Economic Development - Expansions and Relocations

[kermit]

On 10/31/2022 at 9:34 AM, JeanClt said:

Although, Raleigh/Durham have a higher amount of tech jobs together.

Hmmm, yea, ok…

Talking about tech jobs in the Triangle using Raleigh alone is much like talking about finance employment in Charlotte, but leaving out uptown. The 60-80,000 tech jobs in RTP may be in Durham county but they are certainly part of the Raleigh labor market.

Edited November 1, 2022 by kermit

[KJHburg]

story in Business Facilities about Truist and their innovation hub here in Charlotte.

https://businessfacilities.com/2022/10/innovation-hubs-for-new-ideas/

[JRCLT]

Hmmm, yea, ok…
Talking about tech jobs in the Triangle using Raleigh alone is much like talking about finance employment in Charlotte, but leaving out uptown. The 60-80,000 tech jobs in RTP are technically in Durham county but are certainly part of the Raleigh labor market.

Don’t shoot the messenger now! Haha, just giving the statistics and how what Barren said is in fact true. The Triangle and Raleigh aren’t one in the same…

[BarrenLucidity]

Most people still have a pre-2019 view of Charlotte but since then CLT has posted more tech jobs than RTP, every year, and it's considered a technology hub that flies below the radar. 

https://www.charlottestories.com/charlotte-ranked-as-the-1-tech-town-in-america/

https://www.zdnet.com/education/computers-tech/tech-jobs-in-charlotte/

By and large you find mostly "web 2.0" jobs in RTP and you're gonna find corporate, fintech, and startup/"web 3.0" jobs in CLT. 

At the end of the day CLT is growing too quickly across the board for RTP to keep up. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by BarrenLucidity

[15895]

5 hours ago, BarrenLucidity said:

Most people still have a pre-2019 view of Charlotte but since then CLT has posted more tech jobs than RTP, every year, and it's considered a technology hub that flies below the radar. 

https://www.charlottestories.com/charlotte-ranked-as-the-1-tech-town-in-america/

https://www.zdnet.com/education/computers-tech/tech-jobs-in-charlotte/

By and large you find mostly "web 2.0" jobs in RTP and you're gonna find corporate, fintech, and startup/"web 3.0" jobs in CLT. 

At the end of the day CLT is growing too quickly across the board for RTP to keep up. 

Everywhere is a tech hub, no? What city doesn’t have some stat that puts their city high in the tech scene? Charlotte seems no more significant than Kansas City, Detroit or nearly any other cities near its size.

What RTP lacks in sheer jobs number, it makes up for the type of tech and bio life sciences they do have. Its a significant player in that world. Its like saying Charlotte isn’t in the top 10 of financial centers in the US and that Atlanta is a larger financial center IMO.  I think a lot of us here would tout the “2nd largest” data point rather than 13th or whatever. 

In the tech world, I think, the *Research* Triangle Park is in the conversation with Boston, Silicon Valley, Washington, Seattle. Charlotte is more in the conversation with Kansas City. That’s not under the radar, it’s just Charlotte’s tech IMO is a function of a world that is increasingly just more tech in general. There’s not much research coming from Charlotte like there is from the research triangle park. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[JRCLT]

Comparing Charlotte and Raleigh again on which is better is recipe for feelings hurt and heated discussion that is rather unnecessary. Each has their own Pros and Cons and don’t really need to be discussed since they are overall very different cities with different focuses.

[RANYC]

32 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

Comparing Charlotte and Raleigh again on which is better is recipe for feelings hurt and heated discussion that is rather unnecessary. Each has their own Pros and Cons and don’t really need to be discussed since they are overall very different cities with different focuses.

Whose feelings are we tip-toeing around?  There’s nothing to take personally here, but nothing wrong with discussing positioning of both cities.  The volume and variety of hiring and open role activity using postings as a data source isn’t anything to be angry about.

