389 North (AKA Zoi House) | 41-Story Mixed-Use [Proposed]

[orange87]

7 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

I don’t think a 400 foot tower does anything to make a city more “real,” whatever that means. For me, it’s solely for aesthetic purposes and the civic pride that comes with having a nice, tall, dense, recognizable skyline. 

You don't think having (somewhat) tall buildings instead of vacant lots makes us closer to a real city? Thank god you don't run Orlando.

[Uncommon]

42 minutes ago, orange87 said:

You don't think having (somewhat) tall buildings instead of vacant lots makes us closer to a real city? Thank god you don't run Orlando.

Thank god you’re not running Orlando either. Seems like you’d favor mindlessly building a bunch of empty condos everywhere, regardless of how they fit with the architecture or how they impact street level, just as long as they’re 400 feet tall.

[JFW657]

57 minutes ago, orange87 said:

You don't think having (somewhat) tall buildings instead of vacant lots makes us closer to a real city? Thank god you don't run Orlando.

It's just differing opinions on a forum and nothing more,

And it's not like our preferences expressed here carry any weight.

I'd like to see something more to scale for that block, too.

[spenser1058]

What’s sort of funny is that, in the era of the International Style which flowered in the US in the 50’s and ‘60’s, the whole idea was to erect buildings that would be interchangeable to any location in the world.

The postmodern era starting in the late ‘70’s with the AT&T building sought to dial back some of that anonymity but the results were often cartoonish.

Which brings us to another problem.  Victor Gruen, father of the shopping mall, eventually refused to be recognized for that as developers value-engineered and cookie-cuttered the concept into the banal edifices we think of today, the majority of which are on their way to tear down. Reminiscent of Baker Barrios office buildings, hmmm?

It’s not an accident that the three notable towers downtown were built for institutions that ha(d)ve deep roots in Orlando. The buildings we get today are unremarkable because the developers putting them up do so to maximize profit, not to worry about a sense of place.

The majority of Americans could not tell one skyline from another. The fastest way to identify a city in a movie, TV show or digital presentation is rarely a building.

For example, St Louis? You’d show the Arch. San Francisco? The Golden Gate Bridge or the cable cars. LA? The Hollywood sign and a quick sweep of the ocean. I can name several others.

Although everyone here will hate it, the most recognizable symbol of Orange County is a 189’ castle made of gypsum plaster on a steel frame.

Orlando proper’s most familiar icon? Lake Eola and the fountain (don’t believe me? check the street signs).

Further, as Disney CEO Bob Iger has noted, companies are going to seriously rethink the amount of office space they really need once the economy resumes. That was already underway - do you think it was an accident SunTrust and BoA both recently moved to much smaller buildings downtown?

The bloom is also off the rose on the idea of living in overpriced, closet size warrens. As a result, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd largest cities have all lost population in the last decade.

We need to rethink what makes a downtown desirable and tall, sterile buildings were already going into a rethink phase that will only accelerate once COVID-19 passes.

The NY Times had a great article on this which I placed in the Coffee House/Cool Stuff In Other Cities thread.

Edited April 20, 2020 by spenser1058

[dcluley98]

[spenser1058]

I also wonder, if indeed the I4 Corridor is going to become a megalopolis (whether anyone calls it Orlampa or not), does a major downtown in Orlando become redundant to Tampa?

No one expects any other city in the region to keep up with Orlando- given the nature of our economy, doesn’t Tampa become the preeminent central city? I don’t know the answer to that - I’m just curious.

[Uncommon]

8 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

I also wonder, if indeed the I4 Corridor is going to become a megalopolis (whether anyone calls it Orlampa or not), does a major downtown in Orlando become redundant to Tampa?

No one expects any other city in the region to keep up with Orlando- given the nature of our economy, doesn’t Tampa become the preeminent central city? I don’t know the answer to that - I’m just curious.

Probably. I think we’d be the Oakland or San Jose to Tampa’s San Francisco (even though San Jose technically has its own MSA).

[jrs2]

15 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

I also wonder, if indeed the I4 Corridor is going to become a megalopolis (whether anyone calls it Orlampa or not), does a major downtown in Orlando become redundant to Tampa?

No one expects any other city in the region to keep up with Orlando- given the nature of our economy, doesn’t Tampa become the preeminent central city? I don’t know the answer to that - I’m just curious.

that's a toughie.

