Society | 28- & 17-Story Residential [Under Construction]

[JFW657]

9 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

@popsiclebrandon and @IAmFloridaBorn what is it that makes this project so loath some. What, specifically, do you not like.

Sure, let's list all the great projects "Mayor Bill" steered... I can think of 2.

Aside from being involved in bringing the NBA to Orlando and possibly in the design of the first O-Rena, which, if we're being hypercritical of mayors here, was built woefully too small to begin with, something I understand why it happened, but hey.... the game here is dumping on less than perfect mayors, so... anyway, I can't think of the 2nd one.

Barnett Plaza? Atlantic Bank? The Refrigerator? Examples of visionary architecture guided by The Hand of Frederick?

Also, as I recall, Frederick was mayor when Jaymont gave Orlando the finger and backed out of their plans to build what would have been an iconic 30 story tower on Church and Orange all because of the city's meddling and trying to force them to screw up their design by incorporating those two ratty old dime store facades into it.

Vision? 

[popsiclebrandon]

21 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

@popsiclebrandon and @IAmFloridaBorn what is it that makes this project so loath some. What, specifically, do you not like.

Sure, let's list all the great projects "Mayor Bill" steered... I can think of 2.

Ugly and stubby in a style that is only going to get worse. Ground floor apts with doors are tough sells next to a bus depot.

 

I think strong chance the new MAA apts going up now will be the worst of them all with a good economy (at least for now) and being given concessions by the city to build that stubby mess.

[JFW657]

11 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

It was an overall approach to what downtown could be. Things as little as the swans at Eola. Things like what the arena would look like (the old arena was good looking as a building; the new one looks like a Walmart). The drive to save the close-in neighborhoods, which is one of the unique features of our downtown. The attempt to build density by limiting development in areas adjoining the core. And yes, using the bully pulpit to get the plaza in front of Jaymont II and to vary the corner of Central and Orange by turning the Atlantic Bank building at an angle.

Some of those things needed additional work in subsequent administrations. It didn’t happen in Glenda’s because she got bogged down in trying to save light rail and working on Baldwin Park.

In Buddy’s case, he just abdicated any vision to the highest bidder. Look, if you think this is the best downtown can be, bless your heart. It wasn’t the only option, however.

We aren't in the 1980's anymore. 

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, JFW657 said:

Aside from being involved in bringing the NBA to Orlando and possibly in the design of the first O-Rena, which, if we're being hypercritical of mayors here, was built woefully too small to begin with, something I understand why it happened, but hey.... the game here is dumping on less than perfect mayors, so... anyway, I can't think of the 2nd one.

Barnett Plaza? Atlantic Bank? The Refrigerator? Examples of visionary architecture guided by The Hand of Frederick?

Also, as I recall, Frederick was mayor when Jaymont gave Orlando the finger and backed out of their plans to build what would have been an iconic 30 story tower on Church and Orange all because of the city's meddling and trying to force them to screw up their design by incorporating those two ratty old dime store facades into it.

Vision? 

The Refrigerator was in planning under Mayor Langford. The major dustup over saving the Jaymont Block was under Glenda.

Nevertheless, downtown was dead when Mayor Bill was elected. He started with a very different hand (and economy) than Buddy did. Don’t confuse the history. Also, for the record, the O-rena was built to NBA specs. At the time, the idea was to make them small and intimate. The owners couldn’t make the profits they wanted so they threw out the model. After all, they had mayors like Buddy to give the billionaires what they wanted.

[orlandouprise]

18 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Ugly and stubby in a style that is only going to get worse. Ground floor apts with doors are tough sells next to a bus depot.

 

I think strong chance the new MAA apts going up now will be the worst of them all with a good economy (at least for now) and being given concessions by the city to build that stubby mess.

MAA?

[JFW657]

14 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

The Refrigerator was in planning under Mayor Langford. The major dustup over saving the Jaymont Block was under Glenda.

Nevertheless, downtown was dead when Mayor Bill was elected. He started with a very different hand (and economy) than Buddy did. Don’t confuse the history. Also, for the record, the O-rena was built to NBA specs. At the time, the idea was to make them small and intimate. The owners couldn’t make the profits they wanted so they threw out the model. After all, they had mayors like Buddy to give the billionaires what they wanted.

Hood was elected in '92. As I recall, the Jaymont proposal for that block and subsequent failure, happened closer to 1990.

Re: the O-Rena, why did other cities who built arenas around the same time build theirs with seating capacities closer to 20,000 or more? Building to NBA minimum standards does not justify building too small.

.

Edited March 9, 2020 by JFW657

[bqknight]

7 minutes ago, orlandouprise said:

MAA?

Orange & Robinson, 10 story building. 

[spenser1058]

33 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Hood was elected in '92. As I recall, the Jaymont proposal for that block and subsequent failure, happened closer to 1990.

Re: the O-Rena, why did other cities who built arenas around the same time build theirs with seating capacities closer to 20,000 or more? Building to NBA minimum standards does not justify building too small.

