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HankStrong

I4 - Beyond the Ultimate [Pre-construction]

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Of all the politicians I’ve known, Rick Scott is truly the most like a Bond villain. He cares for nothing but money.

As much as I dislike The Donald, he is at least human. He may only care about his tribe but at least he cares about someone.

Rick Scott is just completely and totally amoral. His only reason for existence is to make more money for himself no matter who or what gets run over in the process.

Even the Frists at HCA figured that out at the end and they are hardly the definition of warm and fuzzy themselves.

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4 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Florida did, for awhile, give a lot of tax breaks and other financial incentives to the motion picture industry and we were getting a good bit of that business as well as other parts of the entertainment industry it attracted. But then, because Rick whatsizface (Governor Skeletor) and his cronies in the legislature didn't like the idea of those entertainment industry lib'rul types plying their anti-conservative values in our state, because it didn't jibe with their vision of Florida as a red state bastion of God-fearin', gun-totin', Republican-votin' straight-shooters, they put an end to those tax breaks and chased a very lucrative industry that was providing a lot of high paying jobs, both directly and indirectly via the ripple effect, out of our state and straight up to Georgia and other neighboring states, who welcomed them with open arms and plenty of incentives, and are now reaping the economic benefits the morons who run this state felt they were too good for. But listen to them talk, and they'll tell you all about how great they've been for Florida. 

I think its terrible that states and municipalities feel they need to throw money at these businesses that people like to see, that are hugely profitable without it and have no need for it. Every time they're given a tax incentive, that means others have to pay more to make up for them not paying. The movie jobs are the worst, since they are all temporary by their very nature. If taxes are too high for these businesses to consider Florida, we need to re-evaluate what our taxes are for all businesses and make it make sense without sweetheart deals, whether its too conservative or liberal groups. (I say tax churches, tax the movie studios, tax everyone, but at a much lower rate then we do today, so that way there is some sense of fairness)

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Florida did, for awhile, give a lot of tax breaks and other financial incentives to the motion picture industry and we were getting a good bit of that business as well as other parts of the entertainment industry it attracted. But then, because Rick whatsizface (Governor Skeletor) and his cronies in the legislature didn't like the idea of those entertainment industry lib'rul types plying their anti-conservative values in our state, because it didn't jibe with their vision of Florida as a red state bastion of God-fearin', gun-totin', Republican-votin' straight-shooters, they put an end to those tax breaks and chased a very lucrative industry that was providing a lot of high paying jobs, both directly and indirectly via the ripple effect, out of our state and straight up to Georgia and other neighboring states, who welcomed them with open arms and plenty of incentives, and are now reaping the economic benefits the morons who run this state felt they were too good for. But listen to them talk, and they'll tell you all about how great they've been for Florida. 

It’s worth noting that much of the Orlando TV/film production dried up because incentives were eliminated, but there are other forces at play in some cases, namely internal corporate turmoil.

To use one of the examples another poster mentioned above, Nick Studios didn’t leave because they lost subsidies to film in Florida at USF, they left because corporate leadership churned and they didn’t see the value in filming there when other, more traditional studios existed in other parts of the country within the Viacom machine. Viacom is not an attractions entertainment company, they’re a content company so it was probably a little of, “what do we do with this weird hybrid studio/attraction?”

They also didn’t see the long game in their B2B relationship with Universal. Maybe it would have meant sticking it out on the backlot a little longer, but that would have given themselves and Universal time to figure out how to fold Nick more significantly into the parks in the future.

That’s just one example, but the timing of it all means this example gets lumped in with the broader narrative that production left due to incentives drying up. In fact, that had little to do with it at all.
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47 minutes ago, orlandoguy said:

That’s just one example, but the timing of it all means this example gets lumped in with the broader narrative that production left due to incentives drying up. In fact, that had little to do with it at all.

While it's certainly true that other factors were involved, to say that lack of incentives "had little to do with it at all" is a quite an exaggeration.

