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19 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

just got back from Miami...man they are on a whole 'nother  level. Brickell is breathtaking. The skyline coming into Miami from Miami Beach on the 836 looks like a mini Manhattan!

Agreed. Miami is unbelievable to look at. Aesthetically (and from a distance), I would say only New York, Chicago, and mayybbeeee San Francisco rival it. It’s simply gorgeous.

On the other hand, I would NEVER EVER want to live there.

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Birmingham used to be bigger than Orlando but over the years there’s been a pretty big reversal as we rocketed from the 50th largest MSA in 1980 to 22nd today. Holding down the 50th spot now and with growth in the low single digits is the home of Vulcan (one of the coolest mountaintop sculptures around) and a downtown UAB campus that makes me swoon.

Downtown B’ham is undergoing a renaissance- first, a downtown Publix and now they pass us by with a sizable local market in the former Parisian.

Great move for the Magic City!

https://www.al.com/bhammag/2019/07/see-inside-downtowns-newest-grocery-store-and-cafe.html?outputType=amp

From AL.com

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A 20-story office tower is underway as part of the Water St. complex in downtown Tampa.

The St. Pete Times notes it’s the first center city office tower in about a quarter of a century. Apparently, when it comes to offices, downtown Tampa and Orlando are matched pretty well in terms of new construction.

Water Street Tampa starts work on 20-story office tower

https://www.tampabay.com/business/water-street-tampa-starts-work-on-20-story-office-tower-20190709/

 
 

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The outraged lady at having to change her drivers license on the news was an embarrassment. Hey, whydontchamovethen? Ya didn't when they went to 4 lanes years ago. Get over yourself. Lol

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11 hours ago, jgardnerucf said:

The outraged lady at having to change her drivers license on the news was an embarrassment. Hey, whydontchamovethen? Ya didn't when they went to 4 lanes years ago. Get over yourself. Lol

What are we talking about?

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More stick-frame construction and shrinking apartments - the scourge of Orlando renters is alive and well for Tampa and St. Pete, too:

https://www.tampabay.com/florida/2019/07/24/heres-why-most-of-tampa-bays-new-apartments-are-wood-frame-with-smaller-units-and-higher-rents/?template=amp

From the St Pete Times 

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St. Pete’s Albert Whitted Airport  offers some ways our own Herndon Airport could consider making positive changes for the community and remain viable.

Interestingly, Orlando’s own GAI Consultants is making the proposals:

https://www.tampabay.com/business/albert-whitted-airport-plan-for-the-future-to-look-at-extending-runway-20190725/

From the St Pete Times 

Edited by spenser1058

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Well, here’s the debate all wrapped up in a not-so-pretty little bow:

Jacksonville has spent untold millions to demolish a broad chunk of what is arguably Florida’s most historic big city downtown that once featured retail, entertainment, office and hotel towers, etc.

Now, they want to provide $233 million in subsidies to a pro sports owner to build sterile retail, entertainment, office and hotel towers, etc. in a parking lot next to the Gator Bowl.

Somewhere, Robert Moses is smiling and Jane Jacobs is saying, “what in the world?”

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/are-you-okay-investing-233-million-for-lot-j/

From The Jaxson 

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6 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Well, here’s the debate all wrapped up in a not-so-pretty little bow:

Jacksonville has spent untold millions to demolish a broad chunk of what is arguably Florida’s most historic big city downtown that once featured retail, entertainment, office and hotel towers, etc.

Now, they want to provide $233 million in subsidies to a pro sports owner to build sterile retail, entertainment, office and hotel towers, etc. in a parking lot next to the Gator Bowl.

Somewhere, Robert Moses is smiling and Jane Jacobs is saying, “what in the world?”

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/are-you-okay-investing-233-million-for-lot-j/

From The Jaxson 

I could certainly quibble about the dollar amount being too high, but I think the overall project is a great idea for Jax. The only way they can get people downtown is to be a destination. They have TIAA Field and Daily's Place is a decent (though not great) music venue that gets top national tours. The problem is visitors drive into the area, attend their event and leave. This Lot J project is a portion of the $2.5 billion Kahn (Jags owner) wants to develop- read that to mean the City will likely spend more before it is all done. Lot J will have a "Live" venue ran by the same people that do the ones in Louisville, Norfolk, St. Louis and KC and they are all doing well and have helped revitalize their areas. It will also have hotels, condos and retail. That is if it is approved by the investment board.

