Orlando Magic

[Uncommon]

On 12/26/2021 at 6:37 PM, spenser1058 said:

7-27. What this wonderful “strategy” (which the Sentinel has chronicled as going on now off and on for the better part of a decade) has achieved thus far is dubious. No doubt, if they keep on “tanking” for another decade or so, maybe they’ll hit the big time. After all, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Perhaps more concerning is that the Magic are now in the bottom 20% in the NBA for attendance. No doubt that’s supremely helpful for Downtown, right?

In the Orlando History thread today, Joy Wallace Dickinson notes that Bob Snow’s Rosie O’Grady’s presaged the resurrection of downtown with what became his Church Street Station entertainment complex (Rosie’s,  btw, came on line a bit less than two years after  he closed on the property).

Meanwhile, the Magic, who have been entrusted with downtown’s next entertainment complex, have twiddled their thumbs for how many years now? Heck, even Buddy concedes we have a problem downtown.

But, hey, we have to give the DeVos  family kudos for their consistency, right? Congratulations!

Omg give it a rest already.

[spenser1058]

11 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Omg give it a rest already.

Embrace incompetence, right?!?

[Uncommon]

4 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Embrace incompetence, right?!?

Aren’t you in Jacksonville now or something?

[elefants]

48 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Embrace incompetence, right?!?

You're out of your element.   This is the first time in years that the administration hasn't looked incompetent.  The DeVos family sucks.  The MEC is a joke.  John Hammond and Jeff Weltman are making all the right moves with what they've been given to work with and they're doing very well.

[spenser1058]

Just now, elefants said:

You're out of your element.   This is the first time in years that the administration hasn't looked incompetent.  The DeVos family sucks.  The MEC is a joke.  John Hammond and Jeff Weltman are making all the right moves with what they've been given to work with and they're doing very well.

How many times have we heard this again?  It’s like a worn out recording of a favorite song, to quote Bertie Higgins. Results matter. 

[elefants]

10 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

How many times have we heard this again?  It’s like a worn out recording of a favorite song, to quote Bertie Higgins. Results matter. 

I don't know.  How many times have you heard this?  The results are there if you know what you're looking for.

[spenser1058]

The Magic have been going about the “tanking” strategy several times in the past decade. They keep telling us it will change everything. It hasn’t.

Out of my element? At the very least, I’m a taxpayer. The DeVos family (who are paying your above named saviors) took money from the taxpayers so I’m completely entitled to express my thoughts. If they’d like to pay back everything they’ve received from the city and county (I believe the state offered breaks to teams as well at one point), then I’ll have no say.

Given they received these dollars with the explanation that it would help downtown, they’re failing. The fact they have fallen to the bottom 20% in attendance this year affects downtown. Given my interest and involvement with the success of downtown, I suggest I have a dog in this hunt.

[AmIReal]

5 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The Magic have been going about the “tanking” strategy several times in the past decade. They keep telling us it will change everything. It hasn’t.

Out of my element? At the very least, I’m a taxpayer. The DeVos family (who are paying your above named saviors) took money from the taxpayers so I’m completely entitled to express my thoughts. If they’d like to pay back everything they’ve received from the city and county (I believe the state offered breaks to teams as well at one point), then I’ll have no say.

Given they received these dollars with the explanation that it would help downtown, they’re failing. The fact they have fallen to the bottom 20% in attendance this year affects downtown. Given my interest and involvement with the success of downtown, I suggest I have a dog in this hunt.

Darn, I thought we were having a sports conversation and didn't realize it was actually all about your political perspective. I was going to remind you that you recently said you don't follow pro sports and as @elefants indicated you're clueless (my word, not theirs). So, I thought I'd relate it to college ball and remind that even patron saint of basketball at UCF (Kirk Speraw) had half dozen losing seasons in his 13 years at the helm- which are considered the golden era of Knights bball.

But since you are actually only viewing this from your rather narrow political perspective, tinged with what seems to be a personal hatred that has little to do with the Magic's record, it seems useless to attempt to explain to you how teams are built in the new era of sports. We are here to help you if you ever decide you want to learn something about the pros.