 I’ve had 5 NY-based, large asset managers looking into 2nd “HQ” locations for mostly non-investment talent ask about any talent strategy implications of being in Charlotte versus Raleigh, when considering the Carolinas.  Two of the 5 did move forward with South Florida, however.

My sense is that Raleigh owns more of the branding as a “high-tech” hub, whereas Charlotte is still sort of getting its footing from a branding perspective.  Charlotte may have to take on Raleigh somewhat to get its name out there.  By “take on,” I mean have the answer to the question of “we know Raleigh for our tech needs having decided on the Carolinas, but why Charlotte?”

Frankly, the fact that Charlotte is only 2.5 hours away from the Triangle might actually be helping Charlotte’s prospects as a hub.  The Triangle is so well known with such deeply entrenched favorability, that it’s a pretty light leap to suggest the decision-makers scope charlotte into the search as well given its close proximity.

Edited November 1, 2022 by RANYC

[RANYC]

40 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Everywhere is a tech hub, no? What city doesn’t have some stat that puts their city high in the tech scene? Charlotte seems no more significant than Kansas City, Detroit or nearly any other cities near its size.

What RTP lacks in sheer jobs number, it makes up for the type of tech and bio life sciences they do have. Its a significant player in that world. Its like saying Charlotte isn’t in the top 10 of financial centers in the US and that Atlanta is a larger financial center IMO.  I think a lot of us here would tout the “2nd largest” data point rather than 13th or whatever. 

In the tech world, I think, the *Research* Triangle Park is in the conversation with Boston, Silicon Valley, Washington, Seattle. Charlotte is more in the conversation with Kansas City. That’s not under the radar, it’s just Charlotte’s tech IMO is a function of a world that is increasingly just more tech in general. There’s not much research coming from Charlotte like there is from the research triangle park. 

I’d agree here.  Everything is tech these days.  Being a hub, however, probably connotes a healthy concentration of cutting-edge/pioneering high-tech with a vast innovation ecosystem, which would include renowned PhD programs and peer-reviewed research creation in tech-related specialties.  While some of this may sit in Charlotte’s large corporates to a degree, it’s unclear to me there’s much of this outside of such corporate departments.

It’s like fashion hubs.  They’re not hubs because they sell more garments or even make more garments, but they’re generally thought of as hubs because of the concentration of the avant-garde with their runway events that showcase creations most don’t like or would wear.

I love Charlotte.  I just don’t see much of an avant-garde sensibility.  That’s fine for me because I’m pretty lame and don’t require much.

[KJHburg]

NC is #4  as best place for business according to Site Selection Magazine where we were #1 last year.   Virginia, Georgia and Texas came in ahead of us.  

From the Triad Biz Journal:

""Site Selection had picked North Carolina as best from 2005 through 2010, then No. 2 for five straight years. In 2020, it tied with Georgia for the top spot, and then had No. 1 to itself in 2021.

In addition to surveying corporate site selectors and real estate executives, Site Selection bases its annual ranking on criteria derived from corporate facility investment information in a database of corporate expansion projects maintained by Conway Analytics, as well as external sources related to taxation, infrastructure, tech employment and the startup ecosystem.

North Carolina ranked second, behind Tennessee, in the magazine’s survey of site selector executives based on their experience of locating projects.

According to Site Selection, workforce skills remained the most important criterion to site selectors for the seventh consecutive year. Next were state and local tax structure and workforce development, followed by transportation infrastructure and ease of permitting and regulatory procedures.

More specifically, factors included total qualifying projects in 2021 cumulatively and per capita as shown in Conway’s database; total projects year to date in 2022 cumulatively and per capita; state business-tax data in 2022 from the Tax Foundation; the new data point of Inc. 5000 firms cumulative and per capita data; performance in the Rankings that Matter in Site Selections January 2022 State of the States report; Cyberstates 2022 tech employment and percentage of overall employment; and projects and funding in the infrastructure bill passed by Congress in September as reported by the General Services Administration.""

https://siteselection.com/issues/2022/nov/the-2022-business-climate-rankings-cover.cfm

However it is noted that NC is always in the top  best states to do business in and it does vary sometimes.    TN and SC are #15 and #12 respectively in this list. 

