Nashville as MLB Expansion/Relocation Market

[MLBrumby]

Since my short-form UP name is MLB.... I'll just leave this here...

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2018/07/17/mlb-major-league-baseball-nashville-tn-expansion-rob-manfred/793828002/

Tennessee is the 16th largest state in population, and one of the top-20 densest populated states.  Should pass Massachusetts around 2021 as 15th most populous state. Nashville is the capital, and premier city of the state and in its center. Relatedly, it serves as the urban hub for two other adjacent states. And momentum is just starting. If Clarksville were included in the market for Nashville, it would  exceed 2.3 million NOW!

 

[nashwatcher]

Put it at the Fairgrounds with the MLS stadium! Let the Flea Market venders/State Fair use Nissan Stadium parking lots (better visibility, not used anyway)

[e-dub]

I love baseball, but I dunno that we could keep a team afloat that plays 81 home games each year.  Now, with that said, I would love a team here. I think an AL team would be a better business proposition, but I MUCH prefer the NL game.

 

Small ball forever!

[Titans10]

Meh. 

 

This was talked about years ago before we got a MLS team and Nashville was already over exposed on pro sport teams. Good luck on getting the funding for a MLS stadium, a MLB stadium and a new or improved Titans stadium all with a decade. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Titans10

[markhollin]

As a huge baseball fan, I would love to see Nashville get a MLB franchise....eventually. We are simply not ready for it just yet.  The reasons in chronological order:

1) We have to focus on sorting out the MLS stadium issues and get construction underway.

2) Establish Nashville SC as a viable, profitable major league soccer franchise.

3) Get details ironed-out on long-term upgrades and additional tax-generating attractions for Bridgestone Arena (more seats, more suites, several outside-entrance  restaurants/bars, an upgraded/accessible Tennessee Sports Museum, and an arena hotel facing Broadway at the corner of 6th Ave. The Preds' lease ends in 2028---never too early to proactively work on this.

4) Address the future stadium situation with the Titans which is just a decade away (2029).  Will a new stadium with retractable roof make the most sense, or upgrading Nissan Stadium with some sort of covering? Of course, if starting from scratch, there needs to be a site.  My preference has always been PSC Metals...but there will be a lot of environmental clean-up needed in prep.  

5) With 1-4 we are looking at perhaps as much as $2 billion in costs.  Does the citizenry have the will for all of these projects? What creative ways can taxation of tourists, ticket fees, and skin-in-the game from the owners be employed to help soften Davidson County's burden?

6) Serious surveys must be taken to gauge the enthusiasm of the corporate sector towards points 1-5. 

7) Additionally, if the corporate realm is not ready to pony-up as big time season ticket purchasers, suite sales, and substantial advertising partners for MLB, it will fail.  There needs to be stout support lined-up and ready to spend before an application if even considered.

8) A dynamic ownership group with deep pockets and long-term commitment to Nashville needs to be in place.

9) A MLB stadium site needs to be determined that would include at least 15,000 parking spaces within a few blocks. 

10) If the new Titans retractable roof stadium ends up at PSC, then the most logical locale would be where Nissan Stadium currently sits..  It would just need to hug more closely to the shoreline with right and center fields being exposed to the downtown skyline for iconic view by fans and TV viewers.

11) If Titans remain at an upgraded Nissan, then this poses some challenges for an MLB stadium.  PSC won't work if we would like the field to be positioned for optimum views of our skyline because summertime sunsets would be in the batters' eyes (this is not allowed in any MLB stadium) if it was facing towards the west/northwest. An honestly, if the stadium was built facing in some other direction, it just wouldn't feel right---would be a real wasted opportunity.

12) So, other options of significant land space that include decent traffic access, acreage, and views of the skyline would include:

a) Beaman site. 

b) Gerdau Ameristeel/TA site (north of Nissan Stadium)

c) Alley-Cassetty Brick/Little Harpeth Brewing/Grand Avenue site (north of the b. site)

d) U.S. Smokeless Tobacco/Goodwill Industries site just north of Capitol View (would also require a new I-40/65 exit/entrance ramp at either Herman or Harrison Street).

e) NES site at Charlotte and I-40-65.  This might be a bit snug.

f)  The area west of I-40/65 between Charlotte and Church (provided none of the new development gets underway there in the next few years).

g) The area west of i-40/65 between Church and Broadway that includes Country Delite Dairy, some old Jim Reed Chevy properties, Downtown Hyundai, etc. 

In all of these cases, we're talking pretty expensive land purchases, as well as a fair amount of remediation for b and c. 