[spenser1058]

7-29. Head on over to the Hometown National Champions thread to see winning instead of tanking. Charge On!

[AmIReal]

31 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

7-29. Head on over to the Hometown National Champions thread to see winning instead of tanking. Charge On!

Just to be clear, you openly admit you know nothing about pro basketball or pro sports in general, but you rejoice in the local team not winning because...(feel free to fill in the blank)??? While you pretend to root for Orlando-as a whole- to succeed, why do you constantly root against its more outward facing entities such as the Mayor, Disney, the Magic, developers, etc. And why do you constantly feel compelled to pit one side against the other- whether it be the UCF, Magic, SEC, Republicans, etc? Can't I be a UCF and SEC fanboy? Why do you feel the appropriate way to build up your side is to diminish the other side, or actually all other sides?  Particularly when you have zero interest and especially when you have zero clue into the subject or even- like the above example- when the subjects are unrelated except in your train of thought. 

Sure, by all appearance it's because you have some (or numerous) petty political axe to grind, but what rationale do you use in your brain to make your positions make more sense. What makes that little spenser brain tick...???

[spenser1058]

Those who can, win. Those who can’t, tank.

[AmIReal]

10 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Those who can, win. Those who can’t, tank.

Exactly. Now you're catching on. In college you attract more talent by consistently winning (see Alabama). In the pros you attract them by being LA or Miami and now Brooklynn (cities the pros want to live in) or by drafting them.

In 2018-20 the Magic squeaked into the playoffs with a very expensive and mediocre team and lost in the 1st round. Looking around and noting the East was regaining the balance of power in the league and the upcoming 2 drafts appeared to be loaded, the Magic did the only sensible thing. They sold off the best players for high value and settled in for 2-5 years of losses in hopes to build a better team. When you're starting 18-19 years olds it takes a while to develop.

Having several losing seasons to set up winning seasons is the same thing Miami, LA, Brooklynn, Clippers, Pheonix, Golden State and Philly have done. People that follow the sport and are actually fans get it.

[spenser1058]

In the interview yesterday with Marc Daniels, I think Scott Maxwell said it best: the Magic have been “blowing chunks” for about the past decade.

[Uncommon]

10 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Those who can, win. Those who can’t, tank.

This is honestly the most absurd, overly-simplified, nonsensical take I’ve ever seen about sports from someone who very clearly knows absolutely nothing about what he’s talking about. Even if the Magic won a championship tomorrow, you’d still find some way to discredit the team merely because you don’t like the owners. Similarly, even if Buddy Dyer single handedly managed to lure enormous companies to town with exceedingly high paying jobs, you’d manage to find some way to lambast him and continue to make this about your silly, tired agenda.

[Uncommon]

Legitimately, for the first time in almost 10 full years, the Magic have discernible, franchise-changing talent on the roster, including at least two (or perhaps more) All-Star level caliber players and people are whining about losing? Rookies lose. Very young players lose. That’s literally the way of the basketball world. Only a total simpleton believes otherwise. Did people really expect the Magic to be a contender while having its 3 best players under 22 years old and with having the 2nd most games lost to injury in the entire league? How shortsighted and clueless is that? The Magic are finally on the verge of assembling a winning roster that has a chance to actually compete  in the next several years and @spenser1058is crying about things it’s abundantly evident he has no clue about. 

When people with clear agendas run their mouths on topics they have zero business commenting on, it is the height of taxing, annoying, eyerollworthy, irksome, exasperating, and grating speech. Even more troublesome, it severely undermines their credibility and persuasiveness. Whenever such people post about the Magic, all I can see is bias, political agenda, and irrelevancy.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Uncommon

[spenser1058]

7 - 30

[AmIReal]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

7 - 30

[spenser1058]

7 - 31

[orange87]

I don't know a lot about basketball, but it seems like they have some very promising young players on their team.

[AmIReal]

8 hours ago, orange87 said:

I don't know a lot about basketball, but it seems like they have some very promising young players on their team.

