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The glut of available office space downtown


gman430

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55 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

This is why we dont currently have a 40 story high rise planned or under construction.  

There are other ways to get tall buildings beside office. We've had multiple apt projects the past few years including 100s of units that could have been new tallest buildings for DT,  but developers choose to build boxy suburban looking structures going out instead of up. There is also mixed use, and as I have opined before, One should have been 2 buildings instead of 3. We've had plenty of chances for height over the past decade but developers and powers that be have chosen to go for low rise density instead, which isn't all bad.

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Counting Elliott Davis as a loss, when they are moving within the same market to bigger space, that doesn't sound like a sign of distress. The building they are moving into is nearly filled and it is still under construction.  I would assume having the ED space still occupied makes it harder for someone to commit to it.  I doubt it will be hard to fill as it is still a pretty new building and the rate less than the newest buildings.   I can only assume the ONE site doesn't reflect the updates GADC does, because they use to have a listing for it that was in the 70-90k range, IIRC.

Nelson is moving from B of A, I think.  There will be a lot of space in that building to fill, hopefully it will not sit.    

   

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14 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

Nelson is moving from B of A, I think.  There will be a lot of space in that building to fill, hopefully it will not sit.    

   

It's been a long time, but the last time I was in 101 North Main, it was pretty dingy upstairs. I wonder if there's any appetite to convert it to some other use. Hotel or residential? The proximity to parking is quite attractive. 

Edited by GvilleSC
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4 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

It's been a long time, but the last time I was in 101 North Main, it was pretty dingy upstairs. I wonder if there's any appetite to convert it to some other use. Hotel or residential? The proximity to parking is quite attractive. 

I thought the new owners just renovated it???

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2 hours ago, distortedlogic said:

There are other ways to get tall buildings beside office. We've had multiple apt projects the past few years including 100s of units that could have been new tallest buildings for DT,  but developers choose to build boxy suburban looking structures going out instead of up. There is also mixed use, and as I have opined before, One should have been 2 buildings instead of 3. We've had plenty of chances for height over the past decade but developers and powers that be have chosen to go for low rise density instead, which isn't all bad.

There is a reason 3 ten story buildings arent combined and one 30 story building is made instead.  It is an oversimplification to say well, there are 3 buildings in that project, they could have just made one super tall structure instead.  It gets more expensive the higher you go.  Unless real estate costs make it worth going up vs going out, its not going to happen.

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2 hours ago, distortedlogic said:

There are other ways to get tall buildings beside office. We've had multiple apt projects the past few years including 100s of units that could have been new tallest buildings for DT,  but developers choose to build boxy suburban looking structures going out instead of up. There is also mixed use, and as I have opined before, One should have been 2 buildings instead of 3. We've had plenty of chances for height over the past decade but developers and powers that be have chosen to go for low rise density instead, which isn't all bad.

Re: the apt. projects: to be fair, Charlotte has the exact same kinds of buildings strewn all around Uptown. True, they also have some pretty impressive residential towers, but I'd say Camperdown and McClaren are our Greenville-scale versions of those.

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48 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

There is a reason 3 ten story buildings arent combined and one 30 story building is made instead.  It is an oversimplification to say well, there are 3 buildings in that project, they could have just made one super tall structure instead.  It gets more expensive the higher you go.  Unless real estate costs make it worth going up vs going out, its not going to happen.

100% right....building higher will cost more and demand higher rents.  If the rental amounts won’t support the higher cost, why build it.  It’s the same reason you don’t see a Hudson Yards Building in Charlotte, the rents won’t support that type of building.  And, I’m not sure Greenville needs it.  A cluster of 10-15 story buildings work well into a skyline v one large 40 story just to say “we have the tallest building in SC”.  Now, I also hate 4-5 story brick office buildings, so there is a balance. 

The other issue worth noting is that it’s nice to see tenants move around in market, it means they aren’t leaving.  However, to really grow and move the needle in growing the market, more needs to be done in attracting new companies to the market or depend on growing in-market companies

Charlotte has been to lucky to see both in companies like Lending Tree and Lowe’s while attracting new companies like Truist and Honeywell. 

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30 minutes ago, CLT_sc said:

100% right....building higher will cost more and demand higher rents.  If the rental amounts won’t support the higher cost, why build it.  It’s the same reason you don’t see a Hudson Yards Building in Charlotte, the rents won’t support that type of building.  And, I’m not sure Greenville needs it.  A cluster of 10-15 story buildings work well into a skyline v one large 40 story just to say “we have the tallest building in SC”.  Now, I also hate 4-5 story brick office buildings, so there is a balance. 

The other issue worth noting is that it’s nice to see tenants move around in market, it means they aren’t leaving.  However, to really grow and move the needle in growing the market, more needs to be done in attracting new companies to the market or depend on growing in-market companies

Charlotte has been to lucky to see both in companies like Lending Tree and Lowe’s while attracting new companies like Truist and Honeywell. 