13) MLB ownership group will want to negotiate for ballpark entertainment district surrounding the stadium, so all of that, along with sorting out where those 15,000 K cars will park on game days will need to be addressed.

14) By having the stadium at either Nissan, PSC, or 12 b, there are already a lot of parking spaces in play on that area of the east bank, as well as quick access from downtown right across the bridges. 

15) For anyone thinking that the football and baseball stadium could be combined together, neither the NFL or MLB allow such hybrid stadia anymore. Not even worth discussing.

So...there is a LOT to figure out even before the application for a franchise is tendered. 

[nashvylle]

Are 12b/c/d all privately owned? 

[nashwatcher]

We definitely need to invest in mass transit before MLB considering we already have the NFL, NHL, and potentially MLS. 

[Mike G]

Let the Titans walk when they want a new stadium, frees up space and money.

[markhollin]

1 hour ago, nashvylle said:

Are 12b/c/d all privately owned? 

Yes.  As are all of the other sites I mentioned except for the Nissan Stadium site.

[bigeasy]

First off, I think baseball is boring as hell. That being said, I am also watching the Tour de France right now so my opinion shouldn't matter haha. It would be cool to have a professional baseball team here, but I don't see it happening. I think there would have to be a huge swing in professional sports. Football would have to almost go away for a city like Nashville to be able to support an MLB team. 

What is the smallest market with an MLB team? Do they have any other professional sports? I guess KC? I agree with what is stated above on AL probably being the best financially. I wonder if you could ever have a team that is shared between two cities? Do like a Nashville/Charlotte combo. You would still have 40 or so home games at each city. Sure they would have less ticket revenue and still have the stadium expense but it would also expand the fanbase so maybe more revenue from other outlets. Then after X amount of years maybe both cities would be able to support their own team. 

I never really looked into where teams were until now, but I didn't realize the south had only 3 teams. So maybe we would fill a void?

[WebberThomas4]

I wonder what the minimum seating requirements are for an MLB stadium.  It certainly seems possible that the second level could be wrapped around at First Tennessee Park at some point.

Also, maybe a smaller stadium isn’t such a bad thing considering how many empty seats there are in the new stadium in Miami (although a lot of that has to do with the product on the field) — where attendance this year has averaged 9,558 (http://proxy.espn.com/mlb/attendance?order=false) Attendance this season at First Tennessee Park  for Sounds games has averaged 8,861 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Tennessee_Park).

[nashvylle]

Nashville should keep in mind that our potential entry into MLB does not have to come via expansion. Relocation is a possibility too. 

[Tyrone Wiggum]

If baseball is going to expand in the South it's going to be Charlotte, and even that might be a decade away; Cleveland is the only three-sport market that's even close to Nashville's size, and the Tribe struggle to hit 50% capacity despite being an exciting young team that's leading its division.   Further, MLB would rather not be in baseball markets the size of Nashville (or Charlotte, or Tampa,) given that other two-sport MLB cities Nashville's size are at the back of the pack in attendance.

My White Sox are absolute garbage and would probably get beat by the Nashville AAA team yet are still pulling 18k/game; if the Sox  were to be anywhere else you'd have a Miami Marlins situation, which is part of the problem Oakland has.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Tyrone Wiggum

[jmtunafish]

As flattering as it is that the MLB commissioner mentioned Nashville, I just don't see it happening.  As mentioned above, Nashville's finances are already stretched pretty thin with the new First Tennessee Park, the upcoming MLS stadium, and the looming renovations/reconstruction of Nissan Stadium on the horizon. 

And as much as the hair on the back of my neck bristles anytime I hear yet another Charlotte vs. Nashville debate, Charlotte would probably be a much better fit for the MLB if the MLB wants to put another team in the Southeast.  And it has nothing to do with Charlotte's super duper skyline or its cute streetcars.  Professional sports teams in Charlotte enjoy support from both Carolinas which is about double the population of the entire state of Tennessee.  I think even a lot of Braves loyalists in the Greenville SC area would switch allegiances if Charlotte were to have a team.  Tennessee's odd shape means Chattanooga isn't much closer to Nashville than it is to Atlanta,  The Tri Cities are closer to Charlotte than they are to Nashville, and Memphis is so anti-Nashville you can forget about getting much support for a Nashville MLB team from Shelby County.  So, really, a MLB team in Nashville would draw fan support from, what, Middle Tennessee, Bowling Green, and maybe Huntsville and Knoxville?  Whereas a team in Charlotte would have pretty solid support from Charlotte, the Triad, Columbia, Charleston, Asheville, much of Upstate SC, and probably even from the Triangle and Fayetteville.  That's a lot of media markets and a lot of potential ticket sales, a lot more than Nashville would enjoy, I'm afraid.

