Hartford vs Providence?

[Frankie811]

Damn!!!!! I just visited the Hartford forum When I started this thread I didn't think y'all was goin' go over there to compare the two cities like that. I mean, after all, we all know that Providence is the better city

[TheAnk]

I don't know about Cranston, but North Providence used to be part of Providence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe Cranston annexed Silver Lake hood to Providence, took it back, then Prov recaptured it.. Some old timers still call it The Annex.

[Frankie811]

I believe Cranston annexed Silver Lake hood to Providence, took it back, then Prov recaptured it..  Some old timers still call it The Annex.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, thanks! I was wondering why they called it the annex section of Providence.

[EPBOY]

...  I mean, after all, we all know that Providence is the better city 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why I never bothered to go over there... but now you have my curiosity peaked!

[urbie]

Damn!!!!! I just visited the Hartford forum    When I started this thread I didn't think y'all was goin' go over there to compare the two cities like that.    I mean, after all, we all know that Providence is the better city 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe so -- but as we all know, Wormtown Rocks!

Urb (Clark '85)

[Frankie811]

Maybe so -- but as we all know, Wormtown Rocks!

[runawayjim]

i know i'm bringing up some old discussion... but i'm new to the board...

i've lived in providence for the past year and a half, having moved here from just outside new haven. i've been through manchester. new haven is more up and coming than manchester. new haven is WAY ahead of worcester. i'd compare new haven with providence. the only thing it lacks is the amount of theatre that comes through providence, but new haven does have the yale rep, and the shubert and palace, which both show some of those travelling broadway-type shows that the PPAC has often. new haven possibly even has more of a music scene than providence with toad's place. lupo's used to be cool until it merged with the strand/diesel/whatever it is now. providence needs an independent music venue of the size of what lupo's used to be in order for the music scene to be better (new haven also doesn't have to compete with boston).

what new haven lacks is a civic center. it's stuck between hartford and bridgeport, where there's the arena at harbor yard. one of the worst things new haven did was get rid of the colliseum. so bands are going to bridgeport (half an hour away), hartford (actually this happens less now than it used to - 45 min away), and the arena at mohegan sun (an hour away).

the downtown new haven area is great though. the nightlife is thriving. it has a very similar nightlife to providence and the city itself has the same feel that providence has. what new haven has that providence lacks is a bit centralized park (the new haven green). providence doesn't have this connected to the downtown area. sure, providence has roger williams park and the big park in the armory, but there's nothing downtown the size of the green. this connects more of the city.

new haven is also setup very much like providence. there's a bunch of small neighborhoods that have their own little niches. wooster street is the fed hill of providence (with a big historic area nearby... similar to the armory). the morris cove area can be compared to the suburban feel of the northern part of providence (west side of elmhurst and up near north prov). the east side is comparable to westville... it's so similar it's not funny.

and new haven needed the growth just like providence did and it happened around the same time. providence just has more people...

[Frankie811]

While I agree that New Haven has a more lively night life than other CT cities I often wonder where it would be without Yale. When I visited the city a few years ago I couldn't help but noticed that there's no large major brand hotel in the downtown area. What I found was a Marriott on Long Whalf, a run down Holiday Inn on Wholly St (not in a nice neighborhood), a mid-sized independant hotel near Yale and a bunch of motel 6 type motels scattered throughout the city. I found it difficult navigating NH's one way streets and was curious why there's an Indian restaurant on every street and corner in central NH. If the city and developer of the failed Long Whalf Mall had gone through, which would have been the exact size of Providence Place Mall with a Nordstrom, if NH had a convention center, if it had an arena with sports teams, if it had a similar business center, if it had our architecture and history, if it had an airport similar to ours with other transportation and highway access then maybe I'd compare the two cities. And I'll take waterplace park to the green any day.

[Garris]

While I agree that New Haven has a more lively night life than other CT cities I often wonder where it would be without Yale. When I visited the city a few years ago I couldn't help but noticed that there's no large major brand hotel in the downtown area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are pretty much correct about New Haven. I went to Yale undergrad in the mid-90's (long before the current renaissance there... NH felt doomed in the mid-90's). Almost nothing happens in the downtown (and to an extent, in the city as a whole) without Yale's involvement.

