Central FL Roads and Highways

[smileguy]

15 hours ago, codypet said:

Gotcha everyone.

Dashcam Video

Wait. No. I'm sorry. No. This can't be right.

At :50, is that the exit for I-4 mainline and 1-4 express merging for both directions on 408, replicating the similar nightmare of cross-merging that this whole situation was supposed to be replacing? 

Because if it is... 

[uncreativeusername]

1 hour ago, smileguy said:

Wait. No. I'm sorry. No. This can't be right.

At :50, is that the exit for I-4 mainline and 1-4 express merging for both directions on 408, replicating the similar nightmare of cross-merging that this whole situation was supposed to be replacing? 

Because if it is... 

Isn't it significantly different in that the leftmost exit lane has access to 408 eastbound and westbound, negating the need for a lane change? 

The only people required to do anything mildly complicated would be folks trying to take 408 WB from the furthest right I-4 exit lane.  And this is an avoidable issue - although the original exit sign from I-4 should probably indicate that the right lane should be used for 408 eastbound only.  The express lane does look like it merges into the leftmost exit lane, but they aren't required to cross again into the right lane for 408 eastbound. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by uncreativeusername

[codypet]

5 hours ago, smileguy said:

Wait. No. I'm sorry. No. This can't be right.

At :50, is that the exit for I-4 mainline and 1-4 express merging for both directions on 408, replicating the similar nightmare of cross-merging that this whole situation was supposed to be replacing? 

Because if it is... 

Based of the signing I expect the express to merge with the mainline and those two lanes carry around the curve and the Ocoee exit doesn't have a dedicated lane.

By here I expect the express lanes to have merged with the mainline.  I'm assuming that's an APL sign, although throughout the whole project I've had a ton of issues on how they did their signing.

Here the roads not wide enough for 3 lanes so express should be fully merged.

408 West peels out without a dedicated lane and 2 lanes go eastbound.   The SR 408 bridges are being widened so we enter 408 with 5 lanes, thus beginning the high speed free for all that starts when the Anderson Ramp joins SR 408.

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by codypet

[Jerry95]

8 hours ago, codypet said:

By here I expect the express lanes to have merged with the mainline.  I'm assuming that's an APL sign, although throughout the whole project I've had a ton of issues on how they did their signing.

Signage design governed by the MUTCD (Manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devices) which has seen a lot of updates in recent times. Biggest impact on I-4 was the previous withdraw of Clearview acceptance, which is now allowable. Apparently I-4 was planning on using Clearview and had to switch back to Highway Gothic (For those who don’t know, look at the signs on the 408 vs I-4, especially words with a lowercase a). There are a few signs along the corridor in the wrong font (The horror....)

[codypet]

@Jerry95 I'm seeing a lot of inconsistency along the I-4 corridor as it pertains to this project.  I know the MUTCD was going through changes throughout the design process as you can see APL in some sections and the older format in others.  Other places the toll sheilds are the incorrect color.  I think it may have to do with when each segment was design and whether they had a revision that required them to update the plans, which then would mean they'd likely update the standards.

The sign above is a similar situation to the one on the SR 408 above, ramp with 2 thru lanes and one exiting without a dedicated lane.  Notice the lack of the exit yellow.  My understanding is this (and the way Kirkman is signed is correct for that time in the MUTCD)

The verdict is out as to whether all three of these exits are going to have dual dedicated exit lanes, but based on the way they're signed, it would indicate they will be.  The signing of the thru movement is what's making me wonder why the inconsistency.

For this one, the SR 528 Toll label should be yellow.

This is an old vs new sign, but you can see the APL (arrow per lane) designation on the new sign.

[Jerry95]

@codypet Not going to quote for length, I agree though with much of the uncertainty by design. 
 

For the exit lanes at Kirkman/TPK/Fairbanks the second from the right lane will be an option lane, not a dedicated lane. I think the logic is that people aren’t using the dedicated lanes now with the White on Green arrow. The signs leading up to the split will only show the right lane as exit only with no indication that the option lane exists. The hope is that more people will use the dedicated lane instead of slowing down in the option lane. 
 

For the Maitland ramps I agree there is no clear standard for exit splits on ramps. This is an issue all over town. 
 