You open a can of worms....you get ....   :w00t:

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8 hours ago, gvegascple said:

There is a reason 3 ten story buildings arent combined and one 30 story building is made instead.  It is an oversimplification to say well, there are 3 buildings in that project, they could have just made one super tall structure instead.  It gets more expensive the higher you go.  Unless real estate costs make it worth going up vs going out, its not going to happen.

You could very well be right; admittedly I don't know a lot about that kind of stuff. But that doesn't really make sense to me. If I'm building 3 ten story buildings, I have to plan and pay for 3 concepts, 3 sets of designs and blueprints, get 3 approvals, do site prep for 3 foundations/projects,  excavate 3 sites, build 3 foundations, rent equipment 3 times (or three times as many), etc, etc. If I build one 30 story building instead, I only have to do (and pay for) one each. That, in itself, would be a HUGE time and money saver, I would think. Certainly the foundation for a 30 story building would be more expensive than one for a 10 story building, but not that much more. After that, the 20th story doesn't cost anymore than the 10th  story did to build. If you were going way high, 50 or 100 stories you would certainly have more issues, but that's not what we're talking about here. 

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33 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

You could very well be right; admittedly I don't know a lot about that kind of stuff. But that doesn't really make sense to me. If I'm building 3 ten story buildings, I have to plan and pay for 3 concepts, 3 sets of designs and blueprints, get 3 approvals, do site prep for 3 foundations/projects,  excavate 3 sites, build 3 foundations, rent equipment 3 times (or three times as many), etc, etc. If I build one 30 story building instead, I only have to do (and pay for) one each. That, in itself, would be a HUGE time and money saver, I would think. Certainly the foundation for a 30 story building would be more expensive than one for a 10 story building, but not that much more. After that, the 20th story doesn't cost anymore than the 10th  story did to build. If you were going way high, 50 or 100 stories you would certainly have more issues, but that's not what we're talking about here. 

You have to remember the Aloft hotel wasn’t built by Hughes. It was built by a separate developer. 

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18 hours ago, distortedlogic said:

You could very well be right; admittedly I don't know a lot about that kind of stuff. But that doesn't really make sense to me. If I'm building 3 ten story buildings, I have to plan and pay for 3 concepts, 3 sets of designs and blueprints, get 3 approvals, do site prep for 3 foundations/projects,  excavate 3 sites, build 3 foundations, rent equipment 3 times (or three times as many), etc, etc. If I build one 30 story building instead, I only have to do (and pay for) one each. That, in itself, would be a HUGE time and money saver, I would think. Certainly the foundation for a 30 story building would be more expensive than one for a 10 story building, but not that much more. After that, the 20th story doesn't cost anymore than the 10th  story did to build. If you were going way high, 50 or 100 stories you would certainly have more issues, but that's not what we're talking about here. 

My thought is that if real estate is still cheaper to go out than up, you want to grab as much land as you can while you can as a primary driving force to land acquisition.   I would think that is what takes precedent over questions about how high.   Once you do get to how high, you have to think about filling the building, and if you can, how much will you be able to get per sq ft.  All this before you even start thinking about construction costs.  Designing a building to be safe at higher heights, The costs of materials, designing a parking garage to meet the needs of the tenants within the footprint of the building,  the cost of getting materials to where you need them, the cost of higher skilled workers, the cost of elevators.   Its a lot of factors but I would imagine real estate economics, supply and demand, and profit margins are the main ones and when there still is land sitting empty to build on, its not time to go up.

Edited by gvegascple
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So a lot of people have probably been wondering about the available office space in downtown Greenville and where it truly along with currently stands. The list below that I compiled today through online research is of the larger office buildings downtown and is up to date. It contains amount of total space, amount of available space, and the vacancy rate of each building: 

 

-One North Main Street. ONE phase I building. 175,000 square feet. 0 square feet available. 0% vacancy rate.

-Two West Washington Street. ONE phase II building. 220,000 square feet. 7,100 square feet available. 3.227% vacancy rate. 

-101 N. Main Street. BofA building. 195,907 square feet. 63,824 square feet available. 32.578% vacancy rate. 

-301 College Street. Canvas. 130,000 square feet. 130,000 square feet available. 100% vacancy rate. **space not available until June 2020**

-301 N. Main Street. Landmark/Windstream  building. 331,532 square feet. 51,165 square feet available. 15.433% vacancy rate. 

-423 S. Main Street. Camperdown. 153,767 square feet. 23,500 square feet available. 15.282% vacancy rate. **under construction**

-300 E. McBee Avenue. Prisma/Truist building. 165,195 square feet. 8,737 square feet available. 5.289% vacancy rate.

-110 E. Court Street. Erwin Penland building. 125,000 square feet. 10,724 square feet available. 8.579% vacancy rate.

-55 Beattie Place. One Liberty Square. 248,563 square feet. 16,846 square feet available. 6.777% vacancy rate.

-75 Beattie Place. Two Liberty Square. 185,658 square feet. 28,577 square feet available. 15.392 vacancy rate.

-220 N. Main Street. Hyatt building. 86,482 square feet. 30,374 square feet available. 35.121% vacancy rate.