.

The Frederick folks were trying to reach a compromise acceptable to both sides in the early days. Jaymont (who also gave us the Barnett Bank building you so loathe - why do you think this one would be better?) took a “My way or the highway” stance. That’s not how cities work.

As to the arena, Orlando was the smallest of the four cities. The NBA was hopeful of our potential but not at all certain how it would fly. Again, the city bent over backward to give Commissioner Stern what he wanted (frankly, they were afraid not to). 

Edited March 9, 2020 by spenser1058

[jack]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

And there you hit the nail on the head. Initially, we were told the same thing about saving the close-in neighborhoods. Mayor Bill proved that the city had the ability to determine what our downtown would look like.

Buddy’s never done that. He is perfectly content to let any developer do what (s)he he wants. The only time he really veered from that was with the Eola 5. Buddy knew that his re-election could be affected by the activists on that (given the way he has set up elections, there will rarely be a 15% turnout; if he keeps a small active group happy, he’s a lock for four more years). Other than that, if he doesn’t alienate the cops and firefighters and overawes any opposition with dollars from developers, he’s good. Nothing will ever change, and the  local construction industry is content. We have the downtown you’d expect from that arrangement. It has been different in the past, though.

Not Glenda - Mayor Bill.

The close in neighborhoods were protected by the citizens. Citizens in those neighborhoods had a goal to stop the upzoning of their neighborhoods. Central station built to zoning requirements. 

[JFW657]

12 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

The Frederick folks were trying to reach a compromise acceptable to both sides in the early days. Jaymont (who also gave us the Barnett Bank building you so loathe - why do you think this one would be better?) took a “My way or the highway” stance. That’s not how cities work.

Aside from the fact that I have never once in my life ever expressed loathing for the Barnett Bank building, you are rewriting history (again) on the subject of the Jaymont block and the demolition of the two old derelict dime store buildings....

This may be a bit small to read, but I believe the way this forum's software works is that, if you click on the image it will open it in a new window which you can zoom in on while retaining clarity and resolution....

...at any rate, according to this article dated November 1989, three years prior to Hood, BTW, it sounds like Jaymont were the ones trying to accommodate the city, not the other way around. If anyone was adopting a "my way or the highway" attitude, it was the preservationists.

12 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

As to the arena, Orlando was the smallest of the four cities. The NBA was hopeful of our potential but not at all certain how it would fly. Again, the city bent over backward to give Commissioner Stern what he wanted (frankly, they were afraid not to). 

I seriously doubt and cannot believe that the NBA would restrict the size of an arena any city might want to  build or the number of seats they might want to incorporate into it, or if they legally even could. Certainly they could establish a MINIMUM seating capacity, but why would they even care about building a bigger facility than was potentially needed?

Doesn't even sound plausible.

The issue was the same issue it always is here in Orlando ..... money.

A 17,000 seat facility was the biggest we could raise capital for.

Period.

 

[jack]

1 hour ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Ugly and stubby in a style that is only going to get worse. Ground floor apts with doors are tough sells next to a bus depot.

 

I think strong chance the new MAA apts going up now will be the worst of them all with a good economy (at least for now) and being given concessions by the city to build that stubby mess.

Its a large building with tons of units. All of those small units will needs parking creating a large mass for the garage. If it was underground, it would look very different. 

Or, if the site was bigger. 

[popsiclebrandon]

7 minutes ago, jack said:

Its a large building with tons of units. All of those small units will needs parking creating a large mass for the garage. If it was underground, it would look very different. 

Or, if the site was bigger. 

What building are you talking about? Combined the two I'm discussing are only 600 units.

[spenser1058]

20 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Aside from the fact that I have never once in my life ever expressed loathing for the Barnett Bank building, you are rewriting history (again) on the subject of the Jaymont block and the demolition of the two old derelict dime store buildings....

This may be a bit small to read, but I believe the way this forum's software works is that, if you click on the image it will open it in a new window which you can zoom in on while retaining clarity and resolution....

...at any rate, according to this article dated November 1989, three years prior to Hood, BTW, it sounds like Jaymont were the ones trying to accommodate the city, not the other way around. If anyone was adopting a "my way or the highway" attitude, it was the preservationists.

I seriously doubt and cannot believe that the NBA would restrict the size of an arena any city might want to  build or the number of seats they might want to incorporate into it, or if they legally even could. Certainly they could establish a MINIMUM seating capacity, but why would they even care about building a bigger facility than was potentially needed?

Doesn't even sound plausible.

The issue was the same issue it always is here in Orlando ..... money.

A 17,000 seat facility was the biggest we could raise capital for.

Period.

 

You just berated the Barnett Bank building a few posts back along with Atlantic Bank and The Refrigerator - sure sounded like you didn’t think much of it.

As to the Arena, the NBA was absolutely trying to follow in the footsteps of MLB’s Camden Yards at the time and Orlando seemed a perfect place to do it. The NBA was calling the shots then, not the city (remember, Stern could have just pulled the plug).