 

[Mid South NC]

18 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

NC is #4  as best place for business according to Site Selection Magazine where we were #1 last year.   Virginia, Georgia and Texas came in ahead of us.  

From the Triad Biz Journal:

""Site Selection had picked North Carolina as best from 2005 through 2010, then No. 2 for five straight years. In 2020, it tied with Georgia for the top spot, and then had No. 1 to itself in 2021.

In addition to surveying corporate site selectors and real estate executives, Site Selection bases its annual ranking on criteria derived from corporate facility investment information in a database of corporate expansion projects maintained by Conway Analytics, as well as external sources related to taxation, infrastructure, tech employment and the startup ecosystem.

North Carolina ranked second, behind Tennessee, in the magazine’s survey of site selector executives based on their experience of locating projects.

According to Site Selection, workforce skills remained the most important criterion to site selectors for the seventh consecutive year. Next were state and local tax structure and workforce development, followed by transportation infrastructure and ease of permitting and regulatory procedures.

More specifically, factors included total qualifying projects in 2021 cumulatively and per capita as shown in Conway’s database; total projects year to date in 2022 cumulatively and per capita; state business-tax data in 2022 from the Tax Foundation; the new data point of Inc. 5000 firms cumulative and per capita data; performance in the Rankings that Matter in Site Selections January 2022 State of the States report; Cyberstates 2022 tech employment and percentage of overall employment; and projects and funding in the infrastructure bill passed by Congress in September as reported by the General Services Administration.""

https://siteselection.com/issues/2022/nov/the-2022-business-climate-rankings-cover.cfm

However it is noted that NC is always in the top  best states to do business in and it does vary sometimes.    TN and SC are #15 and #12 respectively in this list. 

 

A list becomes boring if #1 stays the same all the time. Hence the rotation. No one from the other states would subscribe or pay attention if NC was #1 continuously. They will change their formula if necessary. True story.

[Reverie39]

On 11/1/2022 at 12:18 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

Everywhere is a tech hub, no? What city doesn’t have some stat that puts their city high in the tech scene? Charlotte seems no more significant than Kansas City, Detroit or nearly any other cities near its size.

What RTP lacks in sheer jobs number, it makes up for the type of tech and bio life sciences they do have. Its a significant player in that world. Its like saying Charlotte isn’t in the top 10 of financial centers in the US and that Atlanta is a larger financial center IMO.  I think a lot of us here would tout the “2nd largest” data point rather than 13th or whatever. 

In the tech world, I think, the *Research* Triangle Park is in the conversation with Boston, Silicon Valley, Washington, Seattle. Charlotte is more in the conversation with Kansas City. That’s not under the radar, it’s just Charlotte’s tech IMO is a function of a world that is increasingly just more tech in general. There’s not much research coming from Charlotte like there is from the research triangle park. 

Agreed, and that's totally fine. Not everywhere needs to be a "tech hub". It's one of a hundred important industries that a city can specialize in. 

[KJHburg]

This study ranks SC and NC number 1 and 2 as best manufacturing states in country with the rest of the top 5 TN VA and GA the usual suspects.

anyway since EDPNC said 80% of their prospects are now manufacturing this bodes well for the Charlotte region straddling the NC SC state line.

https://info.siteselectiongroup.com/blog/best-states-for-manufacturing-in-2022

I know some think these rankings don't matter but they do when you rank consistently near the top people and decision makers take notice.

 

[KJHburg]

from a Biz Journal on the Charlotte Regional Business Alliance which is now calling their econ development team Select CLT

""Chavez and Select CLT are actively tracking their most active projects, ones they are most ardently pursuing. According to that tracking, the 10 most active projects represent 10,900 potential new jobs, $6 billion in capital investment, 2.89 million square feet of industrial and office space, and a split of 18% office projects and 82% industrial. ""

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/11/03/clt-alliance-danny-chavez-economic-development.html

this is good for the region but not adding big office users and this mirrors what the state as a whole is seeing.  Many of these manufacturing jobs will go to surrounding counties as Meck has limited industrial land to develop.  