Yale was as much to blame for decades as anyone for the previous problems. They badly undermanaged all their downtown properties, and seemed to focus on trying to attract professional usage for their properties rather than retail. What little retail they did try to attract tended to either be of the Ye Olde Ivy League variety or kinda sketchy local vendors. It was a disaster. Yale also did it's own "urban renewal" efforts, replacing older buildings of character with badly scaled (and badly designed) office buildings, labs, and classrooms that killed off entire blocks.

When the current outstanding Yale President, Richard Levin, came in during the mid-90's, the Yale Corporation turned all that around. They had a bold policy of subsidizing housing purchases by faculty within the city limits. They fixed up and renovated all of their downtown and commercial buildings, turning around those neighborhoods almost overnight. They also polled their students and faculty and asked them (since they're the only ones who lived in downtown NH) what kind of retail and restaurants they wanted and then brought them in. As you pointed out, only after years of effort and tons of money did they bring an independent Omni hotel to the downtown. Downtown NH in 2005 is unrecognizable compared to the downtown NH of 1995. It's an amazing difference.

However, much of the change that's happened in Providence via an organic process that's government encouraged and market driven has only really happened in NH with strenuous planning, effort, and tons of money on Yale's part. It's not like Providence is a vassel of Brown. That's the big difference between Providence and NH. Providence is a full fledged city, while NH still remains something of a Yale theme park. The hope of many is that Yale's efforts will lead to a critical mass that will make NH's renaissance self-sustaining and more like's Providence's. I hope so, because NH clearly has the most potential of any of CT's cities...

I've long been fond of saying that Providence is what NH wants to grow up to become .

I'm not so sure what the NH green is like today. When I lived there, it somewhat filled the same purpose as Kennedy Plaza, and as a result, often felt somewhat menacing and dangerous, especially at night. Perhaps it's different today. This experience is why I'm against the recent idea of turning Kennedy Plaza into a kind of NH Greenish park. It'll just be a magnet for loitering...

- Garris

[Garris]

One other big NH/Prov difference, by the way... NH has a way bigger 95 highway problem than Providence. Their quite promising waterfront is entirely disconnected from the city proper by the highway to the point where it's almost considered a separate area (Long Wharf). So NH has the problem that whatever development they put on their desirable waterfront can only suck life from the downtown and never complement or help it. Ever... They're just too separated.

- Garris

[Baines]

i know i'm bringing up some old discussion... but i'm new to the board...

i've lived in providence for the past year and a half, having moved here from just outside new haven.  i've been through manchester.  new haven is more up and coming than manchester.  new haven is WAY ahead of worcester.  i'd compare new haven with providence.  the only thing it lacks is the amount of theatre that comes through providence, but new haven does have the yale rep, and the shubert and palace, which both show some of those travelling broadway-type shows that the PPAC has often.  new haven possibly even has more of a music scene than providence with toad's place.  lupo's used to be cool until it merged with the strand/diesel/whatever it is now.  providence needs an independent music venue of the size of what lupo's used to be in order for the music scene to be better (new haven also doesn't have to compete with boston).

what new haven lacks is a civic center.  it's stuck between hartford and bridgeport, where there's the arena at harbor yard.  one of the worst things new haven did was get rid of the colliseum.  so bands are going to bridgeport (half an hour away), hartford (actually this happens less now than it used to - 45 min away), and the arena at mohegan sun (an hour away).

the downtown new haven area is great though.  the nightlife is thriving.  it has a very similar nightlife to providence and the city itself has the same feel that providence has.  what new haven has that providence lacks is a bit centralized park (the new haven green).  providence doesn't have this connected to the downtown area.  sure, providence has roger williams park and the big park in the armory, but there's nothing downtown the size of the green.  this connects more of the city.

new haven is also setup very much like providence.  there's a bunch of small neighborhoods that have their own little niches.  wooster street is the fed hill of providence (with a big historic area nearby... similar to the armory).  the morris cove area can be compared to the suburban feel of the northern part of providence (west side of elmhurst and up near north prov).  the east side  is comparable to westville... it's so similar it's not funny.

and new haven needed the growth just like providence did and it happened around the same time.  providence just has more people...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi guys-

Comparing New Haven to Providence is crazy.

