Nashville as MLB Expansion/Relocation Market

[AlbiMayR]

2 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

The other catch here too is if they want a whole new mixed use community surrounding the Ballpark, with entertainment and such, folks need to be within spitting distance of the other attractions. It will be hard to fill office space there, and it is already hard to keep restaurants on that side of town for various reasons. A lot of it has to do with spending power. When there is no game there will be no customers. Unfortunately there are racial aspects that are involved. I have to say that and the big boy companies including grocery stores, chain restaurants factor these things in. That is why there are food deserts, restaurant deserts so to speak with nothing healthy, just fast food.

I hate to bring that issue up as I try not to be racist, but these big companies are, even if they say they are not their policies say something different.

If you look at the racial breakup and the spending power of city neighborhoods you will not find trendier businesses in the poorer areas of town. Look how long it took East Nashville to get a Publix. The household income was not where they wanted it until recently. That also comes into play with poor white cities. There may have been chain restaurants in some of these places, but they are closing in droves.

Moving on. There are no hotels there and likely will be any or enough to handle the needs. People will not stay in that area when the action is on Broadway. Buchanan Street is OK, but it is not what you would call a 12 S yet.

I am sure the Stars owners have good intentions but are blinded by their ambitions and someone with some common sense needs to give them a dose of reality. If they plan on gentrifying that entire area being a minority owned team, they will end up with a fight on their hands. That area is already suffering a ton of that already and when a bunch of out of towners come in and try to change a neighborhood like this, it may end up backfiring pretty badly.

The problem again is the area has a bad reputation, without a good Ingres/egress system. If it is on campus the TSU police get to handle. What happens when you. Have a  Hockey, Soccer, NFL and Baseball game or some other big event at Bridgestone or the stadium that is not sports related.

It is easier to handle crowds in a concentrated area. Now we are in multiple parts of the city. Hey let’s throw in a Vandy game to boot.

That is just a piss poor location on so many levels. 

TSU is a 10 minute walk from the Nations, and L&L market, it is not an activity desert. Sports fans that want to see a BaseBall game won’t care if the Bonney thinks are 6 miles away. Stadiums bring traffic closures and that would not be convenient  for people living off campus. You’re doing a bang up up job of being racist by saying “I try not to be racist”. All these points are moot since TSU is in a fairly central location to get to other parts of town. 
 

 

[MLBrumby]

It'd be great if Metro could figure out where the BRT/LRT line(s) would go before putting their weight behind a new ballpark. 

My first memory of going to Fulton Co. stadium in the late 1970s was a mix of frustration and enjoyment. I loved the woeful Braves and modeled my short youth "career" after Dale Murphy's multi-faceted talents.  However I was never a good outfielder and liked infield because I didn't have to run far and loved (what I thought was) anticipation of runners' intentions (I wasn't great at that either). Of course, my first dream was to be a pro baseball coach.  Anyway, the frustration came from the difficulty I felt in getting to the ballpark, especially after having been to visit cousins in Chicago around that time and seeing how easy it was to take a train to Wrigley.  I don't recall taking Marta to the ballpark before I was 12 and I'm still a bit unclear when it was completed to Decatur (my brother and I differ in our memories); but I recall it was a hike from Five Points. We didn't do that often when we were young.

My point here....  Atlanta missed the boat on rail to the ballpark (granted the stadium existed before Marta was established)... and again when Turner was built as Olympic Stadium... and now in Cobb but that ship has sailed. Missed opportunities:  ATL.... See mass transit... don't put ballpark near it LOL!  That kiddoes, is why you have enormous parking lots rurrounding Turner Field (nee Fulco Stadium), and to this day that area is a "no man's land".  The saddest thing I remember was going to the parking lot that now sits on the footprint of the old stadium and finding Hank Aaron's 715 marker. It's a 20' sign above an outer ring of parking spaces.