From Florida Today:

Quote

 

No state incentives mean fewer films, TV shows made in Florida

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2017/02/24/no-state-incentives-mean-fewer-films-tv-shows-made-florida/98316384/

As part of a promotional effort for the Oscar-nominated, space-themed film "Hidden Figures," its stars and others connected with the movie visited Kennedy Space Center in December.

But the irony is that no scenes from the film were shot at KSC — or anywhere else on the Space Coast, for that matter — except for historic stock footage.

Space Coast Film Commissioner Bonnie King said people connected with the film had contacted her to talk about locations for filming on the Space Coast. But, largely because Florida no longer offers incentives for film and television productions, "the higher-ups decided not to film here."

Instead, much of "Hidden Figures" was shot in Atlanta and other locations in Georgia, a state that has "fantastic film incentives" that make it attractive to shoot movies there, King said. Those incentives include transferable tax credits for the film productions.

John Lux, is the executive director of the film, television and digital-media industry trade association Film Florida.

Film Florida estimates that Brevard County's economy lost $10 million because "Hidden Figures" was shot in Georgia, rather than the Space Coast.

Two other big local losses that Film Florida cites:

$25 million because the television series "The Astronaut Wives Club" was shot in Louisiana and Mississippi, rather than the Space Coast. The 2015 series — which ran for 10 episodes before being canceled — focused on the wives of the original "Mercury 7" astronauts.

King said the beaches near Gulfport, Mississippi, were used to as a stand-in for Cocoa Beach.

$16 million because the proposed television series "Cocoa Beach" was not put into production, which King said was partly because of the lack of incentives. King said "Cocoa Beach" was to be based on a book by NBC space correspondent Jay Barbree called "Live From Cape Canaveral."

"In the last three-plus years, Florida has lost more than 50 film and TV projects that wanted to come to Florida, but were not able to because of the lack of a funded program," Lux said. "Those projects would have spent more than $875 million in Florida and used more than 140,000 hotel room nights."

King said the economic losses are not only the salaries of film crew that might be hired locally, but also could include such things as the renting of hotel rooms, the hiring of construction workers to build sets, and the hiring of caterers to feed the cast and crew.

Lux said the decision of the producers of the HBO football-focused television series "Ballers" to leave South Florida for California was primarily based on the end of incentives from Florida. He said the decision is costing Florida is more than $20 million in spending per production season, more than 2,800 Florida jobs, more than 1,000 hotel room nights per season and another 3,000 nights of condo/short-term rental uses per season.

 

Way to go, Skeletor. :thumbsup:

Way to put your strident, ideological purity ahead of the economic good of the state you were supposed to be working for the good of.

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Rick Scott is a crook, but paying rich people to film in our areas for temporary "jobs" is not exactly a fantastic long-term economic plan, either. 

I like our beaches just fine without the additional exploitation. 

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@JFW - Reading it again, my wording is somewhat oblique. When I said the State film incentives had little to do with it at all, I was referencing Nick Studios leaving the Universal back lot, not the larger pull out of film production in Florida in general.

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1 hour ago, dcluley98 said:

Rick Scott is a crook, but paying rich people to film in our areas for temporary "jobs" is not exactly a fantastic long-term economic plan, either. 

I like our beaches just fine without the additional exploitation. 

But it's not just "paying rich people to film in our areas". 

It affects other industries and local businesses as well, who privide services to that industry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_effect

Should we also say construction "jobs" shouldn't be valued either, given their always temporary nature. 

The thing is, that when one temporary job ends, another one soon begins or has already begun and is hiring. One could earn a good, steady income for years working at these temporary "jobs". 

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19 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

But it's not just "paying rich people to film in our areas". 

It affects other industries and local businesses as well, who privide services to that industry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_effect

Should we also say construction "jobs" shouldn't be valued either, given their always temporary nature. 

The thing is, that when one temporary job ends, another one soon begins or has already begun and is hiring. One could earn a good, steady income for years working at these temporary "jobs". 

We also never know what kind of spinoffs will emerge to grow our economy. 

