Hartford vs Providence?

[Garris]

Well, that probably says something about Harford right there, doesn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It does. The area I grew up in (just West of Danbury, CT on the NY state side of the border) is somewhat in both the NYC and Hartford orbit, and the opinions of people there about Hartford haven't changed. In fact, I'd say they've dramatically worsened.

Hartford probably has far less impact on that geographic area (people going there for shopping, hospitals, sports, business, restaurants, family, etc) now than 10 years ago, and much much less than 20 years ago. Growing up, people from all over went to Hartford to shop at G.Fox downtown, go Whalers games, the airport, the hospitals, dinners, etc. Since then, a lot has happened (retail/restaurant explosion in Danbury, most of those attractions in Hartford are gone, etc.). I think the only reason people there go to Hartford now is the occasional UConn basketball game (G-d help Hartford if UConn sports tank...).

I think the cities in line behind Providence are Manchester, Worcester, New Haven, and Hartford, in that order (Worcester and New Haven probably being tied).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Granted, I haven't been to Worcester in the last year, but I'd say that New Haven, CT has a lot more positive buzz right now. Downtown New Haven can actually, I can't believe I'm saying this, be said to be doing well. After a century of trying, Yale's tinkering in New Haven is finally paying off and the University's program of getting employees to move into city limits really has rejuvinated neighborhoods. And it's really benefitting from Stamford/NYC commuters being on 95 and the MetroNorth lines the same way Providence is benefiting from the Boston effect.

I haven't been to Manchester yet, so I can't comment. Maybe I'll go in July or August and do a New Hampshire city weekend with Manchester and Portsmouth... I can't say the photos I've seen of Manchester's downtown have excited me very much, but maybe that says something about the photos, and not the city...

- Garris

[Cotuit]

Granted, I haven't been to Worcester in the last year, but I'd say that New Haven, CT has a lot more positive buzz right now.  Downtown New Haven can actually, I can't believe I'm saying this, be said to be doing well.  After a century of trying, Yale's tinkering in New Haven is finally paying off and the University's program of getting employees to move into city limits really has rejuvinated neighborhoods.  And it's really benefitting from Stamford/NYC commuters being on 95 and the MetroNorth lines the same way Providence is benefiting from the Boston effect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I gave Worcester the slight edge because of Boston, but New Haven certainly has been turning around quite a bit in recent years and may well be better off. I've never spent any quality time in either city.

I haven't been to Manchester yet, so I can't comment.  Maybe I'll go in July or August and do a New Hampshire city weekend with Manchester and Portsmouth...  I can't say the photos I've seen of Manchester's downtown have excited me very much, but maybe that says something about the photos, and not the city...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think Manchester's doing that well in a way that us urbanists would like to see it doing well. It suffers from a rather suburban layout, and is such a small city in it's urban area, that the suburbs sort of overwhelm it. I give Manchester the lead solely based on the New Hampshire economy. New Haven could easily pass it by if New Hampshire's economy tanks.

[KRC]

I think the lack of a "city" feel in Worcester is the issue there. I lived right downtown. Don't get me wrong, I liked living there very much. However, it has more of a suburban feel to it. The urban area isn't like Providence or Boston. Even the layout and construction patterns of Worcester are urban, but almost push the envelope to suburban type development. The mall, Worcester Center Blvd., Centrum (Remember that name?), Worcester Center were all very suburban solutions to urban problems.

Hartford appears to be making some mistakes with the new Convention Center. Personally, I love the building itself. I know it's a huge monstrosity, but I really like it and the hotel isn't bad. Inside is fantastic. The atrium makes your knees weak. However, it couldn't be any worse placed (I know, where else could it have gone?). The biggest mistakes of all was not having Front Street ready AND Columbus Blvd's new design. It borders on highway. And let's not forget they reduced it's width only after much protest. The CT DOT must be a tremendous group of idiots. That makes another point about that poor city. I don't see the same level of state government and civic participation in not just physical, but civic rejouvenation of the city. Cotuit, you are right. You feel that in Providence. Our state government and infrastructure (as frazzled as they may be) work towards the health of the urban core. You don't feel that in Connecticut. It really makes me sad because you can see that Hartford was at one time a very vibrant urban location and could be again, but...

[Baines]

I think the lack of a "city" feel in Worcester is the issue there.  I lived right downtown.  Don't get me wrong, I liked living there very much.  However, it has more of a suburban feel to it.  The urban area isn't like Providence or Boston.  Even the layout and construction patterns of Worcester are urban, but almost push the envelope to suburban type development.  The mall, Worcester Center Blvd., Centrum (Remember that name?), Worcester Center were all very suburban solutions to urban problems. 