Nashville!!! Put your darn ballpark near downtown... and near the main (possible) transit lines. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by MLBrumby

[Urbanman]

3 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

The other catch here too is if they want a whole new mixed use community surrounding the Ballpark, with entertainment and such, folks need to be within spitting distance of the other attractions. It will be hard to fill office space there, and it is already hard to keep restaurants on that side of town for various reasons. A lot of it has to do with spending power. When there is no game there will be no customers. Unfortunately there are racial aspects that are involved. I have to say that and the big boy companies including grocery stores, chain restaurants factor these things in. That is why there are food deserts, restaurant deserts so to speak with nothing healthy, just fast food.

I hate to bring that issue up as I try not to be racist, but these big companies are, even if they say they are not their policies say something different.

If you look at the racial breakup and the spending power of city neighborhoods you will not find trendier businesses in the poorer areas of town. Look how long it took East Nashville to get a Publix. The household income was not where they wanted it until recently. That also comes into play with poor white cities. There may have been chain restaurants in some of these places, but they are closing in droves.

Moving on. There are no hotels there and likely will be any or enough to handle the needs. People will not stay in that area when the action is on Broadway. Buchanan Street is OK, but it is not what you would call a 12 S yet.

I am sure the Stars owners have good intentions but are blinded by their ambitions and someone with some common sense needs to give them a dose of reality. If they plan on gentrifying that entire area being a minority owned team, they will end up with a fight on their hands. That area is already suffering a ton of that already and when a bunch of out of towners come in and try to change a neighborhood like this, it may end up backfiring pretty badly.

The problem again is the area has a bad reputation, without a good Ingres/egress system. If it is on campus the TSU police get to handle. What happens when you. Have a  Hockey, Soccer, NFL and Baseball game or some other big event at Bridgestone or the stadium that is not sports related.

It is easier to handle crowds in a concentrated area. Now we are in multiple parts of the city. Hey let’s throw in a Vandy game to boot.

That is just a piss poor location on so many levels. 

Wow!!! “I try not to be racist” but sometimes I just can’t help myself and I have to show my true colors. SMH, it ain’t hard to tell 

[smeagolsfree]

12 hours ago, AlbiMayR said:

TSU is a 10 minute walk from the Nations, and L&L market, it is not an activity desert. Sports fans that want to see a BaseBall game won’t care if the Bonney thinks are 6 miles away. Stadiums bring traffic closures and that would not be convenient  for people living off campus. You’re doing a bang up up job of being racist by saying “I try not to be racist”. All these points are moot since TSU is in a fairly central location to get to other parts of town. 

it is not a very pleasant walk. Some areas have zero sidewalks and others are pretty desolate. I drive along 40th from time to time and have felt unsafe a number of times by folks in the streets blocking traffic, or cars blocking traffic, there are no sidewalks between the Nations and 40th either, and the walk along Walter S Davis is pretty dead. That would be where the stadium would go.

Another issue they will have to deal with is the entire area they will be looking at was completely under water during the May 2010 flood.

 

11 hours ago, Urbanman said:

Wow!!! “I try not to be racist” but sometimes I just can’t help myself and I have to show my true colors. SMH, it ain’t hard to tell 

You have to identify issues and not pussyfoot around them. Sometimes you have to say what has to be said that many others are afraid to say because they are afraid of hurting someone else's feelings. It is a cold hard fact there are black and white issues in this country and not to talk about them is stupidly. It is like not talking about the Pit Bull that is about to bite your rear end in the room and pretend it is not there. That is a problem when everyone is too afraid to talk about an issue. I try to do something in a Non hurtful manor. The folks in these communities know what the issues are and have been dealing with them all of their lives. To ignore those issues is a disservice.

Yes, there is a lot of crime in this area because it is a poor minority area of the city. If it were a poor white area of the city, it would be the same way. The point I was making was more about economics as I included small white poor cities. If an area is poor regardless of race you have crime and poverty. In this case it is a predominately black community that has been beaten down for a long time and I was making a point about the large companies and their racist policies they have without having them in writing.