Simulation wasn’t a thing for either Martin in 1957 or WDW in 1971, but the presence of those two companies led to our major east-side job creator years later. It’s an industry in which Orlando is now recognized as a leader.

Meanwhile, the chip industry that was going to be the key to our future, disappeared almost as fast as it took to build a huge facility for it off JYP.

It has been pointed out that, “Hollywood didn’t make LA - aerospace did. Hollywood made Los Angeles INTERESTING.”

Cities like Atlanta, Nashville and Austin have all used entertainment successfully  to give them the “it” factor that helped them stand out from their peer cities.

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1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

But it's not just "paying rich people to film in our areas". 

It affects other industries and local businesses as well, who privide services to that industry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_effect

Should we also say construction "jobs" shouldn't be valued either, given their always temporary nature. 

The thing is, that when one temporary job ends, another one soon begins or has already begun and is hiring. One could earn a good, steady income for years working at these temporary "jobs". 

I'm not saying we shouldn't value economic activity or temporary jobs. Any job is a good job to somebody looking for work. 

I am saying we should not be subsidizing these "job creators" at the expense of other things. There is a cost to everything. And Costs ~= $

Costs may be time, suffering, maintenance, traffic, pollution, worry, etc. 

Defining the costs and benefits of everything and trying to find efficiency is paramount to knowing what is really happening. Capitalism likes to maximize profits and ignore the undefined costs.

It is an inefficient method. I don't think we should be in the business of paying cash subsidies for initiating more temporary jobs while ignoring the other inherent costs/benefits that may occur from this activity. 

Sometimes no activity is a better activity. 

Edited by dcluley98

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12 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

I'm not saying we shouldn't value economic activity or temporary jobs. Any job is a good job to somebody looking for work. 

I am saying we should not be subsidizing these "job creators" at the expense of other things. There is a cost to everything. And Costs ~= $

Costs may be time, suffering, maintenance, traffic, pollution, worry, etc. 

Defining the costs and benefits of everything and trying to find efficiency is paramount to knowing what is really happening. Capitalism likes to maximize profits and ignore the undefined costs.

It is an inefficient method. I don't think we should be in the business of paying cash subsidies for initiating more temporary jobs while ignoring the other inherent costs/benefits that may occur from this activity. 

Sometimes no activity is a better activity. 

Well I'm not talking about just handing them wads of cash (or wads of checks) either.

I'm talking about tax breaks and eliminating various permit requirements, and the elimination or reduction of various fees and charges, etc,  that together, add up to quite an increase in production costs for them. 

Like when cities give similar tax breaks and incentives to big developers to put up high rise buildings or when counties give tax breaks and incentives to theme parks to build attractions or corporations to build manufacturing plants, etc, etc.

That's just the way the game is played.

Florida should right now have a growing and thriving film industry. We should occasionally be seeing film crews set up around downtown and elsewhere, shooting scenes for major TV shows and movies. 

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4 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Well I'm not talking about just handing them wads of cash (or wads of checks) either.

I'm talking about tax breaks and eliminating various permit requirements, and the elimination or reduction of various fees and charges, etc,  that together, add up to quite an increase in production costs for them. 

Like when cities give similar tax breaks and incentives to big developers to put up high rise buildings or when counties give tax breaks and incentives to theme parks to build attractions or corporations to build manufacturing plants, etc, etc.

That's just the way the game is played.

Florida should right now have a growing and thriving film industry. We should occasionally be seeing film crews set up around downtown and elsewhere, shooting scenes for major TV shows and movies. 