Edited November 4, 2022 by KJHburg

[KJHburg]

Major job and investment announcement slated for today in Catawba County.  $1 B in investment.  More than likely manufacturing I would think.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/major-announcement-catawba-county-expected-wednesday/Y5UU4LU7RRAMJA6P323HPYUZII/

[KJHburg]

5 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Major job and investment announcement slated for today in Catawba County.  $1 B in investment.  More than likely manufacturing I would think.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/major-announcement-catawba-county-expected-wednesday/Y5UU4LU7RRAMJA6P323HPYUZII/

this  reportedly is a technology company which leads me to believe it is some massive Apple expansion here in their Maiden data center which is already huge. 

this is who is in the meeting today at 4 pm lots of towns and multiple companies.

2.    Convene Boards
a.    Catawba County, Confirm Quorum                Chair Randy Isenhower
b.    City of Conover, Confirm Quorum                Mayor Kyle Hayman
c.    City of Hickory, Confirm Quorum                Mayor Hank Guess
d.    Town of Maiden, Confirm Quorum                Mayor Max Bumgarner, Jr.
e.    Property Development Corp., Confirm Quorum        Chair Joe Beaman

3.    Projects Dogwood, Agate, Yoga, Pine and Star Overview and 
Incentive Proposal                             Scott Millar, EDC President
 

Edited November 9, 2022 by KJHburg

[KJHburg]

this is great for the region!

BREAKING: Microsoft is the company behind Project Dogwood, local leaders just disclosed.

The proposed project calls for a minimum $1 billion investment within 10 years and spans four sites totaling 687 acres across Catawba County.   From Twitter. 

Must be huge data centers which are high value projects but somewhat light on the jobs front.  However the Apple data center campus has a couple of hundred workers and is the biggest taxpayer in the county.  

[kermit]

9 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

this is great for the region!

BREAKING: Microsoft is the company behind Project Dogwood, local leaders just disclosed.

The proposed project calls for a minimum $1 billion investment within 10 years and spans four sites totaling 687 acres across Catawba County.   From Twitter. 

Must be huge data centers which are high value projects but somewhat light on the jobs front.  However the Apple data center campus has a couple of hundred workers and is the biggest taxpayer in the county.  

This is also very good news for the continued development of the alternative energy industry in the state. Microsoft will certainly need to spend a bunch for greenwashing. Apple’s greenwashing investments was one of the things that allowed us to develop a significant solar industry a decade ago but we have slipped since.

[KJHburg]

Apple has a large company owned solar array on the south side of Startown Rd across from their massive data center which employs 500  plus people.  Apple's investment in Catawba County is $5 Billion.   NC's low  electricity rate in the bottom 10 of 50 states and low probability of disaster makes the area west of Charlotte a good place for data centers.  The leading place in the country Loudoun County VA is now expensive and companies are looking in new areas.  Apple's great success there in Catawba County surely helps too.  

Microsoft has a huge data center campus west of Atlanta and in a smaller campus in San Antonio. 

Here is the Biz Journal article and highlights"

""Hickory will get $365 million of the investment from Projects Pine and Star. Microsoft will invest $332 million at a 160-acre site off Highway 321 and another $33 million at another 16-acre site off Tate Boulevard for those elements of the project.

Conover will get $332 million in investment, code named Project Agate, at a 219-acre site. Maiden will also draw a $332 million investment at a 292-acre site north of West Maiden Road and west of Zeb Haynes Road under the code name Project Yoga.

All of the projects in the municipalities make up Project Dogwood, which includes the county-wide investment. ""

the 4 locations are spread around the county.  

