Paramount Tower, 65-68 stories, approx. 750', 200 units, $240 million, Church Street Park

[CandyAisles]

2 minutes ago, ZestyEd said:

Someone may have already answered this. But what is the Hermitage Hotel afraid of?  Why the resistance?  Didn't seem they cared about the parks up keep before. 

I would imagine they complain about the park as much as anyone as they have guests and patrons that could benefit from its usefulness.  I could see a scenario where they might want to own the land and deed it to a trust that could dictate what happens there.  We may never know though.  Should be interesting to see how the City Council plays out on this.

[PruneTracy]

6 minutes ago, CandyAisles said:

I think the Public Facility (library) across the street could be integral to the discussion in programming...

Don't forget, the library has its own courtyard that's about half the size of this park.

[CandyAisles]

Just now, PruneTracy said:

Don't forget, the library has its own courtyard that's about half the size of this park.

I actually did forget that.  I still think that if the city wanted to make a concerted effort into making this park work, the library would have to play a key role.  If no one is willing to do this then bring on 65 stories!

[titanhog]

3 hours ago, CandyAisles said:

I think the Public Facility (library) across the street could be integral to the discussion in programming...as could the Ryman, the Hermitage Hotel, Suntrust Bank, heck I could see Cheekwood doing a sponsored series out in the park.  I'm not necessarily against the tower proposal, but what I have a hard time believing is that there has ever been a capable attempt of making the park work.  Paley Park is very close to the New York Public Library yet that seems to work just fine.

Pretty sure this is at least the 3rd attempt at making this park work.  Each time, totally redone and given the "this time is will work" city seal of approval.  Then...it fails.

[CandyAisles]

7 minutes ago, titanhog said:

Pretty sure this is at least the 3rd attempt at making this park work.  Each time, totally redone and given the "this time is will work" city seal of approval.  Then...it fails.

Whole sale disagree here. Very poor attempts at making this work. “Let’s put in some grass and some trees” is not an appropriate urbanist response.

 

[titanhog]

2 hours ago, CandyAisles said:

Whole sale disagree here. Very poor attempts at making this work. “Let’s put in some grass and some trees” is not an appropriate urbanist response.

 

Well...I'll wholesale disagree with you back.   Guess we'll see.  If they give it a "4th try", it won't take but a few short years to see if they finally got it right. And...btw...not EVERY location in an urban downtown is appropriate for a park.  Just maybe, this exact location is not the best location?

[DDIG]

Just now, titanhog said:

Well...I'll wholesale disagree with you back.   Guess we'll see.  If they give it a "4th try", it won't take but a few short years to see if they finally got it right. And...btw...not EVERY location in an urban downtown is appropriate for a park.  Just maybe, this exact location is not the best location?

 

I’m also annoyed nobody cared about making this park work as junkies ran free in it for about ten years until a tower was proposed. Oh wait now we will come up with a vision that will work this time...

[Buildtall]

If people would stop catering to the homeless maybe we wouldn’t have this problem. Why should they work when they can lay around the park all day and use the facilities at the library when they want. They all know where to go to get all there meals for free and they have several options to go spend the night if they  choose  to go.  Most if not all of them have cell phones. The only thing none of them seem to not have is the will or desire to work and why should they when there are all these idiots giving them everything they need enabling them to do nothing for themselves.

[smeagolsfree]

The third time should have been the charm. The problem is you cant keep the people out of a public area that most of the public are afraid of. Many of these people have mental issue and that in itself keeps most folks away, because who wants to bring their kids around someone talking to themselves or screaming at the top of their lungs or pushing 2 grocery carts of belongings around with them taking an entire park bench.

Most people know what normal is and a lot of the people that hang out in the park just are not normal as you cant get within 10 feet of them because of the stench from not bathing and the Metro cops just stand there and make sure they dont get too out of hand. 

 

[japan]

10 hours ago, Buildtall said:

If people would stop catering to the homeless maybe we wouldn’t have this problem. Why should they work when they can lay around the park all day and use the facilities at the library when they want. They all know where to go to get all there meals for free and they have several options to go spend the night if they  choose  to go.  Most if not all of them have cell phones. The only thing none of them seem to not have is the will or desire to work and why should they when there are all these idiots giving them everything they need enabling them to do nothing for themselves.

Kind of hard to prevent them from using the public restrooms.  I'd prefer they use them than urinate or defecate in public like what's going on in NYC.