This community will probably not like outside folks regardless of skin color coming in and changing their neighborhood and further gentrifying it. When an area tends to be gentrified as we all know the locals are pushed out and the racial and economic structure of the neighborhood change and the said area loses its identity.

[samsonh]

Smeagols, the area is rapidly gentrifying as we speak. Drive through and every tenth house is either being torn down and built right now. It’s been happening for several years. Yes the area has poverty, it also has culture and growing wealth.

[Argo]

44 minutes ago, samsonh said:

Smeagols, the area is rapidly gentrifying as we speak. Drive through and every tenth house is either being torn down and built right now. It’s been happening for several years. Yes the area has poverty, it also has culture and growing wealth.

So just go ahead and push the blacks out more?

Edited July 21, 2022 by Argo

[samsonh]

1 hour ago, Argo said:

So just go ahead and push the blacks out more?

That is really what you took from my post? Jesus.

[nashvylle]

2 hours ago, Argo said:

So just go ahead and push the blacks out more?

Yes, because @samsonhis the developer behind all of these projects… was simply stating a fact. 

[dmillsphoto]

53 minutes ago, samsonh said:

That is really what you took from my post? Jesus.

I mean, as poorly worded as that post was, I think there's something to be said (and I will recommend this book til my dying breath) about lessons taught in The Color of Law around historically black neighborhoods, the culture, and the destruction of. Not that these islands should remain tacitly as they are, but integration needs to be carefully planned.

[Rick Dalton]

Why should a depressed and violent area remain protected just because it’s black? I think it would be a disservice to not improve those areas. There’s obviously a balance, but some of North Nashville is truly blighted, and economic development should be welcomed. 

[samsonh]

5 minutes ago, dmillsphoto said:

I mean, as poorly worded as that post was, I think there's something to be said (and I will recommend this book til my dying breath) about lessons taught in The Color of Law around historically black neighborhoods, the culture, and the destruction of. Not that these islands should remain tacitly as they are, but integration needs to be carefully planned.

completely agreed. That book should be a must read for those interested in urban development btw

[dmillsphoto]

7 minutes ago, samsonh said:

completely agreed. That book should be a must read for those interested in urban development btw

100% agreed. Actually. If there is someone who hasn't read it and has a genuine interest in understanding the topic better, I will personally ship (a lightly used) copy to them. Just DM me. While I wish I could buy everyone a copy, I'm only gonna do this once.

[shanky]

On 7/20/2022 at 8:12 AM, markhollin said:

Nashville is rated #1 most likely city out of 10 cities most likely to get a Major League Baseball expansion team according to Bookies.com:

https://bookies.com/mlb/picks/next-mlb-expansion-city-odds

Are any of these cities listed here actively pursuing a MLB franchise?  Nashville has a potential ownership group but I'm not aware of any efforts by Metro or the State to try to lure a expansion franchise here.  Any of these cities buying what MLB is selling?

[nashvylle]

3 minutes ago, shanky said:

Are any of these cities listed here actively pursuing a MLB franchise?  Nashville has a potential ownership group but I'm not aware of any efforts by Metro or the State to try to lure a expansion franchise here.  Any of these cities buying what MLB is selling?

Until you get a billionaire within the ownership group, nothing else matters. Look at Nashville with MLS. We were last and then all of a sudden first once John Ingram was onboard. 

[Argo]

18 minutes ago, natethegreat said:

Why should a depressed and violent area remain protected just because it’s black? I think it would be a disservice to not improve those areas. There’s obviously a balance, but some of North Nashville is truly blighted, and economic development should be welcomed. 

Well what will happen to the blacks there?

[Rick Dalton]

1 minute ago, Argo said:

Well what will happen to the blacks there?

Grow and partake in the newfound opportunity. I’m not advocating for them to be pushed out.

[Argo]

1 hour ago, natethegreat said:

Grow and partake in the newfound opportunity. I’m not advocating for them to be pushed out.

That's very Archie Bunker of you.