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/11/09/catawba-county-microsoft-expansion-data-center.html

Press relaase:

https://charlotteregion.com/news/2022/11/09/economic-development-news/microsoft-to-invest-1-billion-in-technology-facilities-in-catawba-county/

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by KJHburg

[JRCLT]

Apple has a large company owned solar array on the south side of Startown Rd across from their massive data center which employs 500  plus people.  Apple's investment in Catawba County is $5 Billion.   NC's low  electricity rate in the bottom 10 of 50 states and low probability of disaster makes the area west of Charlotte a good place for data centers.  The leading place in the country Loudoun County VA is now expensive and companies are looking in new areas.  Apple's great success there in Catawba County surely helps too.  
Microsoft has a huge data center campus west of Atlanta and in a smaller campus in San Antonio. 
Here is the Biz Journal article and highlights"
""Hickory will get $365 million of the investment from Projects Pine and Star. Microsoft will invest $332 million at a 160-acre site off Highway 321 and another $33 million at another 16-acre site off Tate Boulevard for those elements of the project.
Conover will get $332 million in investment, code named Project Agate, at a 219-acre site. Maiden will also draw a $332 million investment at a 292-acre site north of West Maiden Road and west of Zeb Haynes Road under the code name Project Yoga.
All of the projects in the municipalities make up Project Dogwood, which includes the county-wide investment. ""
the 4 locations are spread around the county.  
https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/11/09/catawba-county-microsoft-expansion-data-center.html
Press relaase:
https://charlotteregion.com/news/2022/11/09/economic-development-news/microsoft-to-invest-1-billion-in-technology-facilities-in-catawba-county/
 

Meta has a data center here near Charlotte in forest city as well, so that makes sense. Roughly Equivalent in travel time between Asheville and Charlotte.

[KJHburg]

Data centers are big business to the west of Charlotte yes Facebook is in Forest City, Disney and Wipro in Kings Mountain, Google has one in Lenior,  Apple in Maiden and now 4 Microsoft data centers in Catawba County.    Apple is by far the largest data center and their investment in Maiden is over $5 Billion. 

https://baxtel.com/data-center/north-carolina-data-center-corridor#:~:text=The North Carolina Data Center Corridor is a rural area,of Cleveland and Rutherford counties.

[J-Rob]

Does anyone know why these data centers from non-related companies would cluster in this region? The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the region is at lower risk to climate change impacts than areas susceptible to frequent hurricanes, tornadoes, snowstorms or wildfires? Its a fairly moderate climate protected to the west by the mountains.  I am just throwing out the only thing I could think of, but I would be interested to hear from someone more informed.

 

[SouthEndCLT811]

3 minutes ago, J-Rob said:

Does anyone know why these data centers from non-related companies would cluster in this region? The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the region is at lower risk to climate change impacts than areas susceptible to frequent hurricanes, tornadoes, snowstorms or wildfires? Its a fairly moderate climate protected to the west by the mountains.  I am just throwing out the only thing I could think of, but I would be interested to hear from someone more informed.

 

I think climate and utility expense play a large part.  Here is an article from 2018 that kind of explains it.

https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/tech-giants-building-massive-data-centers-in-north-carolina-foothills/275-610385223

Quote

"It's actually an area between the mountains and foothills where the weather's pretty stable," Panovich explained. "There's not a lot of extremes."

The climate is important because just like the fan cooling a home desktop, tech companies have to cool all their data servers in the most efficient way possible.

"We've got a lot of water access. We've got a lot of lakes, a lot of rivers," Panovich said. "These data centers, they use that water and the somewhat drier air in the foothills to cool the computers. So it's a very efficient way to cool without using a ton of energy for air conditioning."

 

[kermit]

8 hours ago, J-Rob said:

Does anyone know why these data centers from non-related companies would cluster in this region? The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the region is at lower risk to climate change impacts than areas susceptible to frequent hurricanes, tornadoes, snowstorms or wildfires? Its a fairly moderate climate protected to the west by the mountains.  I am just throwing out the only thing I could think of, but I would be interested to hear from someone more informed.