[BnaBreaker]

There are obviously no easy answers to the homelessness issue, and an already complicated issue is made vastly moreso by the fact that, as @smeagolsfree mentioned, many homeless people are mentally ill, which is why it is a bit silly in my mind to suggest that the answer is simply to 'stop giving them stuff and they'll all go get a job.'  I don't doubt that there are some bad apples out there who really are just lazy vagabonds content to mooch off of handouts.  But for the majority of the homeless out there, if they could 'just go get a job' then I imagine most of them would do that today if it meant they didn't have to sleep under a tarp outdoors in winter.   Even if mental illness isn't part of the equation, homelessness can become a viscous cycle that isn't easy to break.  I don't like seeing public spaces taken over by people (homeless or not) who are consistently conducting generally anti-social behavior either, but I do think that one of the primary problems is that society in general doesn't approach the issue of homelessness with a sense of compassion.  The homeless are looked down upon with disdain by most, and as animals that should be herded away by many.  When I say compassion I don't mean giving them handouts every time they approach you.  Being a frequent pedestrian in Chicago myself, I'd be broke if I did that.  But we as a society could definitely help the situation if we stopped looking at them as wild beasts and started seeing them for what most of them really are; fellow human beings who have been dealt a bad hand in life.   Let's get serious about providing much more diversity in housing options, from temporary homeless housing, to transitional housing, to affordable low and middle income housing.  Let's get serious about funding mental health research and local mental health institutions.  Let's get serious about providing better job training programs.  Let's get serious, instead of just pretending that the problem will effectively be solved if we could only shove them all out of sight underneath the same highway overpass.   I realize there are no silver bullet solutions, and I realize that some homeless people don't exactly make it easy to feel compassion for them, but there is much more we could be doing to help the situation than complaining about their stench.  

Edited January 26, 2019 by BnaBreaker

[satalac]

With the land swap deal, there is at least a plan for the homeless to have a safe place to live. With the continuation of the park...well, they stay in the park. 

[smeagolsfree]

With the land swap there will be a place for them to go it seems during the day with the Homeless Service Center. There they should be able to take a shower and get a meal I am thinking. Without the swap, this will most likely not happen.

[bigeasy]

On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 10:06 AM, BnaBreaker said:

There are obviously no easy answers to the homelessness issue, and an already complicated issue is made vastly moreso by the fact that, as @smeagolsfree mentioned, many homeless people are mentally ill, which is why it is a bit silly in my mind to suggest that the answer is simply to 'stop giving them stuff and they'll all go get a job.'  I don't doubt that there are some bad apples out there who really are just lazy vagabonds content to mooch off of handouts.  But for the majority of the homeless out there, if they could 'just go get a job' then I imagine most of them would do that today if it meant they didn't have to sleep under a tarp outdoors in winter.   

This is one reason I love the apparel company Project 615 and highly recommend everyone else check out their stuff. They are really involved with the homeless community in town and have been great at finding opportunities to employ them. The company has employed 50 people in recovery from homelessness, addiction, and mental illness. So the apparel you buy from them is typically handled by someone who was homeless from anything such as the screen printing to packaging. Over 7 years they have donated about $100K to help rehabilitate the homeless in Nashville. So they aren't just giving money to them or food, which is a short term solution, but they are investing in them so that their life can be changed long term.

[NashvilleObserver]

On 1/25/2019 at 6:35 PM, titanhog said:

Pretty sure this is at least the 3rd attempt at making this park work.  Each time, totally redone and given the "this time is will work" city seal of approval.  Then...it fails.

I don't understand the discussion about making the park "work" though. Any way it is designed, the purpose is to draw people to it to enjoy. If "working" means it draws tourists/residents instead of homeless people then no possible design of this park is going to change that. If there is space to lie down, any grass, anything to sit on or take shelter under, homeless people will continue to gather.  

I wish the Civic Design Center, and others, would  stop fighting this, support the land swap, and give these people a place to gather that will really help them beyond simply handing them one plate of food per day. 

[PillowTalk4]

On 1/25/2019 at 4:33 PM, CandyAisles said:

I think the Public Facility (library) across the street could be integral to the discussion in programming...as could the Ryman, the Hermitage Hotel, Suntrust Bank, heck I could see Cheekwood doing a sponsored series out in the park.  I'm not necessarily against the tower proposal, but what I have a hard time believing is that there has ever been a capable attempt of making the park work.  Paley Park is very close to the New York Public Library yet that seems to work just fine.

I've sat in Paley Park to eat a quick bite and by comparison it's a pocket park surrounded by buildings on three sides.  If I recall correctly, Paley Park is also in a different block than the NYC library you're referring  to which is not one of their major branches like the one at Bryant Park further south down 5th Ave.  The Bryant Park library location would probably be more of a comparison to the Nashville Public Library on Church Street.  Also, Paley Park happens to be in an area that includes high end residential buildings, retail shops and restaurants.  I must also add that while NYC has a homeless issue, it appears to be more of an issue in the subway stations than in parks.  Quite honestly, I'm always amazed at how NYC seems to manage their homeless issue.  Maybe they just don't let homeless people congregate in certain parts of the city.  I don't know.  But I travel there several times a year and I rarely come face to face with a homeless person on the streets.  It's typically been in the subway stations.  Some of the stations are like underground camp grounds for the homeless.  I'm assuming it's because it gets them out of the elements.   There are very few restrooms in the subway system in NYC and where public facilities exist they don't often work or they are closed off.