Rick Scott was pro eliminating permitting requirements, fees, and charges that you are talking about, he was only against eliminating direct tax breaks and incentives and handing them wads of cash. Its the same argument made by sports teams like the Magic, that the players and supporting staff are highly paid, good jobs, it makes lots of jobs for the difficult to employ as event staff... and your money will be well spent making temporary construction jobs, so you should give a half a billion dollars towards building a stadium that we won't pay adequate rent for. There will be a star arena in the city (that will be beat out by the next city being asked for the same thing next year)... when thats just giving Richard DeVos a half a billion dollars. I'm glad Orlando City showed they could do it the right way. Sports teams aren't just going to abandon the Florida market if the state doesn't give incentives. There are still several films being shot in Florida as well. Sure, it'd be more if we handed out money, but Florida doesn't exactly have a high unemployment rate right now anyways. We don't need to hand out money, or give them tax breaks that means some other Floridian is going to have to pay instead of that out of state firm.

Edited by aent
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32 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

Just a reminder that there is a politics thread.

Don’t be messin’ with Hank’s thread or he’ll throw one of those brise stones at ya!

To his point, we do have a thread for LOCAL and Florida politics in the Coffee House as well as the “Just Wow” thread to exercise your fevered MAGA fantasies (pro or con) as well as anything else that’s on your mind.

The challenge of course is that everything happening in transportation (at least at the state level) is tied up in political ideology.

This isn’t new - whether to use tolls or tax-based funds was widely debated regarding the  interstate system during the Eisenhower administration (and in fact goes back to debates between the Whigs and Jacksonian Democrats in the 1800s). The transit debate is covering much the same ground.

Let’s all try and do better and keep our OCD folks from a complete meltdown. I’m committed to keep trying!

 

Edited by spenser1058

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Fair point.  They are inbred.

 

My only thing is that we're here with diverse opinions, but we're all focused on making our metro better.  Politics just divide to an extreme degree.

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This project was written up in WSJ 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-interstate-is-crumbling-try-fixing-the-section-used-by-200-000-vehicles-a-day-11559056024?

Some quotes I found interesting

  • Four workers have been killed on the project, an atypical toll according to one analyst. 
  • Under the contract, the builder must keep the same number of lanes operating during the day as there were before construction started. The result is a repeatedly altered traffic flow, with on-ramps and off-ramps periodically shut down and detours posted.
  • Like Florida, many other states face billion-dollar outlays to unsnarl just a few miles of aging interstate. Colorado is working on a $1.2 billion upgrade of less than 10 miles of I-25 through Denver. Nevada is undertaking a nearly $1 billion refurbishment of four miles of I-15 in Las Vegas. Wisconsin is wrapping up a six-year, $1.7 billion overhaul of an interchange in suburban Milwaukee.
  • The project is the biggest public-private partnership in Florida history and one of the largest roadway projects in the country.
  • Skanska, the lead contractor, said it took a $100 million writedown in a recent quarter because of cost overruns in two public-private partnerships in the U.S. It wouldn’t identify them, but its only two such projects under construction in the U.S. are I-4 and some work at New York’s LaGuardia Airport. Skanska said recently it would no longer bid on public-private partnerships as an equity partner in the U.S.
Edited by Jvest55

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The whole project was set up with unnecessary complexity due to the Lexus Lanes because Tallahassee simply refused to increase the gas tax (which is paid in significant portions by tourists.) 

it had nothing to do with efficiency, it was an ideological issue. Further, in the long run, the state and its users will pay back more than they would have using traditional methods. Ironically, it was Dwight Eisenhower who figured that out in the ‘50’s.

But, here we are, running the state like a business!

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1 hour ago, Jvest55 said:

Colorado is working on a $1.2 billion upgrade of less than 10 miles of I-25 through Denver.

Those 10 miles are some of the worst I've ever driven.

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17 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The whole project was set up with unnecessary complexity due to the Lexus Lanes because Tallahassee simply refused to increase the gas tax (which is paid in significant portions by tourists.) 

it had nothing to do with efficiency, it was an ideological issue. Further, in the long run, the state and its users will pay back more than they would have using traditional methods. Ironically, it was Dwight Eisenhower who figured that out in the ‘50’s.

But, here we are, running the state like a business!