Hartford appears to be making some mistakes with the new Convention Center.  Personally, I love the building itself.  I know it's a huge monstrosity, but I really like it and the hotel isn't bad.  Inside is fantastic.  The atrium makes your knees weak.  However, it couldn't be any worse placed (I know, where else could it have gone?).  The biggest mistakes of all was not having Front Street ready AND Columbus Blvd's new design.  It borders on highway.  And let's not forget they reduced it's width only after much protest.  The CT DOT must be a tremendous group of idiots.  That makes another point about that poor city.  I don't see the same level of state government and civic participation in not just physical, but civic rejouvenation of the city.  Cotuit, you are right.  You feel that in Providence.  Our state government and infrastructure (as frazzled as they may be) work towards the health of the urban core.  You don't feel that in Connecticut.  It really makes me sad because you can see that Hartford was at one time a very vibrant urban location and could be again, but...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good points... I lived between New Haven and Hartford for 4 yrs. Once again, Hartford is not in the same class of city as Providence - it does not have the major city feel, the core quality of life aspects (art, culture, education, health care, culinary arts, etc), the expansive dense urban metro, etc. It seems like it is always reaching way beyond its means to establish itself.

Which brings me full circle - while Mancester may be a nice medium city it is no major city and the others mentioned are weak. There are two major cities in New England - Providence and Boston. Remember, Providence is the nation's 5th most densly populated metro and has a very good reputation (despite what the limited view Rhode Islanders think).

[Recchia]

Remember, Providence is the nation's 5th most densly populated metro and has a very good reputation (despite what the limited view Rhode Islanders think).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's the fifth most densely populated metro? Where'd you find this stat, I thought it only had a density of 1,000 something.

[KRC]

It's the fifth most densely populated metro?  Where'd you find this stat, I thought it only had a density of 1,000 something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That figure is for the entire state. Only Rhode Island and my home state of New Jersey can claim densities over 1000! Baines is correct, Providence is the 5th or 6th most densly populated area in the country.

[Garris]

You don't feel that in Connecticut.  It really makes me sad because you can see that Hartford was at one time a very vibrant urban location and could be again, but...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. I lived in New Haven for four years, and you're right. Connecticut, as a state, really wishes they didn't have any of those messy cities to deal with. If you look at their major metros, with the exception of New Haven, which Connecticut city's downtown is doing well or seems to have any future promise at all? Stamford? Hartford? Waterbury? Middletown? Bridgeport? New London?

I remember reading several years ago that Connecticut seemed to have a tax structure and public policy philosophy that almost seemed explicitly designed to keep its cities down. I can believe it...

- Garris

[Frankie811]

http://www.courant.com/news/specials/hc-po...y-news-specials

[KRC]

Agreed.  I lived in New Haven for four years, and you're right.  Connecticut, as a state, really wishes they didn't have any of those messy cities to deal with.  If you look at their major metros, with the exception of New Haven, which Connecticut city's downtown is doing well or seems to have any future promise at all?  Stamford?  Hartford?  Waterbury?  Middletown?  Bridgeport?  New London? 

I remember reading several years ago that Connecticut seemed to have a tax structure and public policy philosophy that almost seemed explicitly designed to keep its cities down.  I can believe it...

- Garris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to tell you that I'm not very familiar with CT below New Haven. I've only been to New Haven twice (once was for the medical center so that doesn't count) and at that time it was dead downtown and none of the new stuff going on had even started yet. I have a friend who built a house in Bedford, NY. Before it was finished, she lived in Stamford. I like it. It has more of a bedroom quality to it though. Otherwise, it is a clean and somewhat active area.

[Recchia]

That figure is for the entire state.  Only Rhode Island and my home state of New Jersey can claim densities over 1000!  Baines is correct, Providence is the 5th or 6th most densly populated area in the country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay that I knew was right, but what's up with this then: http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000dense.htm It says the urbanized area of Providence is only 2,332.2 and puts it wayy down the list. Someone please prove me wrong.

[Frankie811]

I've driven through New Haven numerous times on Rt 95 on my way to NYC, but only visited once several years ago. I was fustrated by the seemingly endless one way streets as I tried to follow a map to get around. For a minute I thought I was in New Bedford. And they have an Indian/Kurry restaurant ON EVERY CORNER AND STREET!!!!! NO KIDDING!!!! I stayed at the Holiday Inn which was a total dump in a dumpy neighborhood. I didn't come away to impressed with the city, but I'll give them another chance soon. I believe Yale saves this city. Interestingly enough, a developer was going to build a mall almost the same size as Providence Place away from downtown along the whalf district which would have included a Nordstrom. The downtown merchants and business owners fought this long and hard on this one, but what really put the nail in the coffin was the fact that Nordstrom had pulled out at the last moment which left the mayor/city/developer nothing to do but throw in the towel. I still don't understand it all. Neither the city nor the developer seemed able to fight on once Nordstrom pulled out. Oh well.