[markhollin]

Re: converting First Tennessee Park to major league (capacity of 10,000) ...the footprint is simply too small---especially behind home plate.  The smallest stadia currently in MLB are:

Tropicana Field in St. Pete: 31,042 (but that's because they have covered some of the seats.  I think it originally held close to 40k.  The new stadium being proposed for downtown Tampa would be 30,000.

Progressive Field in Cleveland: 35,051 (but they have closed-off much of the right field upper deck--it used to be about 41,000 before that). 

Marlins Park in Miami: 36,742.

Current wisdom would call for something in the 34,000 range to be built for Nashville. 

Re: Attendance challenges could be somewhat eased by the fact that Nashville has become such a tourist destination.  Having 81 major league games in the warmer months offers even further entertainment options for those coming to town (something that, I'm sure, is not lost on MLB research). I could easily see 5,000 or more per night coming from outside our market, and, for series vs. certain teams, weekends, and holidays, it could be as high as 10,000 "outsiders" enjoying fun at the ol' ball yard. 

By current metrics. in order to generate enough for a competitive payroll, an MLB franchise needs to be drawing at least 28,000 per game.

[MidTenn1]

I will submit that Nashville is a destination city for tourists and conventioneers and would gain a lot of support from around the country if a team came here. I see lots and lots of visitors from all over the country at the Titans games, where I have had season tickets from the beginning. They love coming to Nashville, spending some money and supporting their favorite team (usually not the Titans).

An American League team, I think, would attract visitors from this big hole in the middle of the US where there are no AL teams. And that should be embraced by any potential owners. Build a hotel and restaurants on the site to cash in on the visitors willingness to open their wallets.

A few other points on the subject...

• Portland has been very aggressive recently in trying to attract a major League Baseball franchise. They have formed the Portland Diamond Project to that end.
• Oakland is probably looking at one last opportunity to build a 35,000 seat stadium to keep the team. That would be the second smallest in MLB. It would be awesome to have the A's in Nashville with all their storied tradition and history. The apparently badly wanted to put their AAA team in Nashville for some reason.
• Target Field in Minneapolis was opened in 2010 at a cost of $555 million per Wiki. It seats 39.000. They put it on a small lot, though. The upper deck is steep.
• If we got the Tampa Bay Rays, who are on yet another quest to build a stadium, they would draw the Red Sox and Yankees twice a year each. You would expect that to be a party event with lots of national attention and full attendance.

And yes, I have eyes wide open with regard to the possibility of getting a franchise. I also know we had realistic chances to get the White Sox and Expos in the past, though, so there is interest in Nashville's unique market. I'm not totally writing off our chances. Karl Icahn, are you listening??

[Hey_Hey]

I, too, doubt that Nashville will get a team.  However, I don't necessarily think Nashville couldn't support the team.  Rather, I believe other cities could support a team in a stronger manner than Nashville could.  There's simply more competition in Nashville than in a place like Portland, Austin, or Raleigh.  I have no doubt that Nashville could support an average attendance of 18-22,000 per game, but I also suspect those other places could probably support it at a higher level.  

[jmtunafish]

Those of you who've been around a while, do you remember why Nashville didn't get a MLB expansion team back in the 90s?  I was living out west when the MLB granted expansion teams to Denver and Miami, but if I remember correctly Nashville was in the hunt for one of those teams.  When Nashville was passed over, did the MLB say why?  I do remember a lot of baseball purists didn't want Denver to get a team because its high altitude would give them an unfair advantage (thinner air = more home runs, and visiting teams wouldn't have time to acclimate to breathing the thinner air).  And popular opinion was that Florida was a great place for minor league ball and spring training camps but would not be good for MLB (which seems to be true given the lousy attendance figures for the Rays and Marlins).

[nashvylle]

7 minutes ago, jmtunafish said:

Those of you who've been around a while, do you remember why Nashville didn't get a MLB expansion team back in the 90s?  I was living out west when the MLB granted expansion teams to Denver and Miami, but if I remember correctly Nashville was in the hunt for one of those teams.  When Nashville was passed over, did the MLB say why?  I do remember a lot of baseball purists didn't want Denver to get a team because its high altitude would give them an unfair advantage (thinner air = more home runs, and visiting teams wouldn't have time to acclimate to breathing the thinner air).  And popular opinion was that Florida was a great place for minor league ball and spring training camps but would not be good for MLB (which seems to be true given the lousy attendance figures for the Rays and Marlins).