We would kill to have this project as the MEC.

https://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/20190803/saturday-editorial-lot-j-development-is-exciting-for-downtown

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/lot-j-development-includes-more-than-dollar230-million-in-city-incentives

 

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29 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

I could certainly quibble about the dollar amount being too high, but I think the overall project is a great idea for Jax. The only way they can get people downtown is to be a destination. They have TIAA Field and Daily's Place is a decent (though not great) music venue that gets top national tours. The problem is visitors drive into the area, attend their event and leave. This Lot J project is a portion of the $2.5 billion Kahn (Jags owner) wants to develop- read that to mean the City will likely spend more before it is all done. Lot J will have a "Live" venue ran by the same people that do the ones in Louisville, Norfolk, St. Louis and KC and they are all doing well and have helped revitalize their areas. It will also have hotels, condos and retail. That is if it is approved by the investment board.

We would kill to have this project as the MEC.

https://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/20190803/saturday-editorial-lot-j-development-is-exciting-for-downtown

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/lot-j-development-includes-more-than-dollar230-million-in-city-incentives

 

The question is - would we want the MEC if it meant tearing down most of today’s downtown Orlando to get it? That’s  what Jacksonville’s city government has in effect been doing for the last couple of decades.

As we’ve seen over and over again, these mega-projects almost never put down the roots of organic projects. That’s why places like Thornton Park and Riverside/Avondale (in Jax) both came back from near dead while places like Parramore, with one big project after another, still doesn’t work. Oh, and the same argument applies to the resurrection of Miami Beach vs. Daytona’s beachside.

But hey, the suits will line their pockets and come back in 20 years demanding a larger stadium in Southside Jax and the cycle will repeat.

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14 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The question is - would we want the MEC if it meant tearing down most of today’s downtown Orlando to get it? That’s  what Jacksonville’s city government has in effect been doing for the last couple of decades.

As we’ve seen over and over again, these mega-projects almost never put down the roots of organic projects. That’s why places like Thornton Park and Riverside/Avondale (in Jax) both came back from near dead while places like Parramore, with one big project after another, still doesn’t work. Oh, and the same argument applies to the resurrection of Miami Beach vs. Daytona’s beachside.

But hey, the suits will line their pockets and come back in 20 years demanding a larger stadium in Southside Jax and the cycle will repeat. 

Based on comments in other threads I think we may have a few members with no qualms in tearing down everything west of I4 for a development like this. My point is, what are they tearing down, where is it and what will be the end result should factor into the equation.

In the case of Jax you are right they have spent decades ruining the downtown, but at this point that has little to do with the large vacant lot as it is now. The current elected officials are not the same ones responsible for the past 2 decades of damage and are now working with the tools they have. This area of Jax may grow organically, but it has not shown any signs of improvement in the 30 years I've visited it. If the City wants improvement there they will need to make sizable investment in hopes to move the needle. Or, they can wait another 30 years and see what happens.

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KJHburg notes in the Charlotte room (Learning From Other Places in their Coffee House, p. 23 of the thread) that Miami is getting a new office tower.

As we discovered recently with Tampa, it seems this is Miami’s first office tower in a decade or so (Miami’s explosion of towers has been residential and hotels). 

Apparently, this has been a thing in various places and our Lincoln towers at least have us in the game, even if they’re not particularly tall.

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3 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Based on comments in other threads I think we may have a few members with no qualms in tearing down everything west of I4 for a development like this. My point is, what are they tearing down, where is it and what will be the end result should factor into the equation.

In the case of Jax you are right they have spent decades ruining the downtown, but at this point that has little to do with the large vacant lot as it is now. The current elected officials are not the same ones responsible for the past 2 decades of damage and are now working with the tools they have. This area of Jax may grow organically, but it has not shown any signs of improvement in the 30 years I've visited it. If the City wants improvement there they will need to make sizable investment in hopes to move the needle. Or, they can wait another 30 years and see what happens.

I’m no major fan of gentrification (it has a lot of merits and it has a lot of downsides) but I’d be in favor of demolishing everything west of I-4 if it meant a new entertainment district. Is a historic district still a net positive if it’s crime-ridden, blighted, and a stain on the City Beautiful moniker?

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32 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Is a historic district still a net positive if it’s crime-ridden, blighted, and a stain on the City Beautiful moniker?

That is a reasonable question that I think various reasonable people could have varying reasonable answers. I, for one, would disagree that is the best way to deal with the area. However, I would definitely welcome this type of project to be worked into the area and allow the market to work out the kinks (which i guess would be called gentrification).

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