I lived in New Haven for 4 years and it was not then and is not now anywhere remotely near in the class of Providence. It may be in Manchester's class...at best.

It is much smaller city, poor, truely ugly, dirty, a 1960s industrial base, very limited neighborhoods, limited educational base (Yale), and very low level cutural and historical texture, very low recreational activity, no airport, no transportation center, no corporate center, no financial distrrict, no government center, and a tiny metro area.

In fact, New Haven has been a depressed city for 40 years. It has no hope of being anything but a typical Conn city (Bridgeport, Hartford, Stamford)...a dive.

As to a park...Roger Wiliams is one of the nation's best urban parks- the Green is nothing more than Yale's trash filled "hang out".

[Frankie811]

Thank you Garris & Baines. I couldn't have said it better myself!

[Garris]

Hi guys-

Comparing New Haven to Providence is crazy.

[runawayjim]

While I agree that New Haven has a more lively night life than other CT cities I often wonder where it would be without Yale. When I visited the city a few years ago I couldn't help but noticed that there's no large major brand hotel in the downtown area. What I found was a Marriott on Long Whalf, a run down Holiday Inn on Wholly St (not in a nice neighborhood), a mid-sized independant hotel near Yale and a bunch of motel 6 type motels scattered throughout the city. I found it difficult navigating NH's one way streets and was curious why there's an Indian restaurant on every street and corner in central NH. If the city and developer of the failed Long Whalf Mall had gone through, which would have been the exact size of Providence Place Mall with a Nordstrom, if NH had a convention center, if it had an arena with sports teams, if it had a similar business center, if it had our architecture and history, if it had an airport similar to ours with other transportation and highway access then maybe I'd compare the two cities. And I'll take waterplace park to the green any day. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Providence has 5 colleges that keep it going. Without the colleges, Providence would have gotten nowhere. It's a fact of life in a city like Providence or New Haven that the college students bring money to the city. Unfortunately, these cities do not have the same amount of college students remaining in the city to work after graduation like large cities, such as Boston or New York (not that I'm putting Boston in the same class as New York).

New Haven has the Omni downtown. I have never had to stay in a hotel so I don't know what else exists downtown. The one way streets in New Haven are pretty much setup in a grid, similar to NYC. You miss a turn and you just drive around the next block and you're back to where you need to be. The only part that might be difficult is the Broadway area, but even that is clearly marked with signs.

New Haven should be the high class city of CT, but the state has seemed to forgotten about it and wants to build up Bridgeport for some dumb reason (there is literally nothing in Bridgeport). New Haven does have the same nightlife and music scene as Providence. In fact, I'd give New Haven a one up with the music because of Toad's (they get better bands than Lupo's because Lupo's has to compete with Boston). The colisseum should have never been torn down, but instead renovated and turned into something like the arena in Bridgeport.

What New Haven does have that Providence lacks is a good public transportation system. It has Metro North from NYC coming in until 1am EVERYDAY (imagine that, even the MBTA can't do that) and there's the Shoreline East railroad that goes from New London to (I believe) Bridgeport now (might still only be as far as Milford). And there's the CT Transit bus that can get you all around New Haven and in and out of the city as well. And Dattco does a shoreline run in and out of New Haven.

I'm not in love with the city, but other than the lack of hotels (which I am still finding hard to believe) and the lack of a convention center, mall, and airport, New Haven has everything Providence has.

[runawayjim]

Hi guys-

Comparing New Haven to Providence is crazy.

 

I lived in New Haven for 4 years and it was not then and is not now anywhere remotely near in the class of Providence.  It may be in Manchester's class...at best.

It is much smaller city, poor, truely ugly, dirty, a 1960s industrial base, very limited neighborhoods, limited educational base (Yale), and very low level cutural and historical texture, very low recreational activity, no airport, no transportation center, no corporate center, no financial distrrict, no government center, and a tiny metro area.

In fact, New Haven has been a depressed city for 40 years. It has no hope of being anything but a typical Conn city (Bridgeport, Hartford, Stamford)...a dive.