-15 S. Main Street. Wells Fargo Center. 156,000 square feet. 21,616 square feet available. 13.856% vacancy rate. 

-104 S. Main Street. TD Bank/Poinsett Plaza building. 173,342 square feet. 64,397 square feet available. 37.150% vacancy rate. 

-55 East Camperdown Way. Bowater building. 104,040 square feet. 4,500 square feet available. 4.325% vacancy rate. 

-550 S. Main Street. Riverplace. 86,365 square feet. 17,985 square feet available. 20.824% vacancy rate.

-201 E. McBee Avenue. Synovus building. 72,128 square feet. 11,901 square feet available. 16.500% vacancy rate.

-201 W. McBee Avenue. CountyBank building. 50,560 square feet. 6,299 square feet available. 12.458% vacancy rate.

-300 N. Main Street. Ogletree building . 61,047 square feet. 1,154 square feet available. 1.890% square feet. 

-325 W. McBee Avenue. First Citizens building. 64,185 square feet. 11,411 square feet available. 17.778% vacancy rate. 

-Two North Main Street. Chartspan building. 100,000 square feet. 0 square feet available. 0% vacancy rate.

-200 E. Broad Street. Elliott Davis building. 116,511 square feet. 75,215 square feet available. 64.556% vacancy rate. **66,646 square feet of this available space will occur in October 2020 due to Elliott Davis relocating and additional office space being added on first floor.**

 

 

**Total square footage: 3,001,282

**Total available space: 585,325

**Vacancy rate: 19.502%

Edited by gman430
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The reality is DT is a pretty small office market and all it takes is one new building,  or 1-2  big players to make a move and the  vacancy rate is going to spike up or down significantly.  

Glad to see both ONE buildings nearly full.  I am surprised Landmark is as full as that.  

So basically we have four big blocks of space that is 85-90% of the total vacancy. 

1. Canvas being the biggest one [thanks BB&T].     

2. Elliott Davis and 3. B of A  lost tenants to the newest building.   

4. Poinsett Plaza  

Of these four, I would expect E-D to fill first. The building has a lost of visibility and isn't that old, yet still cheaper than ONE and Falls Tower. 

if just one of those four is filled WITHOUT anyone else leaving, then the rate would come down significantly.    

 

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I think the main reason the Landmark building isn’t more empty is due it being Class B space which makes it cheaper to rent than Class A space.

Be aware also that the current empty space at BofA does not include the BofA relocation. Same can be said for the Olgetree building with Morgan Stanley. The current empty space at the Elliott Davis building does include the Elliott Davis relocation however. 

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13 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

Where is Morgan Stanley moving to? 

So the B of A vacancy from losing the name tenant is NOT already in the vacancy rate even though the occupancy for Falls Tower does include Bank of America?   

Whoops...Morgan Stanley is NOT moving. I got them mixed up with Merrill Lynch who is leaving the same building for Camperdown. :blush: Sorry about that. 

And correct regarding BofA. The vacancy rate at BofA building does NOT include their relocation while the vacancy rate at Camperdown DOES include their lease there. Let me double check though just to make sure. I might be wrong. 

Edited by gman430
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Here is the leasing pdf file for the BofA building: https://images1.loopnet.com/d2/4ecoJPyy2L8QrXlPQ7235hKXwl-2mDwtPoRJlGNkV20/document.pdf Hard to tell whether that includes the BofA relocation or not. Maybe somebody else could confirm whether it does or not.

Edited by gman430
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1 hour ago, distortedlogic said:

Didn't Canvas decide to go back with their original plan and do apartments and condos, instead of office?

"The existing building systems are in great shape, and we’ve received significant interest from large office users," Cotter told The Greenville News. "Nevertheless, we did complete apartment retrofit plans that we may come back to down the road, but given the market and building’s conditions we are excited to re-tenant the building as commercial.”

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  • 4 months later...

Yeesh: https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/local/greenville/downtown/2020/07/01/chartspan-healthcare-relocate-greenville-sc-office-move-remote-workforce/5351266002/ Downtown is gonna have wayyy too much empty office space within the next year thanks to this, Camperdown, Canvas, etc. I don’t know how any of it is going to get filled either with companies doing work from home now along with the pandemic putting a halt to any relocations or expansions.

Edited by gman430
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1 hour ago, gman430 said:

Yeesh: https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/local/greenville/downtown/2020/07/01/chartspan-healthcare-relocate-greenville-sc-office-move-remote-workforce/5351266002/ Downtown is gonna have wayyy too much empty office space within the next year thanks to this, Camperdown, Canvas, etc. I don’t know how any of it is going to get filled either with companies doing work from home now along with the pandemic putting a halt to any relocations or expansions.

This is one of the interesting aspects of having a service and manufacturing focused economy.  I wonder how larger higher cost of living cities that have a huge office workforce will fare once this thing is through.  Companies are finally realizing that having all their employees report to a physical workspace 5 days a week isn't all that necessary anymore.

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