I like the idea of a park on Church Street.  It's unfortunate that the city hasn't been able to manage it in a manner that keeps homeless people or anyone else from generally congregating in the space for extended periods of time.  I don't think redesigning it or even offering events in the park will change that.  Without constant patrolling of the park it will more than likely always be a spot for homeless people to gather.

[Bos2Nash]

The  argument about the homeless center being such a great perk of this deal is ridiculous. It is going to happen with or without this development. It just so happens that it would happen quicker and Nashville would have to give up a prized land asset to make it happen.  Ultimately with the location that is planned, the homeless population will prolly just spill more onto the sidewalks in be more visible to people. 

Project 615 is one of the great organizations in the city. Proceeds from every purchase including their larger donations have helped so many. I spent a good amount of money with them for Christmas this year for family around the country.

[Bos2Nash]

Zoning and building codes have increased the safety and reliability of housing and other structures. The “burdens” you describe far outweigh the benefits of not having them. 

Also, Facebook is telling me supporters are stepping up their game and paying for Facebook ad space

[markhollin]

For those curious, here is the Goettsch Partners (architect for Paramount Tower) website.  It features a few samples of their other work around the globe.

https://gpchicago.com/

[DDIG]

48 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Zoning and building codes have increased the safety and reliability of housing and other structures. The “burdens” you describe far outweigh the benefits of not having them. 

Also, Facebook is telling me supporters are stepping up their game and paying for Facebook ad space

Have we seen that image before?

[Armacing]

47 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Zoning and building codes have increased the safety and reliability of housing and other structures. The “burdens” you describe far outweigh the benefits of not having them. 

You are correct about Zoning/Building improving safety/reliability.  As for what is more beneficial v/s burdensome, that is a matter of opinion.  Personally, I am not homeless, but if I was, I might be inclined to disagree with your assessment of the burdens.

However, what we are certain of is that zoning laws and building codes are ultimately enforced via the use of police force (violence).  Thus, a supporter of zoning is someone who advocates the use of violence to prevent people from building houses they disapprove of.   In contrast, a homeless person who makes themselves not homeless by building a shanty out of salvaged materials is not advocating or inflicting violence on anyone.  Therefore, they have the moral high-ground - - they are the ones being violently oppressed by supporters of zoning/codes like yourself.

[smeagolsfree]

Just let calm heads prevail here folks and dont get too out of hand. I realize this project has a lot of moving parts and involves a lot of issues so that is why I am letting things sort of flow. Just keep it civil.

[dmillsphoto]

Guess Neo leaving my moderator capabilities in place comes in handy still.

[BnaBreaker]

Oh thank goodness that discussion on urban planning was banished from an urban planning discussion forum.  Now this thread can sit idle and silent the way god intended, I guess?!   

Seriously though, what was gained?  I wasn't even a part of the conversation that was moved, but somebody is going to need to explain to me why some people always get their panties so bunched up whenever a thread discussion is not 100% reflective of the thread title.  Is that not just how conversations between human beings work?  I can understand a conversation being deleted or moved if a discussion gets combative or obscene or just devolves into a five page discussion on Spongebob Squarepants.  But I swear, anytime anyone gets the least bit spirited or anytime people start to get silly and make jokes back and forth for an extended period of time someone inevitably gets grumpy or offended or uneasy and shows up to put a stop to it, as if somehow not being a part of a conversation they weren't a part of to begin with has some sort of a negative impact on their lives.  

Like I said, I'm not trying to be combative here, but please, for once and for all can somebody... anybody... perhaps someone who will inevitably passive aggressively click the 'down arrow' button on this post instead of just answering my question... please explain to me what the big freakin' deal would be if we were to just let conversations flow naturally (to a point, of course?)  

I like to think of this as a community, of sorts, and like to think of you all as friends, but for me at least the fun can really be sucked right out of this forum when discussions are forced arbitrarily down such extremely specific paths that can only be about ONE THING and can only include robotic analytical comments about building height or parking garage cladding.  Can we just be allowed to be people??

Anyway, sorry,  but I had to say something, because that has bothered me for quite a long time.  And this isn't directed at the moderators either.  Their job is to respond to and address complaints and they do a great job at it.  This is a question for that group who always does the complaining.  I hope I get an answer.  

Edited January 31, 2019 by BnaBreaker

[Craiger]

That's exactly what the coffee house area is for. You can be people while these threads stay on topic. That conversation had strayed completely away from the proposed tower. It was a discussion about zoning laws at a high level. Go create a Zoning Law topic in Coffee House and have a blast while I use this thread to learn about updates regarding the Paramount Tower. 

 

If Coffee House is where conversations go to die, that's probably because most people aren't interested in the conversation. They just want to come here and learn about Nashville development.