[titanhog]

2 hours ago, Argo said:

Well what will happen to the blacks there?

Same thing that always happens in a gentrifying neighborhood.  If you rent…once the landlord takes the offer to sell, you’ll have to move somewhere else.  If you own…you’ll be offered money until finally you’re offered enough that you can’t afford NOT to sell…and then you’ll move somewhere else.  Either way, most people who are there now will probably end up moving somewhere else…for better or for worse.

[Bos2Nash]

This conversation has really spiraled in critiquing others wording of things. 

I agree that working to correct the damaging results of redlining needs to be done carefully. If the ownership group was a white billionaire, the fight would be much harder when that came about. The minority led ownership group is working to honor the past while bringing in new spending power to a depressed area. The TSU Farm site is challenging for sure, but none of those challenges are unsolvable. I'm gonna quote myself below from the end of May where the viability of the site was discussed.

An MLB stadium in this neighborhood - as I state below - has the opportunity to give some neighborhood pride in this area for the residents and college campus. The notion that the area around the ballpark needs to be like 12 South or Lower Broad or any other neighborhood we already have in town is a little preposterous. This should be and can be a very unique neighborhood. While some will relocate out of the area, I don't think - if done correctly - it will necessarily push folks out. The land here is also open farm land, the single family housing in the area is actually further away than some housing around Nissan. I would not be shocked if we begin to hear about more items that PillowTalk4 mentions with possible financing coming from some of those bigger corporations that otherwise have not spent money in the area previously.

Also having a stadium over here, should push more Metro officers to be located in this precinct which should help with response times and neighborhood policing. TSU Campus Police may not be responsible for events or crimes in the area depending on how a ground lease is worked through. This is also a great opportunity for an truly effective special tax district like the Gulch in which businesses pay an extra tax for cleanliness, first responder funding, etc. A special tax district would be much more beneficial here than for the Titans stadium IMHO.

On 5/31/2022 at 12:02 PM, Bos2Nash said:

On 5/30/2022 at 11:04 AM, markhollin said:

I have a screen shot from Smeagolsfree's excellent development map that sows the Cumberland Shores area north of TSU's campus where this 140 acre baseball/entertainment complex would sit.

I really don't like this location for 3 primary reasons:

1) Access to it would be quite difficult for 42,000 people at the ballpark, and 25-50,000 for this adjoining entertainment venue they are proposing.  The closest interstate would be I-40, with the nearest interchange at 28th Ave. North/Jefferson St.  (which is simply NOT made for high levels of traffic) being nearly a mile away at about 14 blocks. The next closest would be I-40 at 46th Ave. North, and would require cutting event traffic though a primarily residential portion of The Nations on narrow roads, and being at least 2 miles to the Ballpark Village area.

2) This is a flood plain of major proportions that would need major infrastructure work to assure everything would not go underwater a time or two every decade (on average).

3) It is nowhere near the energy and sizzle of downtown (nearly 3 miles away as the crow flies) with no direct routes, thus making it quite cumbersome in trying to attract tourist attendance.

My guess is MLB Nashville group is focusing on this site because it is the only one that is making sense to a certain degree as far as moldable/relatively cheap acreage. Perhaps they believe the TSU connection will bring a certain level of cache to the whole African American ownership concept and the Nashville Stars tie-in with the negro leagues/North Nashville heritage.  But I fear they are wildly overestimating what any of that will actually mean in establishing a healthy, profitable sports franchise.  They are straining so hard to appeal to 10% of the population...and while this is highly admirable, I think at times they are painting themselves into a corner. 

 I understand why they are looking here and applaud what they are doing. I do disagree that this is an ideal location (see my last thoughts), but really applaud the mindset they are taking and the reasons they are doing it.

There are a couple things to unpack from Mark's comments above.