Magic rookie Franz Wagner named EC rookie of the month.

19.5/5.1/3.1

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by AmIReal

[jrs2]

On 12/29/2021 at 7:38 PM, AmIReal said:

Darn, I thought we were having a sports conversation and didn't realize it was actually all about your political perspective. I was going to remind you that you recently said you don't follow pro sports and as @elefants indicated you're clueless (my word, not theirs). So, I thought I'd relate it to college ball and remind that even patron saint of basketball at UCF (Kirk Speraw) had half dozen losing seasons in his 13 years at the helm- which are considered the golden era of Knights bball.

But since you are actually only viewing this from your rather narrow political perspective, tinged with what seems to be a personal hatred that has little to do with the Magic's record, it seems useless to attempt to explain to you how teams are built in the new era of sports. We are here to help you if you ever decide you want to learn something about the pros.

Nah.  I agree with Spenser on this one.  We don't vote the same way and the DeVos family apparently has the same religious beliefs that I have.  Spenser may have a bone to pick with them for some perceived or actual slights they have made against certain groups in the community- I don't know b/c I don't pay attention to that stuff... BUT...it is his right to have a stance.

The DeVos family is like Claude Bowers and Superchannel 55 ala The Majesty Bldg in Altamonte.  They milk the public for whatever they can get without a plan for success.  To them, success if selling tickets and doing the bare minimum to get them sold, and because the Magic, aka, the Tragic, are the local team, people become "die hard" fans, which means they spend their $$$ in hopes that the hometown team starts winning.  They give the fans flashes of brilliance to keep them coming back because now fans say that if they did it once before or came close, then they have the ability to do it again.

College BB is different.  Norm Sloan was a hero at UF because he eventually took them to their first NCAA Tournament back when Ronnie Seikaly was playing for Da 'Cuse.  Before that, they went to the NIT Final Four and that was their claim to fame while FSU played in the title game vs UCLA way back in like 1972ish.

NBA is different.  You go get a Shaun Kemp or Lebron or a college grad in MJ or Shaq and you build a franchise around them. Add in a couple of free agents and you've got a playoff team.

We all know the history of The Magic.  It always repeats itself.  It's like UGA football vs Alabama; until Kirby Smart proves he's not Mark Richt, he is Mark Richt.

Jerry Jones may be an a-hole, but he took over the Cowboys and ousted Texas' favorite son in favor of a new era for the Cowboys.  The DeVos fam may be nice guys, you know, that don't want to taint their rep from the likes of Detroit bad boy Rodman, tatted up with green hair and piercings put there by Madonna's piercing tech, but in the NBA there are things that have to be done a certain way to win and they just ain't doing them.

Ask Lebron about that; he skipped franchises a couple of times b/c he wanted rings.  

I personally do not believe in what The Magic is selling. 

It is a top down thing.  That is why UF fired Dan Mullen and hired Billy Napier, because he is restructuring the entire football operation at UF, which eventually affects the locker room, individual players, and individual performance, thus wins and losses.

 

[jrs2]

On 12/30/2021 at 10:33 PM, spenser1058 said:

Those who can, win. Those who can’t, tank.

this statement entails so much, but AmIReal and Uncommon don't get it.

there is so much involved in the practicallity of this statement that deals with the fabric of running an NBA franchise and winning.

winning vs being successful.  Wow.  Successful to DeVos may just mean what I have posted time and again.  And regarding winning, the hype machine is all you need to snow over fans.  How do you get hype?  New talented young players.  Ahh..Now that you have that, you have hope; hype turns to hope.  And at the end of the day, the team is perpetually tomorrow's team.

yep.

[spenser1058]

Scott Maxwell pretty much summed it up in his column this week:

”With a dreadful 7-31 record, the Orlando Magic say they’re rebuilding … again. How many winning seasons have the Magic produced in the past decade? A. 5 B. 3 C. 1 D. 0 Answer: C. And that one winning season was barely so — a 42-40 record the team eked out in 2018-19. Besides that, the team hasn’t won since 2012 when the front office ousted winning coach Stan Van Gundy after Dwight Howard complained about Van Gundy … and then left the team anyway.”