As to a park...Roger Wiliams is one of the nation's best urban parks- the Green is nothing more than Yale's trash filled "hang out".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i'm not sure i'd go anywhere near as far as your poor view of new haven. it's way above manchester, i don't even know where you came up with that one. as a nearly lifelong resident of the new haven area, i think i would know a bit more about where the city came from and where it is going.

the city was a dump and you never went there in the 80's (sound familiar?) and even early 90's. john destefano came along and improved new haven greatly (not in the corrupt manner cianci took care of providence). he brought the special olympics world games to the city (has providence ever had something of international magnitude held in the city?). the city has an annual international festival of arts and ideas, bringing in some amazing performers (of both the stage and music) and artists from around the country and the globe. the city used to have professional sports with the ravens and the nighthawks/senators/knights. i don't know what happened with the ravens, but the hockey teams were terrible (at least they were when they became the senators) and not enough people went. now they're tearing down the colisseum, so the venue isn't even going to be there (but for all you people in love with convention centers, that's one idea that has been tossed around, as well as luxury condos/apartments/retail space). the chapel square mall will eventually be turned around, but won't be as big as the providence place mall (who needs a mall of that magnitude in a city anyways?). the small local businesses and boutiques are staying in business (can't say that about providence). new haven has perhaps one of the best independent record stores in the world with cutlers (although their prices could be better). when you wouldn't walk around downtown at night 10 years ago, you can do it freely and feel safe about it now.

the new haven green is a centrally located area, roger williams park is not. there is little to no greenspace downtown in providence.

new haven also seems to have more employment and more going on than providence, especially in medicine and sciences (big biotech in new haven). why isn't brown doing anything to help make providence a better city?

new haven has quite a bit more hope than you give it. i'd guess that you lived there over 10 years ago and haven't been back. i do love providence, and i'd still say that new haven is pretty damn comparable in almost every aspect to providence. without the colleges providence would still be a dump.

and to the guy who mentioned the yale home buyer's program. it still exists (i almost landed a job at yale). i now work at providence college, who also has a home buyer's program, but it only covers the elmhurst area, and only a couple blocks where all the students live. the only houses i've seen listed in it recently were multi-family homes. i'd consider it when i think about buying a house, but i honestly don't want to be a landlord and i don't want to have to live with college kids (the ones around here are pretty obnoxious).

[uconn99]

"The nearest airport is an hour away in Hartford, also difficult to access. "

How can you say Bradley is hard to get to? Besides traffic during rush hour, there is easy access right off I-91 to the terminals. New Haven I think tends to use NYC area airports more than BDL, but if the state ever put in mass transit of i-91 this would change. BDL offers a lot more flights than White Plains and is usually a lot cheaper than any NYC airport (EWR, JFK, LGA).

[runawayjim]

"The nearest airport is an hour away in Hartford, also difficult to access. "

How can you say Bradley is hard to get to? Besides traffic during rush hour, there is easy access right off I-91 to the terminals. New Haven I think tends to use NYC area airports more than BDL, but if the state ever put in mass transit of i-91 this would change. BDL offers a lot more flights than White Plains and is usually a lot cheaper than any NYC airport (EWR, JFK, LGA).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i'll add to this... the providence airport can get you to a lot of cities easily... but not all (not even major ones like atlanta) without some sort of layover.

and bradley is extremely easy to get to from new haven. it's only an hour away and it's right off the highway with it's own exit. CT tried to make hartford it's major city. that's the problem... the state is still trying to build up hartford, but with hartford being in the top 10 most dangerous cities in the country and with it's population decreasing (it used to be the #2 most populated city in CT, now it's #3 and new haven is #2 with an increasing population), it's not going to happen.

new haven actually uses bradley more than you'd think...