1) Access would absolutely be abysmal at first, absolutely. 28th/Ed Temple Blvd would most likely have to be expanded from I-40 to Buchanan Street or even Clarksville Pike. While this is expensive (especially the 28th stretch), not totally unreasonable as there appears to be a fair amount of frontage. The other way in to this stadium (from the east) would probably be from the Metrocenter side and handled with interstate signage and such to get folks off the interstate and moving around that collector road. Coming from the West is a bit more difficult because 51st would most likely be the primary exit, because the next one wouldn't be until Jefferson Street. 51st is already a fairly large road, possibly some of the stop signs would get converted to signals (GASP) and the 51st & Centennial intersection could finally be addressed properly. I think the ownership would have to have a very good traffic plan and lots of money for roadway improvements, but I don't think it is insurmountable. GEODIS Park is a great example, even if they are slightly closer to the highway. Gillette Stadium is another great example of lack of highway connection, but still very successful mixed-use development.

2) Flood plain could be a concern as most of the site is sitting in the 100 year flood plain – this equates to a 1% chance of flooding year over year. The River North site is the same way and look at what is being planned there. Nissan Stadium and the new proposed location mysterious has had the flood plain drawn around (kind of odd in how that happened) and PSC Metals is within the 500 year flood plain, so a 0.2% chance to flood year over year. Flood mitigation can easily be planned for and probably would still not jump land cost up to East Bank levels (I'm thinking what the land + cleanup of PSC would cost an ownership group because Metro cannot and should not entertain those costs).

3) Yes it is outside the hustle and bustle of Downtown Nashville, but maybe they don't want to be associated with the ruckus that is downtown Nashville? You look at other major, big boy cities and their ballparks are not all located right downtown. Fenway Park is located within Boston and what everyone knows as the city, but it is located 2.14 miles from the heart of downtown with almost ZERO interstate access. The North Nashville site is located 2.75 miles from Lower Broadway. I would also argue that we could see the city proper expand over the next 30 to 50 years (which should be the MINIMUM target lifespan of a stadium), where that number comes down. Additionally, rather than the Sports Authority owning the stadium, maybe this stadium will technically be owned by TSU and the Stars would be a tenant. This would be a large revenue stream for TSU, would possibly help finance the Cumberland City Project (Mark highlighted in the map) for the university's expansion. The City Project is 84 acres according to TSU's website and the ownership group said they are looking at approximately 140 acres. The area on the development map is approximately 182 acres, which leaves about 42 acres of overlap (and would also eliminate the entire TSU Farm/Goat-Cattle facilities, unsure if that is desired by the university) where there could be shared buildings (ie student housing, academic buildings, etc) that could then feed off one another. In theory, a baseball stadium (owned by TSU) could kick TSU up to a Vandy level presence within the city and if that happens, who gives a crap about 2.75 miles.

They are absolutely looking at the North Nashville site from a money perspective, but I believe what Dave Stewart laid out is also laying out something bigger than just baseball. Maybe they are partnering with TSU in a partnership to bring baseball to TSU (they currently have softball, but no baseball program) and they are seeing a potential to bring a baseball program to a HBCU school in order to help create a more opportunity to increase the demographic within baseball. They talk about different hiring practices, maybe they will look at different scouting practices. The site is also a historically redlined neighborhood, so they could possibly be looking at breathing a new sense of life and commercial gain into the area. I don't think the baseball stadium would be a huge economic driver, but it would give the North Nashville, TSU/Fisk areas something they could be proud of. Something that they want to go spend some time during the weekend around or possibly even a mid-week night out. Something the highway cap (which I was big time in favor of) really did nothing of the sort.

All this to say, I still believe that if enough money is thrown at First Horizon Park (because the Sounds would not survive a Major League team in the same city), it could be converted into a Major League stadium. It would probably require a rebuild surrounding the field, but there is plenty of space to add seats around the stadium. No ownership group will admit to that because every ownership group wants their own shiny, new space (cough Titans cough) but it is very much doable. 

 

[smeagolsfree]

I am not for pushing anyone out. I am for the folks living there and being upset by out of towners coming in and changing it even more. With the ballpark there you can pretty much say "there goes the neighborhood" which is a bad thing. 