Toll shield colors are another issue - I think CFX and FDOT/TPK like different things for their roadways. Yellow, Green and Purple all have some toll designation and it’s confusing. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Jerry95

[codypet]

@Jerry95 I actually had clarification on the yellow/green toll thing from a close friend because I asked about the inconsistency too.  The way its supposed to work is all toll shields for the road you're already paying tolls on should have the green designation.  However if you're coming off of another roadway  especially a non-tolled one to a toll road, the shield needs to be yellow.  Which is why you see the ones on SR 408 as green when you're on 408, but the ones on the surface streets adjacent to 408 are yellow.  That logic therefore makes the SR 528 on I-4 incorrect as does the SR 408 sign I posted above, but the 429/453 sign in your photo correct.

[Jerry95]

4 minutes ago, codypet said:

@Jerry95 I actually had clarification on the yellow/green toll thing from a close friend because I asked about the inconsistency too.  The way its supposed to work is all toll shields for the road you're already paying tolls on should have the green designation.  However if you're coming off of another roadway  especially a non-tolled one to a toll road, the shield needs to be yellow.  Which is why you see the ones on SR 408 as green when you're on 408, but the ones on the surface streets adjacent to 408 are yellow.  That logic therefore makes the SR 528 on I-4 incorrect as does the SR 408 sign I posted above, but the 429/453 sign in your photo correct.

Thanks for the clarification. Glad there's some pattern although the whole thing does seem rather unnecessary.

[codypet]

I believe the state preferred the green Toll, but when the MUTCD made language related to toll roads around 2011, they scrutinized the language to determine if there were any places to keep green.  Yellow doesn't exactly hold up very well in the sun here.  Although new coatings are getting better.

[Uncommon]

Does anyone know if there are any street closures, whether temporary or not, to promote social distancing in downtown Orlando?

[smileguy]

12 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Does anyone know if there are any street closures, whether temporary or not, to promote social distancing in downtown Orlando?

There are not. My understanding is that there is a group inside City Hall looking to recommend 10 or so streets and public rights of way that might be activated to promote social distancing. 
Private parking lots and sidewalks adjacent to a business can be used for outdoor seating at this time.

[Uncommon]

5 minutes ago, smileguy said:

There are not. My understanding is that there is a group inside City Hall looking to recommend 10 or so streets and public rights of way that might be activated to promote social distancing. 
Private parking lots and sidewalks adjacent to a business can be used for outdoor seating at this time.

Thanks. Just asking because I know a lot of cities are doing it, and some are doing it permanently. I’m gonna check out Bayshore Dr tomorrow in St. Pete since they’ve closed it entirely to traffic. I really wish Orlando would do that with the Church St station area or the parts of Central and Orange that have the heaviest pedestrian traffic.

[codypet]

On 5/21/2020 at 12:28 PM, Jerry95 said:

@codypet Not going to quote for length, I agree though with much of the uncertainty by design. 
 

For the exit lanes at Kirkman/TPK/Fairbanks the second from the right lane will be an option lane, not a dedicated lane. I think the logic is that people aren’t using the dedicated lanes now with the White on Green arrow. The signs leading up to the split will only show the right lane as exit only with no indication that the option lane exists. The hope is that more people will use the dedicated lane instead of slowing down in the option lane. 

 

I agree, though IMO the solution wasn't to make the option lane yellow.  (I know that's what the MUTCD says) just personally I think you lose information on the sign doing that.  Which is why despite the gigantic signs, I'm a fan of the APL signs.   I don't necessarily love the giant signs, so the APL like this one I think is cool.  Not too big and you still get the information across.

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by codypet

[DowntownMike]

On 5/22/2020 at 8:03 AM, codypet said:

@Jerry95 I actually had clarification on the yellow/green toll thing from a close friend because I asked about the inconsistency too.  The way its supposed to work is all toll shields for the road you're already paying tolls on should have the green designation.  However if you're coming off of another roadway  especially a non-tolled one to a toll road, the shield needs to be yellow.  Which is why you see the ones on SR 408 as green when you're on 408, but the ones on the surface streets adjacent to 408 are yellow.  That logic therefore makes the SR 528 on I-4 incorrect as does the SR 408 sign I posted above, but the 429/453 sign in your photo correct.

You could make the argument that SR 528 is a "free" road until US 17/92/441? *Shrugs* 

Road sign consistency is a pet peeve of mine though.....

[codypet]

2 hours ago, DowntownMike said:

You could make the argument that SR 528 is a "free" road until US 17/92/441? *Shrugs* 

Road sign consistency is a pet peeve of mine though.....