I think Purcell said no at some point when the Expos were looking at leaving, which wasn't in the early 90s you are referring to. 

[MidTenn1]

17 minutes ago, jmtunafish said:

Those of you who've been around a while, do you remember why Nashville didn't get a MLB expansion team back in the 90s?  I was living out west when the MLB granted expansion teams to Denver and Miami, but if I remember correctly Nashville was in the hunt for one of those teams.  When Nashville was passed over, did the MLB say why?  I do remember a lot of baseball purists didn't want Denver to get a team because its high altitude would give them an unfair advantage (thinner air = more home runs, and visiting teams wouldn't have time to acclimate to breathing the thinner air).  And popular opinion was that Florida was a great place for minor league ball and spring training camps but would not be good for MLB (which seems to be true given the lousy attendance figures for the Rays and Marlins).

If you are referring to the Larry Schmittou  (owner of the Sounds at hat time) proposal in the 90's, it was a joke, to put it mildly. He proposed a 30,000+/- seat stadium to cost $30 million on a site at the I 65/I 24 split north of town. As I recall, the expansion committee was apparently shocked that someone thought they could build a MLB stadium at that price. And the video prepared for the presentation was extremely cheesy and hillbilly, from what I saw of it, and embarrassing to the city. From the TENNESSEAN...

And Denver and Miami were superior applicants. Denver has been extraordinarily successful as a franchise, even though they have yet to win a championship (altitude kills their pitchers). I've been to a game there and loved the experience. I saw Prince Fielder hit a triple in that enormous outfield. That was crazy. 

 

More from the 2015 Tennessean article...

Quote

And in the future, Nashville could handle a big-league baseball squad, too, said Predators CEO Jeff Cogen. A decade ago, Cogen worked as president of MLB's Texas Rangers. In Nashville, Cogen and COO Sean Henry, have revitalized the Predators. Cogen said the biggest question is how to pay for a ballpark that would cost around $600 million.

"The next thing you'd have to turn your attention to is could the market sustain it," Cogen said. "Are there enough seat-buying people, are there enough suite-buying people and are there enough corporate-buying people? My answer will surprise you, I think there are.

 

[jmtunafish]

1 minute ago, PHofKS said:

If you are referring to the Larry Schmittou  (owner of the Sounds at hat time) proposal in the 90's, it was a joke, to put it mildly. He proposed a 30,000+/- seat stadium to cost $30 million on a site at the I 65/I 24 split north of town. As I recall, the expansion committee was apparently shocked that someone thought they could build a MLB stadium at that price. And the video prepared for the presentation was extremely cheesy and hillbilly, from what I saw of it, and embarrassing to the city. From the TENNESSEAN...

And Denver and Miami were superior applicants. Denver has been extraordinarily successful as a franchise, even though they have yet to win a championship (altitude kills their pitchers). I've been to a game there and loved the experience. I saw Prince Fielder hit a triple in that enormous outfield. That was crazy. 

Ah, that explains it then.  Yes, it was Larry Schmittou.  I hear he was quite a character.  I do have a soft spot for the Rockies.  While I was on the faculty at U.T., Todd Helton one year paid the dental insurance premiums for all U.T. faculty as a way of thanking the university.  Because of the Todd Helton connection, there's still a lot of Rockies fans in Knoxville.

[tragenvol]

Schmitto's MLB expansion effort stadium design came complete with a guitar scoreboard.

[Jamie Hall]

I agree with a lot of the above-mentioned reasons Nashville couldn't and/or shouldn't try to land an MLB team today, but the league hasn't even said yet when or even if they intend to expand -- that makes me think that the soonest MLB would  be in position to even look for proposals would probably be 5 years out. A lot can happen between now and then that could negatively or positively change Nashville's chances.

For now, I'm going to relish the fact that we have NFL, NHL, solid AAA baseball and (fingers crossed) Major League Soccer. Anything else is gravy.

[smeagolsfree]

William and I have been talking about these markets and there is no city with under 2.5 million in population that has four of the big five, NFL,NHL, NBA, MLB, and MLS . We don't think Nashville will be the first.

[titanhog]

Ok...let me ask this:  If somehow the MLS expansion falls through here (because of the Fairgrounds fiasco)...would that suddenly change our minds on the viability of MLB here?