[KRC]

Okay that I knew was right, but what's up with this then: http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000dense.htm  It says the urbanized area of Providence is only 2,332.2 and puts it wayy down the list.  Someone please prove me wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That looks about right. Remember, metropolitan Providence includes all of Rhode Island. It includes Scituate, Foster, Gloucester, Exeter and in Mass., Rehoboth, Dighton, etc. There's a whole lot of land, but not many people out there. The actual city core itself it the most dense. If you look, it says Boston is even less densly populated than are we. Now we now that's just not true. It's all in how you play the numbers.

[CtownMikey]

http://www.courant.com/news/specials/hc-po...y-news-specials

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've always felt a little shakey about the U.S. census, how accurate can that info really be?

[Baines]

I've always felt a little shakey about the U.S. census, how accurate can that info really be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have the data at work...Providence Metro is listed as #5. I'll check for the source, the definition, and the actual data.

But remember, the measurements can be for the SMA which is RI and a large chunk of SE Mass), the city itself (which is at approx 9,800/sq mile), or the area defined as the city and it's immediate suburbs (Pawtucket, NP, EP, and Cranston)- now that is a crowded metro.

[Recchia]

I have the data at work...Providence Metro is listed as #5. I'll check for the source, the definition, and the actual data.

But remember, the measurements can be for the SMA which is RI and a large chunk of SE Mass), the city itself (which is at approx 9,800/sq mile), or the area defined as the city and it's immediate suburbs (Pawtucket, NP, EP, and Cranston)- now that is a crowded metro.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool I'd love to see those stats. The urban core of Providence is very very dense, if they combined Providence, Central Falls (19,000 people in 1.2 sq. miles!), Pawtucket, North Providence and eastern Cranston, it'd probably be close to number one.

[Frankie811]

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hr/hc-tr...0,4246286.story

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/24/nyregion/24hartford.html

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summar...73465%2C00.html

Are you sure you people want Rt 84 to be built?

[cms821]

You can find my I-84 poll and thread Here

[Frankie811]

Worse, in fact, this year than in Providence, Bridgeport and Worcester, all cities with larger populations. And worse than in New Haven; Waterbury; Richmond, Va.; Paterson, N.J.; and Fall River, Mass. (Hartford Courant)

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-guncr...dlines-breaking

Through June 20, 90 people had been shot in Hartford in 2005, which is a rate of 74 shot for every 100,000 residents.

By comparison, Providence's rate - 35 people shot per 100,000 residents - is less than half of Hartford's. The rate in Bridgeport and Worcester, both of which have larger populations than Hartford, is a fraction of Hartford's rate.

[CtownMikey]

Cool I'd love to see those stats.  The urban core of Providence is very very dense, if they combined Providence, Central Falls (19,000 people in 1.2 sq. miles!), Pawtucket, North Providence and eastern Cranston, it'd probably be close to number one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you know how some cities annex nearby areas??

Does/has providence ever do/done that??

and doesn't annexation really cloud the truth on a cities population growth??

Lets say Prov. grew by 4000 residents from 00-04 and orlando grew by 20,000 from 00-04, and Providence isn't expanding it's city border.. but lets say that orlando is, how can anyone really know the actual pop. % growth due to actual moving into that city, against what annexation may add to that number?

[Recchia]

you know how some cities annex nearby areas??

Does/has providence ever do/done that??

[Frankie811]

I had an East Providence cop tell me that years ago E.P. was actually part of Rehoboth, MA. I guess that means that Seekonk was as well. This damn board was down again this morning. That makes 3 times that I know of in the last 10 days or so. It seems to be getting slower also.

[gregw]

I had an East Providence cop tell me that years ago E.P. has actually part of Rehoboth, MA. I guess that means that Seekonk was as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's true. The Mass line went right up to the Seekonk River. Also Fall River was part of RI. I think the two states made a trade in the 1800s. Bristol was once in Mass, etc.

Back then annexations were pretty common. A lot of Providence was once in North Providence. But now in the northeast they don't seem to happen anymore.

[CtownMikey]

hmmm.. very interesting

[brandon401]

it has deff got alot slower, i would love to see more activity, keep me reading...

[Cotuit]

(although wasn't Cranston originally part of Providence?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know about Cranston, but North Providence used to be part of Providence.