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Economic Development - Expansions and Relocations


J-Rob

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1 hour ago, nicholas said:

I doubt Rivian will last long.  They have lost a huge amount of customer goodwill due to a number of things, but repeated production delays (partly beyond their control) and monumentally stupid business decisions (massively increased prices across the board, even tried to increase vehicle prices by $12,000 for customers who had already put down a deposit) have really driven a lot of potential buyers away.  Tesla has been able to get away with similar things mostly due to being the first to the party, but now that basically every established automaker has a slew of electric cars already available/coming to market soon, there is almost no room for error for startups anymore.

Long term I think there will be a lot of consolidation among automakers mainly because it is more difficult to make electric cars different from each other.  With ICE cars, automakers can more easily make their models distinguishable from competitors due to a ton of different build combinations.  Engine type (I4, V6, V8, etc).  Natural aspiration vs forced induction (turbochargers/superchagers).  FWD vs RWD vs AWD.  Manual vs automatic/dual clutch.  Gas vs diesel.  Etc.  With electric cars there is a lot less to help distinguish one car from the next.  You basically get a choice of range and driven wheels, and that's pretty much it.  I do think that a lot of people would probably be better served with electric cars than ICE, but I'm also a realist and realize how little most car buyers know or care about cars.  I mean imagine if there was an eCR-V vs eCX-5 vs eEscape vs eEquinox vs eForester vs eRAV4 vs eOutlander Sport vs eRogue vs eSportage vs eTiguan vs eTuscon.  I'm know I'm forgetting some but there would be like a dozen electric CUVs all identical to each other in literally almost every regard except styling. 

Rivian has corporate customers. They will be around for a while. 

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20 hours ago, nicholas said:

I doubt Rivian will last long.  They have lost a huge amount of customer goodwill due to a number of things, but repeated production delays (partly beyond their control) and monumentally stupid business decisions (massively increased prices across the board, even tried to increase vehicle prices by $12,000 for customers who had already put down a deposit) have really driven a lot of potential buyers away.  Tesla has been able to get away with similar things mostly due to being the first to the party, but now that basically every established automaker has a slew of electric cars already available/coming to market soon, there is almost no room for error for startups anymore.

Long term I think there will be a lot of consolidation among automakers mainly because it is more difficult to make electric cars different from each other.  With ICE cars, automakers can more easily make their models distinguishable from competitors due to a ton of different build combinations.  Engine type (I4, V6, V8, etc).  Natural aspiration vs forced induction (turbochargers/superchagers).  FWD vs RWD vs AWD.  Manual vs automatic/dual clutch.  Gas vs diesel.  Etc.  With electric cars there is a lot less to help distinguish one car from the next.  You basically get a choice of range and driven wheels, and that's pretty much it.  I do think that a lot of people would probably be better served with electric cars than ICE, but I'm also a realist and realize how little most car buyers know or care about cars.  I mean imagine if there was an eCR-V vs eCX-5 vs eEscape vs eEquinox vs eForester vs eRAV4 vs eOutlander Sport vs eRogue vs eSportage vs eTiguan vs eTuscon.  I'm know I'm forgetting some but there would be like a dozen electric CUVs all identical to each other in literally almost every regard except styling. 

You realize that the domestic EVs are much worse than Rivian and Tesla don't you?

The increase in cost is due to extremely high demand more than it is parts increase. Its like the old Yogi Berra quote "nobody goes there anymore bc its so crowded".

Rivian is a great product, you should watch the Apple TV doc "Long Way Up" with Ewan McGregor highlighting how ruggid a Rivian can be. Ford and GM aren't close with their Trucks.

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1 hour ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

You realize that the domestic EVs are much worse than Rivian and Tesla don't you?

The increase in cost is due to extremely high demand more than it is parts increase. Its like the old Yogi Berra quote "nobody goes there anymore bc its so crowded".

Rivian is a great product, you should watch the Apple TV doc "Long Way Up" with Ewan McGregor highlighting how ruggid a Rivian can be. Ford and GM aren't close with their Trucks.

Rivian and Tesla ARE domestic, though I agree with your broader point. 

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15 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

The increase in cost is due to extremely high demand more than it is parts increase. Its like the old Yogi Berra quote "nobody goes there anymore bc its so crowded".