The preservationists believed they had the upper hand originally but City Hall let us know at the time they were looking at a compromise. That resulted in moving from saving the buildings to saving the facades. 

By that time, it was on to Glenda. Glenda was a big believer in neighborhoods and she, along with much of the staff, couldn’t figure out why Jaymont was so adamant against working with us. Jaymont’s PR had always pretended to be conciliatory but in fact they never gave an inch. Of course, they had an ace up their sleeve: demolition by neglect. That’s what preservationists had been afraid of from the start.

 

[JFW657]

5 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

You just berated the Barnett Bank building a few posts back along with Atlantic Bank and The Refrigerator - sure sounded like you didn’t think much of it.

"Berated"? 

Do you know the definition of the word berate or is hyperbole just a part of your debate style?

My implication was that I don't see it as an example of the  so-called "vision" you claim was possessed by previous mayors like your "worshipped, beloved and adored idol" (see I can do that too) Bill Frederick.

5 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

As to the Arena, the NBA was absolutely trying to follow in the footsteps of MLB’s Camden Yards at the time and Orlando seemed a perfect place to do it. The NBA was calling the shots then, not the city (remember, Stern could have just pulled the plug).

Again, there is no evidence or history of the NBA or any other sports league other than World Cup Soccer, limiting the size of multi-use public buildings that a city can build. If a city wants and can afford to construct a larger arena building that they might want to use during the off season for some other purpose, I cannot see a sports league office telling them they cannot do so.  

17 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

The preservationists believed they had the upper hand originally but City Hall let us know at the time they were looking at a compromise. That resulted in moving from saving the buildings to saving the facades. 

By that time, it was on to Glenda. Glenda was a big believer in neighborhoods and she, along with much of the staff, couldn’t figure out why Jaymont was so adamant against working with us. Jaymont’s PR had always pretended to be conciliatory but in fact they never gave an inch. Of course, they had an ace up their sleeve: demolition by neglect. That’s what preservationists had been afraid of from the start.

The 1989 OS article in the screenshot I posted does not reflect what you are trying to claim.

From the article:

Quote

"It looks as if the developer is making a real effort on this project" said planning board member Bill Hunter

But I suppose you know better... 

[jack]

46 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

What building are you talking about? Combined the two I'm discussing are only 600 units.

600 units is a lot. All of the existing buildings downtown are less than 400 units and most are around 300. 

[popsiclebrandon]

38 minutes ago, jack said:

600 units is a lot. All of the existing buildings downtown are less than 400 units and most are around 300. 

I feel like we're talking about different projects. Central station is under 300 and the new MAA one is barely above.

I just don't think Orlando got a good deal with 2 short ugly buildings. Especially giving MAA a break on the law for retail requirements. We're basically out of spots to build on Orange and we wasted 2 on these projects.

[bqknight]

1 minute ago, popsiclebrandon said:

I feel like we're talking about different projects. Central station is under 300 and the new MAA one is barely above.

I just don't think Orlando got a good deal with 2 short ugly buildings. Especially giving MAA a break on the law for retail requirements. We're basically out of spots to build on Orange and we wasted 2 on these projects.

I think some people thought you didn't like Society Orlando - when I believe you meant you didn't care for Central Station or the new MAA project. 

[jack]

I was talking about golden sparrow. 

[popsiclebrandon]

1 minute ago, jack said:

I was talking about golden sparrow. 

If it really happens fully I love that project. I've been talking about how bad Central Station and MAA projects are.

[JFW657]

1 minute ago, popsiclebrandon said:

If it really happens fully I love that project. I've been talking about how bad Central Station and MAA projects are.

I think most of us won't be holding our breath for phase 2/tower 3, whatever it's called.

Or not any time very soon.

I'm envisioning two wide looking upper buildings offset on a chunky pedestal for a good 5 - 10 years.

[bqknight]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

I think most of us won't be holding our breath for phase 2/tower 3, whatever it's called.

Or not any time very soon.

I'm envisioning two wide looking upper buildings offset on a chunky pedestal for a good 5 - 10 years.

The press releases and site make it seem like 1+2 are being built together. May just be spin though. 

[spenser1058]

I’m still bummed that if they change the name I won’t be able to break out in a chorus of “Keep Your Eye On the Sparrow” whenever there’s a post (*don’t do it*)...

 

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, bqknight said:

The press releases and site make it seem like 1+2 are being built together. May just be spin though. 

Yeah, I think they are.

What I meant was that phase 2 is tower 3.

That's the one I have doubts about happening any time soon.

[spenser1058]

While we’re pondering how tall it will be, everybody sing!

https://youtu.be/BA-g8YYPKVo

 

[Jerry95]

18 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

I don't know if you hate that building more than I do but I have to reserve my comments about the building because they are not forum appropriate.

It may not be as tall as it should be but I use the retail in that building significantly more than most of the other mixed use developments.