So far, the express lane dynamic tolling system has been shown to increase throughput by much more then just adding 2 lanes when the road is suffering from congestion. It worked well in Miami, much better then anyone expected, and the fact that it increased Miami's traffic flow on both the free and premium lanes so much is why FDOT loves them now. Orlando's  getting jersey barriers and more space between the lanes, but how much did that really add to the cost over adding the 2 lanes? I personally far prefer the free lane/premium lane setup, as it brings the laws of economics to roadways and helps prioritize traffic flow, and doesn't charge the poor and non-users of the system more.

Its extremely rare any giant road project doesn't run into cost overruns and massive delays... I-4 is hardly unique with that. At least it should hopefully be all be thrown on the private company rather then the taxpayers and delaying other needed projects.

Edited by aent
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they should've just closed the whole interstate, bulldoze it, and rebuild it from scratch... would've been done by 2017 

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23 hours ago, aent said:

So far, the express lane dynamic tolling system has been shown to increase throughput by much more then just adding 2 lanes when the road is suffering from congestion. It worked well in Miami, much better then anyone expected, and the fact that it increased Miami's traffic flow on both the free and premium lanes so much is why FDOT loves them now. Orlando's  getting jersey barriers and more space between the lanes, but how much did that really add to the cost over adding the 2 lanes? I personally far prefer the free lane/premium lane setup, as it brings the laws of economics to roadways and helps prioritize traffic flow, and doesn't charge the poor and non-users of the system more.

Its extremely rare any giant road project doesn't run into cost overruns and massive delays... I-4 is hardly unique with that. At least it should hopefully be all be thrown on the private company rather then the taxpayers and delaying other needed projects.

I'm hoping they don't default like the roadbuilder doing Wekiva Pkwy and SR 528 just did.

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10 hours ago, W7edwin said:

they should've just closed the whole interstate, bulldoze it, and rebuild it from scratch... would've been done by 2017 

lol is this sarcasm? 

I’m really interested in the landscaping that they apply to this when it is all done, knowing Orlando we are going to get some generic ass landscaping.

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On 5/29/2019 at 8:01 AM, aent said:

So far, the express lane dynamic tolling system has been shown to increase throughput by much more then just adding 2 lanes when the road is suffering from congestion. It worked well in Miami, much better then anyone expected, and the fact that it increased Miami's traffic flow on both the free and premium lanes so much is why FDOT loves them now. Orlando's  getting jersey barriers and more space between the lanes, but how much did that really add to the cost over adding the 2 lanes? I personally far prefer the free lane/premium lane setup, as it brings the laws of economics to roadways and helps prioritize traffic flow, and doesn't charge the poor and non-users of the system more.

Its extremely rare any giant road project doesn't run into cost overruns and massive delays... I-4 is hardly unique with that. At least it should hopefully be all be thrown on the private company rather then the taxpayers and delaying other needed projects.

It's comical to me that we're having to suffer through years of traffic, but we're keeping the exact same number of free lanes and just adding another way for the state to make money off of people using the primary thruway in Central Florida. I know i'll be lambasted for this, but it would be nice if something as basic as getting around didn't have to be based on a tiered pay system that people defend as a great way for the state to make money instead of, I dunno, a road to get to and from work. How about we just widen the darn highway and keep all of the lanes free and we not try and collect yet more money off of people........ sorry, just annoyed. This project has annoyed me since they announced it. Sorry, but i'm not excited whatsoever about a free road becoming a partial toll road.

Edited by Xander
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7 minutes ago, Urban25 said:

lol is this sarcasm? 

I’m really interested in the landscaping that they apply to this when it is all done, knowing Orlando we are going to get some generic ass landscaping.

I know they really hyped it. A couple of years ago, my stepfather who lives in Omaha sent me an article about how eco-friendly the project was and the great landscaping it will have.  Just now, pulling up the email for the link, I see my unsent draft of a response about how removing a few non-native plants is nice, but not tearing out hundred-year-old oaks and cypress would have been much better. 

 https://www.hdrinc.com/news-and-events/news/2017/fdots-i-4-ultimate-p3-improvement-project-earns-envision-platinum?hero=

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