[AriPVD]

My assessment of New Haven lies somewhere between Garris' and runawayjim. I'm not overly optimistic or pessimistic. On the one hand, New Haven has indisputably improved in the last few years. Downtown has an active retail district, some new housing, a few supermarkets and even biotech (as people are fond of saying, although I've never noticed their presence in downtown New Haven). Yale has stepped up to the plate in a big way, but I would argue that there is both good and bad in that fact. The good comes from the fact that they've improved their city. The negative aspect is that an institution had to do it and NOT the local community. While

some of you mind find that irrelevant or even contradictory, what we have going in Providence is a very vibrant coalition of business people, institutions, artists and government. There isn't one party dominating the so-called renaissance. I think that's really important to note. Additionally, Brown didn't HAVE to step up like Yale did because the East Side/College Hill has historically been a more advantaged neighborhood than say, downtown New Haven. Yale had no choice--it was really a marketing thing--don't improve downtown, lose applicants (my parents were horrified when we visited Yale for school).

Another note--while New Haven has improved, it is not or never will be the capital or dominant city of Connecticut. In reality, New Haven's best bet is a future as a larger, vibrant college town, not a major Northeastern city. Providence has further to fall, but if capitalized correctly, could truly become a northeast player.

P.S. Hope that's coherent...long day at work and late for another meeting.

P.P.S. One more note--Providence has significantly more employment than New Haven...5 college and several fortune 1000 companies, as well as municipal, state and federal government.

[Frankie811]

i'm not sure i'd go anywhere near as far as your poor view of new haven.

[runawayjim]

My assessment of New Haven lies somewhere between Garris' and runawayjim.  I'm not overly optimistic or pessimistic.  On the one hand, New Haven has indisputably improved in the last few years.  Downtown has an active retail district, some new housing, a few supermarkets and even biotech (as people are fond of saying, although I've never noticed their presence in downtown New Haven).  Yale has stepped up to the plate in a big way, but I would argue that there is both good and bad in that fact.  The good comes from the fact that they've improved their city.  The negative aspect is that an institution had to do it and NOT the local community.  While

some of you mind find that irrelevant or even contradictory, what we have going in Providence is a very vibrant coalition of business people, institutions, artists and government.  There isn't one party dominating the so-called renaissance.  I think that's really important to note.  Additionally, Brown didn't HAVE to step up like Yale did because the East Side/College Hill has historically been a more advantaged neighborhood than say, downtown New Haven.  Yale had no choice--it was really a marketing thing--don't improve downtown, lose applicants (my parents were horrified when we visited Yale for school).

Another note--while New Haven has improved, it is not or never will be the capital or dominant city of Connecticut.  In reality, New Haven's best bet is a future as a larger, vibrant college town, not a major Northeastern city.  Providence has further to fall, but if capitalized correctly, could truly become a northeast player.

P.S.  Hope that's coherent...long day at work and late for another meeting.

P.P.S.  One more note--Providence has significantly more employment than New Haven...5 college and several fortune 1000 companies, as well as municipal, state and federal government.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the state of CT wants to see hartford be the dominant city. that's part of the problem. but not being the capital of the state isn't an issue... see chicago or new york or LA or san francisco... sure, new haven doesn't have the population of those cities, but it is the only decent city in CT. hartford lacks what new haven has and bridgeport is a dump...

the east side/college hill is not downtown providence. you can't compare it to downtown new haven. brown just wasn't built downtown. just like you can't compare harlem (where columbia is located) to downtown NYC. don't count new haven out as being a major northeastern city. it lacks a few things, but it's not getting those things (airport is the biggie, but convention center or sports arena is also in there maybe). and tweed is growing... it could feasibly handle a couple different airlines for national flights if it grows enough. the convention center or sports arena all depends on what they do with the colisseum (it's still there and i don't think there's any actual set plans for it's demolition).

what are these several fortune 1000 companies in providence? providence is a hard city to find a job in unless you work for a college. new haven has a lot of biotech (curagen and pfizer are located there). new haven has a big SBC office and it has a bank. yale is the 10th largest employer in the state of CT (which is a pretty big feat considering CT is home to many large companies... UTC, GD, IBM, pfizer, bayer, unilever, GE...) yale probably employs about as many people as at least 2 or 3 of the colleges in providence.

yale had to do what it's doing to the downtown area, but they've also gotten help from the city and the people of the city. new haven is the only happening city in CT. hartford has some nightlife and some decent restaurants and it has the huskies... but the music and arts scene is lacking big time. new haven has all that. new haven has what it takes to be a major city, but the state isn't giving it any help. 95 will be better once the construction is done in 8-10 years. i've also heard thoughts about dropping it below ground by long wharf to connect it to the rest of the city. they've already built some more bridges over the train tracks connecting long wharf to downtown.

most of the revitilization that occurred in providence was from dirty money from cianci. without that, the community would have nothing to work off of. just like without the help from yale, the community would have nothing to work off of. but the city government in new haven is pushing to make it better without the help of the mob.