I can't speak to the demand side of the equation but commodities have been going nuts for the past year which is no doubt playing a big role in the cost increases. Chip shortages haven't helped either.

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I don't think so, the only reason Rivian supposedly did not come here, is our direct sale provisions. 

By future I meant electric car manufacturing. Any major auto manufacturing focused on electric vehicle production and development in NC?
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30 minutes ago, Blue_Devil said:

I don't think so, the only reason Rivian supposedly did not come here, is our direct sale provisions. 

Funny you brought that up, the bill to allow Rivian to sell vehicles outside a dealership system died in the GA Senate yesterday.  (GA does have a carveout for Tesla as does NC). Georgia can't consider the bill again until after the proposed start of construction of the factory.

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2022/03/17/rivian-bill-dies-senate.html

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On 3/16/2022 at 9:10 PM, JeanClt said:

NC not getting Rivian is a major L in the future prospects of vehicle manufacturing in NC.

Time will tell but I don't think so.   Domestic automakers have very loyal buyers no matter how crappy their products have been at times, and you've got electric trucks coming from Chevy and Ford, Ram isn't far behind, plus Hummer is being revived with a $100k+ electric truck and Tesla supposedly has the Cybertruck coming at some point.  It's going to be extremely difficult for a new automaker to lure buyers from them without bringing something unusually unique to the market.  I mean if a Rivian truck with an 800 mile electric range hits the road then that would be one thing but it's not gonna have that.  The Toyota plant was a much more crucial win for NC imo because their name is already synonymous with hybrid technology, and hybrid buyers are the ones who would really jump for an electric car from a brand they trust.

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On 3/16/2022 at 4:43 PM, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

You realize that the domestic EVs are much worse than Rivian and Tesla don't you?

The increase in cost is due to extremely high demand more than it is parts increase. Its like the old Yogi Berra quote "nobody goes there anymore bc its so crowded".

Rivian is a great product, you should watch the Apple TV doc "Long Way Up" with Ewan McGregor highlighting how ruggid a Rivian can be. Ford and GM aren't close with their Trucks.

How many trucks have they sold*? It's much harder to scale manufacturing then making a few one offs. Chances are, as with most new things, they are going to crash and burn. Add that we are going to go into some economic turbulence and uneconomic things like EVs will probably get cancelled.

* The number of total units delivered (920 in '21) includes delivery vans.

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Rivian vs the Ford F-150 Lightning isn't really comparable. The Rivian is absolutely a more impressive vehicle, as it should be for the 75% entry price premium. Rivian is building a brand for wealthy individual "outdoors minded" consumers who have the money to go on adventures / vacation / off-road. A person living in Myers Park that hangs out at the whitewater center, shops at REI, and drinks craft beer is exactly their target customer. They are not aspiring to be the truck your roofer or landscaper pulls up in.  Can this consumer base be profitable -> absolutely, they have a lot of money to spend to craft their personal brand.

Ford is still a mass market brand and the F-150 Lightning had to have a price / value play, especially if they want to tap into their mainstream America consumer base. Hence with the F-150 Lightning, you have a truck that is more focused on the heartland of the country, targets the upper-middle incomes rather than mass affluent, the domestic beer drinker, and could more easily scale as a fleet vehicle or part of a business. Ford definitely had to make some compromises to be able to produce an EV-truck that has all the capabilities of a truck with a price similar to a rear wheel drive Tesla Model 3 sedan. Personally, I'm relieved to see some manufacturers start making efforts to make EV's that appeal to a wider audience than America's elite / mass affluent. I think some of the "antagonism" from some groups around EV's is that they are so closely associated with being a vehicle for the affluent to be "green", while the rest of the country is left with gas vehicles because they can't afford a $1,000 a month car payment. 

Edited by CLT2014
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2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

As a recent graduate the Economic Development 101 class in Cabarrus County I will share some things I learn later about it which are good for the  Charlotte region.

You mean something specifically about the Vinfast announcement that is good for the region or something else unrelated?

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Just now, cltbwimob said:

You mean something specifically about the Vinfast announcement that is good for the region or something else unrelated?

