area (tons of engineers, Wells Fargo, Areva, Allstate, etc...)... 

The southern portion of the line has very few people that commute to work Uptown near Sharon Lakes.

Really Uptown and UNCC are the only major employment centers covered by the Blue Line. Residents are living in the neighborhood for the lifestyle, but not necessarily because it it close to work. The amount of RedVentures employees in SouthEnd is a great example of people living in TOD developments, but using cars for their job. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by CLT2014

[deleted]

5 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Numerous factors. Cheap gas probably the number one reason.

This "problem" will likely be remedied soon.

[kermit]

7 minutes ago, JBS said:

This "problem" will likely be remedied soon.

Perhaps in a matter of hours....

[KJHburg]

6 hours ago, satalac said:

I was sad that the voters here in Nashville killed the transit bill. How is mass transit working out in Charlotte?  Is ridership meeting projections? Hopefully it's better than the two people (three counting the photographer) on the platform. I think that was one of the concerns that voters had here. Has it been worth the costs? A lot of the opposition used new transit projects against the proposed plan. I mean, we have a commuter rail line, but it never really met projections, though it still is operating thankfully. 

That photo was taken around 11 am and this station is right outside our downtown (Uptown)   What our light rail has done in Charlotte is drive development of office and mainly residential apartments around our light rail on both the existing line and the new extension.  I noticed in Nashville last year apartments are going everywhere with no pattern but here in Charlotte a great proportion of our new apartment complexes are along light rail.  Has it solved traffic problems heck no.  But it does give you an option of avoiding high parking fees uptown and long commutes.  Plus our LYNX connects to UNC Charlotte a university with 23,000 plus students.  They get free access with their student fees.   

I absolutely believe Charlotte will tell the story of our LYNX system  to any economic prospect that is considering Charlotte vs cities that don't have this option.  With such competitiveness with finding workers these days this will help us.  Austin did not want to build the roads and or light rail thinking it would discourage growth.  It did not.  (and believe me Texas can build some highways so no problem with state help. ).  Dittos Charleston they are against building new roads thinking it would help curb growth it has not and now traffic there at peak times  is at Charlotte or beyond  levels.    Come visit and check Charlotte out for self. 

[Crucial_Infra]

24 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

That photo was taken around 11 am and this station is right outside our downtown (Uptown)   What our light rail has done in Charlotte is drive development of office and mainly residential apartments around our light rail on both the existing line and the new extension.  I noticed in Nashville last year apartments are going everywhere with no pattern but here in Charlotte a great proportion of our new apartment complexes are along light rail.  Has it solved traffic problems heck no.  But it does give you an option of avoiding high parking fees uptown and long commutes.  Plus our LYNX connects to UNC Charlotte a university with 23,000 plus students.  They get free access with their student fees.   

I absolutely believe Charlotte will tell the story of our LYNX system  to any economic prospect that is considering Charlotte vs cities that don't have this option.  With such competitiveness with finding workers these days this will help us.  Austin did not want to build the roads and or light rail thinking it would discourage growth.  It did not.  (and believe me Texas can build some highways so no problem with state help. ).  Dittos Charleston they are against building new roads thinking it would help curb growth it has not and now traffic there at peak times  is at Charlotte or beyond  levels.    Come visit and check Charlotte out for self. 

One thing I noticed this past week when I rode the LYNX for the first time was that our station (East/West) only had two or three people waiting much like your photo (It was probably around the same time - 11am) but when we got on we had to move to a new car to find a place to sit. I was surprised how full it was for that time of day. Anyway, didn't get a chance to ride the new BLE which I read still has some kinks to work out but the Blue Line was perfect sailing and right on time. Also managed to buy our first time tickets in time with the train only a minute away. It was very quick and easy.  Easier than the bikeshare apps that's for sure! 

[15895]

3 minutes ago, Crucial_Infra said:

One thing I noticed this past week when I rode the LYNX for the first time was that our station (East/West) only had two or three people waiting much like your photo (It was probably around the same time - 11am) but when we got on we had to move to a new car to find a place to sit. I was surprised how full it was for that time of day. Anyway, didn't get a chance to ride the new BLE which I read still has some kinks to work out but the Blue Line was perfect sailing and right on time. Also managed to buy our first time tickets in time with the train only a minute away. It was very quick and easy.  Easier than the bikeshare apps that's for sure! 

At 4pm, my Station (Arrowood) has around 20+ people get off.  The blue line is consistently packed. The extension is a slower start but it started mid semester for UNCC students who already paid hundreds for a parking pass

[satalac]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

That photo was taken around 11 am and this station is right outside our downtown (Uptown)   What our light rail has done in Charlotte is drive development of office and mainly residential apartments around our light rail on both the existing line and the new extension.  I noticed in Nashville last year apartments are going everywhere with no pattern but here in Charlotte a great proportion of our new apartment complexes are along light rail.  Has it solved traffic problems heck no.  But it does give you an option of avoiding high parking fees uptown and long commutes.  Plus our LYNX connects to UNC Charlotte a university with 23,000 plus students.  They get free access with their student fees.   

I absolutely believe Charlotte will tell the story of our LYNX system  to any economic prospect that is considering Charlotte vs cities that don't have this option.  With such competitiveness with finding workers these days this will help us.  Austin did not want to build the roads and or light rail thinking it would discourage growth.  It did not.  (and believe me Texas can build some highways so no problem with state help. ).  Dittos Charleston they are against building new roads thinking it would help curb growth it has not and now traffic there at peak times  is at Charlotte or beyond  levels.    Come visit and check Charlotte out for self. 

I'm glad to hear that it's worked well for y'all. I always like hearing about mass transit done right.

[KJHburg]

from the Triangle Business Journal about Gov. Cooper's trip to SanFran and Silcon Valley

""In San Francisco last month for economic development meetings, Cooper met with multiple technology giants – from Google to LinkedIn, according to his spokesman, Ford Porter. But Porter said one big name was not on the itinerary: Apple, rumored to be considering a major expansion in North Carolina.  Does that mean North Carolina is off the short list? Not necessarily, says site selection consultant John Boyd of the New Jersey-based Boyd Group. Boyd, who has no direct knowledge of Cooper's visit, says he wouldn't read anything negative into Apple's absence from the itinerary.  "Apple is very familiar with Raleigh and has a solid relationship with the state's [economic development] professionals," Boyd says. "Just because the governor didn't meet with Apple on this trip, that doesn't mean he hasn't been in contact with company executives. There are hundreds of tech companies in [California] that are ripe candidates for NC to target."  As Apple CEO Tim Cook will be in town to speak at Duke University's graduation this weekend, Cooper could get another shot to pitch the state – this time on his home turf.""

I hope this Apple 3rd campus comes to NC and I think it could land in Raleigh Durham area as the CEO Tim Cook and CFO both went to Triangle universities and both worked at RTP with IBM and know this state quite well.    I would love for it come to Charlotte but only if in NC.