From The Sentinel

Of course, they can sit on their incompetence because no matter how bad the Magic may be, since the NBA artificially limits the supply of franchises (as do most pro sports), when they choose to sell, they are likely to take home to Michigan a huge profit.

That’s great for them, but not so great for the city. The Am with the Magic was supposed to anchor downtown and help it prosper. Only problem is, the anchor we got from the DeVos’ is about as successful as a Sears anchor at the mall in the last decade.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by spenser1058

[elefants]

7 hours ago, jrs2 said:

NBA is different.  You go get a Shaun Kemp or Lebron or a college grad in MJ or Shaq and you build a franchise around them. Add in a couple of free agents and you've got a playoff team.

Damn that's easy.  How does a team get a top 3 drafted player like that?

7 hours ago, jrs2 said:

[I]n the NBA there are things that have to be done a certain way to win and they just ain't doing them.

Which things would those be?   What currently needs to be done differently?

7 hours ago, jrs2 said:

It is a top down thing.  That is why UF fired Dan Mullen and hired Billy Napier, because he is restructuring the entire football operation at UF, which eventually affects the locker room, individual players, and individual performance, thus wins and losses.

Gotcha.  So we should restructure by getting rid of the old administration and and move on from the mistakes that were made in the past.  Kind of like what happened when the Orlando Magic got rid of Rob Hennigan and his mediocre players and set up a foundation for long term success rather than wins (and a first round playoff exit) right now.

7 hours ago, jrs2 said:

winning vs being successful

Ah you do get it.

Edited January 5, 2022 by elefants

[AmIReal]

I appreciate the effort of your original response @jrs2, I just don't understand much of it or the relevancy to the Magic. You agreed with me that college ball is not the same as pro sports, but most of your examples seem to be related to college sports and something to do with Rodman and Madonna (that also went over my head).  But what I think is your bottom line is team owners should do what they can to create winners. In that regard, over the past 15 years the Magic have had a top 10 payroll about half the time. I think that is a large part of what a committed owner should do and is definitely not the "bare minimum". You also indicate hiring a new head coach is a good way to restructure from the top down. If you believe that you should love the Magic since they have done it 10 times in the past 15 years.

Regarding coaches- I wish we could move past the lionization of Van Gundy. He won when he had great players (Shaq in Miami and Howard in Orlando), but he has other wise usually lost (Detroit/ NO). He has been ran out of each of his jobs and now can't get one in the league. Fans may love his erstwhile outspokenness, but he puts off players- and lets face it, they are the product. Good guy, good coach, lousy manager of people. I'm glad we had him and I'm glad he's gone.

And in case you and  @spenser1058 didn't know, the arena is owned by the City of Orlando. The Magic paid $50M of the up-front building costs, all of the overrun costs ($7M), $1M per year for 30 year lease and $40M for naming rights for 10 years. Btw, that contract is expired and there will likely be a new name atop the arena next year (I heard rumors of an airline, but don't believe it).

The City provided land and infrastructure and collect the aforementioned $70M, plus all proceeds from all events (concerts, wrestling, Solar Bears, NCAA games, etc) held in the arena EXCEPT Magic games, which go to the Magic. The County paid most of the construction using TDT funds. If you dislike that, take it up with your State legislature.

The Magic draw over 15k to every home game (41 games). What the downtown businesses do with those potential customers is up to them, but I don't see it as the Magic's job to hand cart each of them to awaiting businesses.  The same goes for all the other events held at the venue.

The arena was not sold as the only anchor to downtown. It was part of a 3 way deal with the arena, Dr Phillips and Camping World. I think in 2 years, in a non-covid world, they will all be doing better. Just like I think in 2 years the Magic will also.

In the end @jrs2 , people like me and @Uncommon may not "get it". That is entirely possible. It may also be possible the 2 people in this conversation who admit they don't follow pro sports are less informed than they think they are.