Vinfast is good for the state and their suppliers which might end up here in this region dittos for the Toyota battery plant up in Greensboro.  With Arrival here in the Charlotte region, Celgard already here in Charlotte and Concord and now Toyota and hopefully this Vinfast plant the whole state benefits.  NC is building an EV cluster.  Their suppliers will set up within an easy drive and this megasite is only 2 hours away or so from Charlotte and even less from this area to Toyota's Greensboro Randolph county site.  

But in Cabarrus County I found out since Eli Lilly announcement of coming to Concord suddenly Cabarrus County is getting lots of biopharma interest from other companies that say if Eli Lilly is coming there we need to look at the region.  This is big change since most of the biopharma industry in NC is centered in the Triangle and points east like Clayton, Greenville, Sanford, Rocky Mount.  Eli Lilly's announcement is BIG for this region and is already grabbing the attention of others considering NC.  

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12 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Vinfast is good for the state and their suppliers which might end up here in this region dittos for the Toyota battery plant up in Greensboro.  With Arrival here in the Charlotte region, Celgard already here in Charlotte and Concord and now Toyota and hopefully this Vinfast plant the whole state benefits.  NC is building an EV cluster.  Their suppliers will set up within an easy drive and this megasite is only 2 hours away or so from Charlotte and even less from this area to Toyota's Greensboro Randolph county site.  

But in Cabarrus County I found out since Eli Lilly announcement of coming to Concord suddenly Cabarrus County is getting lots of biopharma interest from other companies that say if Eli Lilly is coming there we need to look at the region.  This is big change since most of the biopharma industry in NC is centered in the Triangle and points east like Clayton, Greenville, Sanford, Rocky Mount.  Eli Lilly's announcement is BIG for this region and is already grabbing the attention of others considering NC.  

Hmmm…do you know if there are a couple of big pharma manufacturers waiting in the wings or is it just generalized interest?

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14 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

Hmmm…do you know if there are a couple of big pharma manufacturers waiting in the wings or is it just generalized interest?

Dont know names but they are calling on Cabarrus County that I know. 

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1 hour ago, atlrvr said:

I'm not sure how to asks this tactfully, so I'll just ask:. Who is interested in buying a $46k Vietnamese electric car?

Maybe not many at first, but that does remind me of the view of Hyundai and Kia when they debuted in the US market in the late 1980s.  Who’s gonna buy a car from a Korean manufacturer?   I don’t know the content level for a $46K VinFast, but a base Mustang Mach-E, Kia EV6, and VW ID.4 all start in the low-mid $40s and get 280-310 mi for range.  Vinfast VF-8 touts about 310mi range and VF-9 about 400 on the US EPA scale.  If they can load up standard features and best the range of the VAG, TSLA, Ford, etc, that’s about the best place they can hope to be to launch in the US market.  Are they gonna set the sales charts on fire right out of the gate?  Of course not.  But neither did Hyundai/Kia.  They offered more bang for the buck  and a 100K mi. warranty vs. the legacy players here and went for the long view.  And it paid off.  Gotta start somewhere. 

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43 minutes ago, turbocraig said:

Maybe not many at first, but that does remind me of the view of Hyundai and Kia when they debuted in the US market in the late 1980s.  Who’s gonna buy a car from a Korean manufacturer?   I don’t know the content level for a $46K VinFast, but a base Mustang Mach-E, Kia EV6, and VW ID.4 all start in the low-mid $40s and get 280-310 mi for range.  Vinfast VF-8 touts about 310mi range and VF-9 about 400 on the US EPA scale.  If they can load up standard features and best the range of the VAG, TSLA, Ford, etc, that’s about the best place they can hope to be to launch in the US market.  Are they gonna set the sales charts on fire right out of the gate?  Of course not.  But neither did Hyundai/Kia.  They offered more bang for the buck  and a 100K mi. warranty vs. the legacy players here and went for the long view.  And it paid off.  Gotta start somewhere. 

The price of a Vinfast does NOT include the battery. The $46k starting price is for ownership of everything on the car except the battery, which you will rent/subscribe to per month at a price that has not yet been announced. They have also not announced it you can lock in that subscription price or if it is month to month or annual. No matter what, the real monthly payments for a Vinfast will be much higher to account for the battery subscription which is required for the car to work. With a Ford, VW, Tesla, et... EV you own the battery/heart of the car and it is included in the MSRP.

They cover this in the small print while collecting the $200 deposit.

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