If they were highlighting that, they wouldn't have the word Toll on the shield like it used to in the 90s and like they do still East of I95.  Regarding consistency,  I forgot Maitland has the APL signs on top of all of the other inconsistent signs.

[spenser1058]

Eastbound (*thinks of Jerry Reed*} I-4 ramp from Anderson St. closed until June 22:

https://twitter.com/i4ultimate/status/1265342274310995970?s=21

https://youtu.be/jAG4XXCOj48

 

[spenser1058]

CFX announces Split Oak Forest toll road to be delayed until 2034 (nope, that’s not a typo). Environmentalists rejoice for now:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/os-ne-cfx-split-oak-forest-parkway-20200528-a32y4hjznbavvavq43cz3hdnjq-story.html

From the Sentinel 

[dcluley98]

Dare I mention trees? 

[spenser1058]

11 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Dare I mention trees? 

SAVE THE TREE!

[Uncommon]

[HankStrong]

[spenser1058]

You can’t get there from here - all the I-4 road closures currently underway:

https://bungalower.com/2020/06/01/road-alert-multiple-road-closures-through-downtown-this-month/

From Bungalower 

[spenser1058]

Ode to an expressway junction: a love letter to the intersection of I-4 and the Spessard L. Holland East-West Expressway (FL 408):

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/os-ne-i4-408-interchange-explained-20200608-ms7jf55ybvftddagsrjkqto6ue-story.html
 

From the Sentinel 

[EngineerNole]

On 5/21/2020 at 8:25 AM, codypet said:

@Jerry95 I'm seeing a lot of inconsistency along the I-4 corridor as it pertains to this project.  I know the MUTCD was going through changes throughout the design process as you can see APL in some sections and the older format in others.  Other places the toll sheilds are the incorrect color.  I think it may have to do with when each segment was design and whether they had a revision that required them to update the plans, which then would mean they'd likely update the standards.

The sign above is a similar situation to the one on the SR 408 above, ramp with 2 thru lanes and one exiting without a dedicated lane.  Notice the lack of the exit yellow.  My understanding is this (and the way Kirkman is signed is correct for that time in the MUTCD)

The verdict is out as to whether all three of these exits are going to have dual dedicated exit lanes, but based on the way they're signed, it would indicate they will be.  The signing of the thru movement is what's making me wonder why the inconsistency.

For this one, the SR 528 Toll label should be yellow.

This is an old vs new sign, but you can see the APL (arrow per lane) designation on the new sign.

In your first picture, it’s hard to say without seeing the roadway beneath it.  However, I would assume that there is no dedicated lane for that exit.  In other words, you can continue on the mainline from the far right lane.

On 5/21/2020 at 12:28 PM, Jerry95 said:

@codypet Not going to quote for length, I agree though with much of the uncertainty by design. 
 

For the exit lanes at Kirkman/TPK/Fairbanks the second from the right lane will be an option lane, not a dedicated lane. I think the logic is that people aren’t using the dedicated lanes now with the White on Green arrow. The signs leading up to the split will only show the right lane as exit only with no indication that the option lane exists. The hope is that more people will use the dedicated lane instead of slowing down in the option lane. 
 

For the Maitland ramps I agree there is no clear standard for exit splits on ramps. This is an issue all over town. 
 

Toll shield colors are another issue - I think CFX and FDOT/TPK like different things for their roadways. Yellow, Green and Purple all have some toll designation and it’s confusing. 

 

 

 

 

Purple is explicitly for express lanes.  Toll does not always equal express.  In fact, the Turnpike now has express lanes on its toll road with higher rates.

[aent]

12 hours ago, EngineerNole said:

Purple is explicitly for express lanes.  Toll does not always equal express.  In fact, the Turnpike now has express lanes on its toll road with higher rates.

Purple is for lanes that do not accept cash and require users to pre-register in an electronic tolling system.

My understanding the shields is the interpretation of the rules for the color of the toll banner is purple background if electronic only, no cash accepted, yellow toll banner if the sign is leading you to entering a toll road, and a green background if you are remaining on a toll road (to indicate no new information).

Also I don't think they banned the downward aiming arrows, they only banned two arrows pointing at the same lane, so if they wish to sign both components of a lane split, then they need the APL, but the old signs work otherwise.