[AriPVD]

Your statements about Cianci are absolutely incorrect and unfounded. If anything, Cianci held back projects. Most of the money that turned Providence around was federal money or private investment by old Providence families.

Additionally, Providence is home to Textron, Citizens Bank, GTech, a large number of Bank of America and Sovereign Bank employees, a multitude of law firms (including Edwards & Angell, one of the nation's largest), Brown, RISD, Johnson & Wales, and Providence College, and the seat of state government for one of America's most government-happy states (I don't like big government, but that's another issue). I don't think I need to mention that companies like CVS, Hasbro, American Power Conversion, Fidelity's largest branch outside of Boston, and Amica are in surrounding suburbs.

It's easy to throw things around on forums like this and I'm sure that I have been guilty of mistating facts before. Please don't make such unsubstantiated claims. It's offensive, inaccurate and most of all unfair to people who are trying to familiarize themselves with our respective cities.

[brandon401]

providence hands down beats any ct city........ Even if providence was rebuilt with dirty money. Also we do not have a heavy reliance on new york city.

[uconn99]

"i'll add to this... the providence airport can get you to a lot of cities easily... but not all (not even major ones like atlanta) without some sort of layover"

You don't obviously know about Providences airport. After Boston and Hartford, Providence is next in terms of passengers and flights. And yes you can get to most major cities from Providence, its a airline called Delta with 6-7 non stop flights to Atlanta from T.F. Green.

I will agree Providence is a little ahead of Hartford when it comes to apeal and night life, but Hartford is not far behind and in the future will over take Providence. Hartford's night life actually is not half bad, most people just have never cared to experience it. Hartford's art scene is good with the Hartford Stage, Bushnell, and Wadsworth. There is a much bigger arena, bigger convention center, and home to many more business in the greater Hartford area than Providence. I hate my city is better than your city disscussions but most people who bash Hartford have never set foot in the city and experienced what it has to offer.

[CtownMikey]

"i'll add to this... the providence airport can get you to a lot of cities easily... but not all (not even major ones like atlanta) without some sort of layover"

You don't obviously know about Providences airport. After Boston and Hartford, Providence is next in terms of passengers and flights. And yes you can get to most major cities from Providence, its a airline called Delta with 6-7 non stop flights to Atlanta from T.F. Green.

I will agree Providence is a little ahead of Hartford when it comes to apeal and night life, but Hartford is not far behind and in the future will over take Providence. Hartford's night life actually is not half bad, most people just have never cared to experience it. Hartford's art scene is good with the Hartford Stage, Bushnell, and Wadsworth. There is a much bigger arena, bigger convention center, and home to many more business in the greater Hartford area than Providence. I hate my city is better than your city disscussions but most people who bash Hartford have never set foot in the city and experienced what it has to offer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

these conversations will always be about which city is best..

But to say that in the Future.. Hartford will over take Providence.. that is pretty far off.

CURRENTLY.. if you compare the 2 cities now.. and cut out all of providence's "in progress" projects for the next 2 to 3 years, then maybe that statement could be believable. But if you add in Prov's commercial and residential developments which will mostly be complete in the next 2-3 years.. including the MAJOR renovation of our Dunkin Donuts center which is to be combined with our Civic Center and will be in fair competition with any regional venue in my opinion.. then that statement @bout hartford surpassing Prov. isn't very realistic.

It's true that we have seen already seen the beginning affects of our "rebirth", but I believe that what is to come within the next 5 years will blow people away. The increase in density, urban feel, local pride, arts/culture increase, and national recognition will really be something. And what will follow that is more proposals .. more commercial and residential, more of everything.

[CtownMikey]

not to mention the upcoming Showtime series based/filmed in providence is coming this fall I believe!