 

1) There was a very robust electric grid built in the region to support furniture and textile manufacturing. Since those plants are almost entirely gone, Duke has gobs of excess capacity.

2) because of #1, Duke is very willing to negotiate special (-very- low) rates with the server farms

3) The Western Piedmont is also the area where a large number of fiber data trunk lines converge. East coast N-S lines are are generally run along the eastern side of the Appalachians (rather than going over). This allows these server facilities to have lots of redundant connections.

4) The area is somewhat isolated from major metros and the grid disruptions they might produce. Plus is moderately protected from weather disruptions (plus Duke has a pretty good reputation for reliability). Proximity to Charlotte Douglas is also a plus when more than local labor skill is needed.

5) Water and the isothermal belt play some role --water is a necessity, isothermal is just a shrug. Cheap land is not really an issue since incentives generally make land costs irrelevant.

6) NC is more willing than most other Southern states to play ball with server farm operators with incentives due to failures luring auto assembly (and also due to Duke lobbying). IMO these incentives are a mistake, server farms would come anyway and they create -very- few jobs so its wasted money.

7) Duke's historic dependence on coal does attract the attention of climate activists which can be a big problem for consumer brand companies. Greenpeace protests here (including in Uptown) are what led Apple to do its very large alternative energy investments in Maiden. I am surprised that Facebook was not forced to follow suit. I would bet that Microsoft will be just as sensitive to climate criticism as Apple was so I suspect we will see another solar bump. Will be interesting to see if the NCGA is willing to incentivize those investments (I doubt it).

My discussions with economic development folks suggest that rates and reliability provided by Duke are, by far, the largest factor.

Edited November 10, 2022 by kermit

[Windsurfer]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

1) There was a very robust electric grid built in the region to support furniture and textile manufacturing. Since those plants are almost entirely gone Duke has gobs of excess capacity

2) because of 1, Duke is very willing to negotiate special rates with the server farms

3) The area corresponds to a large number of fiber data trunk lines which need to run along the eastern side of the Appalachians (rather than going over). This allows for lots of redundant connections.

4) The area is somewhat isolated from major metros and the grid disruptions they might produce. Plus is moderately protected from weather disruptions (plus Duke has a pretty good reputation for reliability)

5) Water and the isothermal belt play some role (water is a necessity, isothermal is just a shrug) as does cheap land

6) NC is more willing to play ball with server farm operators with incentives due to failures luring auto assembly (IMO this is a mistake by the state, server farms would come anyway and they create very few jobs so its wasted money).

7) Duke's historic dependence on coal does attract the attention of climate activists which can be a big problem for 'brand' companies. Greenpeace protests here (including in Uptown) are what led Apple to do its very large alternative energy investments. I am surprised that Facebook was not forced to follow suit. I would bet that Microsoft will be just as vulnerable to climate criticism as Apple was so I suspect we will see another solar bump. Will be interesting to see if the NCGA is willing to incentivize those investments (I doubt it).

My discussions with economic development folks suggest that rates and reliability provided by Duke are the single largest factor.

I think #5 is huge.  Having seen how Lenoir practically paid Google to take their nice cool mountain water, versus the recent uproar near where I'm living now (The Dalles, Or), it's pretty clear to me that water wars are an eventuality.  The issue up here was taping into the aquifer and dumping the heated water into The Columbia. I hope NC doesn't give away the farm--so to speak.

[abttown]

Hard not to be ambivalent towards these server farms/data centers. Speaking strictly of the Google facility in Lenoir, it hasn't done much to lift up that region. I remember my parents, who live in Caldwell county, complaining about their tax rate increasing by double digits after Google was given the go-ahead. Most of the people who work there are brought in from outside the region, so they're not providing much employment. That particular facility is fairly self-contained as well, providing an employee cafeteria so workers don't even need to venture out and support local businesses. The argument could be made that Google is siphoning off of the community (paying little to no tax, using water resources, etc) and contributing very little.