On top of that it is just a bad location in general. If it were a lily-white neighborhood with 2-million-dollar homes and had the same type of size of college, but an all-white catholic convent and the road system was the same, I would still say it is a bad location, but then the neighbors would still really be pissed and not want it at that location. I am being over bit facetious to make a point, but you catch my drift. For that matter it could be the world's largest 4-year clown college.  In this case, the area homes may lose value.

It is the same situation either way you look at it. I am sorry you look at it this way Argo. I do apologize If I offended in any way. We all cannot go around with blinders on, and pretend racism does not exist. I wish it did not and with some of these issues with neighborhoods race does play an issue especially when folks are not being treated fairly. I do not think talking about race makes anyone a racist. When we stand up and realize our faults and try to understand one another is what truly helps us to become better people. 

There are times as a White person, I don't know if I have offended a Black person or not. The problem is when I get crawled on the carpet let's say for not really knowing what I did. Worse yet if I offend a Woman that I call Mamm, and she lets me have it or I open the door for her. Guess what she is still going to get called Mamm! I open the door for everyone. Let's be honest, there are racist in every race. I t not just White or Black, it is also Asian and even in Asian there is a lot of race hatred between Japanese and Korean. Many Japanese want to keep their country racially pure

[Auntie Yock]

9 hours ago, Argo said:

So just go ahead and push the blacks out more?

[markhollin]

NBJ with a summary piece about the TSU site for a MLB stadium complex:

Music City baseball’s current goal is to have construction start on the multipurpose stadium in 2024, John Loar, managing director for Music City Baseball, said in an interview. The group’s timeline is focused on the Nashville Stars playing their first potential season in 2027.

Music City Baseball will continue considering sites on the East Bank and in Williamson and Rutherford Counties, however more than 90% of the group's focus has shifted to TSU, Loar said.
A financing plan for a future stadium has not been solidified.

Loar said that the goal is to “overcome the obstacle in real estate, providing an area where a ballpark can be built with limited to no public financing.”

He did not disclose the amount of private financing the group has raised.

Music City Baseball has identified the Texas Rangers’ Global Life Field in Arlington, Texas, and the Atlanta Braves’ The Battery in Atlanta as projects comparable to what they are hoping to bring to Nashville. Both serve as not only as baseball stadiums, but also entertainment and event venues.

The project cost for Global Life Field was around $1.2 billion, with a $500 million contribution from the City of Arlington funded through sales tax, hotel tax and car rental tax.

“We’ve always looked at sites and looked at the ballpark specifically as more of an arena, a facility that would accommodate baseball. You really have to look at a covered condition facility that is geared toward residencies for music, corporate convention uses to help support Nashville’s growth in the tourism industry. Whatever state money is available, I think we would look at that as an alternative,” Loar said.

Baseball games would fill the stadium only 22% of the year, said Connor Loar, manager of entertainment partnerships and digital strategy and marketing for Music City Baseball. To activate the stadium on non-game days, Music City Baseball is looking into a residency model similar to what Las Vegas does, Connor Loar said.

“We’ve talked with some of the biggest names in the music industry, from artists, labels, managers, we’ve gotten a lot of positive feedback that this can work, focusing on filling it from down to 10,000 all the way up to 50,000 people,” Connor Loar said.

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2022/08/02/music-city-baseball-focuses-on-tsu.html

[smeagolsfree]

Trying to stay relevant again.

You can only tax so many services in this city for so many stadiums.

They will again have to overcome the fact that the site I am sure they are looking at is a flood zone. Lots to overcome.

[nashvylle]

TSU is much better location than Rutherford County. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by nashvylle

[lmc123]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

Trying to stay relevant again.

You can only tax so many services in this city for so many stadiums.

They will again have to overcome the fact that the site I am sure they are looking at is a flood zone. Lots to overcome.

I could see them doing a sales tax TIF or TDZ similar to the new Titans stadium deal. The TSU site currently generates $0 in sales tax.