Personally I don't see Orlando and Tampa ever becoming one MSA or CSA.  Both Orlando's and Tampa's downtowns will continue to grow, and there is also a lot of other urban infill projects u/c recently.  For every one of those 4-6 story apartment buildings going up, that's one less expansive old style apartment community taking up a big chunk of land and continuing outward growth or sprawl.  Just look at the Orange Ave and/or central "spine" corridor(s) outside of downtown, you've got the Pineloch & Orange project, Novel Lucerne (unless that's considered downtown), The Ivy near FH South, a new Ustler project site clearing as we speak between it and Orange Ave, the Harmon & Clay apartment building just south of Calvary Orlando, and, what appears to be it's twin at Oglesby & Clay to the north of Calvary Orlando.  Then you've got the apartment building u/c next to The Majesty Bldg along I-4 in Altamonte.  We already know about that group of apartment buildings in Maitland town center area.  And we already know about the Ivanhoe apartment buildings u/c as well.  I -Drive between Central Fla Pkwy and the Outlets has filled up in the past 5 years with apartments (Citi Lakes; Ancora); new apartments behind the Outlet mall (Solstice) as well;  Not to mention Altis Sand Lake, Integra Cove, Axis West, and Sea Isle next to Sea World. The Courtney at Universal near Vista Cay; the property next to it; and the property to the east of TopGolf just south of Martin.  And Hanover Dr. Phillips behind that Wal-Mart. M2 at Millenia recently finished, as did M North and the Addison on Millenia.    I've left out a lot, these are a lot of high density projects filling in the gaps.

I think this will be the trend. Championsgate and Reunion are adding new units to their properties, but between US 27 and most of Polk County, along I-4, it is predominantly rural because of the swamps and protected land.  However, looking at the US 27 corridor going N/S and US 1792, 544, 542, and 540 going E/W, then yes, that density and added density could more or less connect the two metros as it fills in further.  In that respect, then, yes, it could happen before Jesus returns.

I don't know if Tampa would become the preeminent central city, though.  I mean, dating back to the late '80's, with the advent of Westshore combined with downtown and all the big business dealings along Dale Mabry just across the street and to the north of the Wal-Mart, yes, it would 'should-be' the preeminent central city.  But, because of the combination of Ivanhoe, Lucerne, Eola South, CV, the two hospital systems' properties,  and the CBD, the downtown core in Orlando is just developing just too fast and vastly (as it continues to fill in) for Tampa to be the clear leader.  Tampa would have the edge, though, with the Port, TCC, Ibor, UT, Tampa General, all more or less downtown.  Tampa has the Port so I would give it the edge.

Orlando has a lot of the same kinds of businesses and office that Tampa has, but you've got to go as far as Lake Mary to the north to see some of them; same with Tampa ala the I-75 corridor.

Conclusion:  throw in tourism, air traffic, rail connectivity (such as it is),  the convention industry and Orlando is considered the preeminent central "city" in the region whether it is in actuality or not.  I say Rail connectivity because I believe the AAF train to Miami will be running for a long time before then extend it to Tampa, which will put Orlando in a category with Miami ala this connection that Tampa will not have- actually, you'll have to go through Orlando to get to Tampa so Tampa won't ever have that even if they get the link; the notoriety of that will be huge- even though SoFla cities would receive a greater direct impact than Orlando would (city-wise).  But, Tampa has the marketing of the NFL and NHL and MLB, while Orlando just has NBA and MLS.  Tourism is the major game changer, though.  Between Disney and Universal, Orlando gets the equivalent of those Tampa Bay sports crowds daily maybe by a factor of 2.

Ah, geez...I'm all over the place... 

[spenser1058]

5 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

that's a toughie.

Personally I don't see Orlando and Tampa ever becoming one MSA or CSA.  Both Orlando's and Tampa's downtowns will continue to grow, and there is also a lot of other urban infill projects u/c recently.  For every one of those 4-6 story apartment buildings going up, that's one less expansive old style apartment community taking up a big chunk of land and continuing outward growth or sprawl.  Just look at the Orange Ave and/or central "spine" corridor(s) outside of downtown, you've got the Pineloch & Orange project, Novel Lucerne (unless that's considered downtown), The Ivy near FH South, a new Ustler project site clearing as we speak between it and Orange Ave, the Harmon & Clay apartment building just south of Calvary Orlando, and, what appears to be it's twin at Oglesby & Clay to the north of Calvary Orlando.  Then you've got the apartment building u/c next to The Majesty Bldg along I-4 in Altamonte.  We already know about that group of apartment buildings in Maitland town center area.  And we already know about the Ivanhoe apartment buildings u/c as well.  I -Drive between Central Fla Pkwy and the Outlets has filled up in the past 5 years with apartments (Citi Lakes; Ancora); new apartments behind the Outlet mall (Solstice) as well;  Not to mention Altis Sand Lake, Integra Cove, Axis West, and Sea Isle next to Sea World. The Courtney at Universal near Vista Cay; the property next to it; and the property to the east of TopGolf just south of Martin.  And Hanover Dr. Phillips behind that Wal-Mart. M2 at Millenia recently finished, as did M North and the Addison on Millenia.    I've left out a lot, these are a lot of high density projects filling in the gaps.

I think this will be the trend. Championsgate and Reunion are adding new units to their properties, but between US 27 and most of Polk County, along I-4, it is predominantly rural because of the swamps and protected land.  However, looking at the US 27 corridor going N/S and US 1792, 544, 542, and 540 going E/W, then yes, that density and added density could more or less connect the two metros as it fills in further.  In that respect, then, yes, it could happen before Jesus returns.

I don't know if Tampa would become the preeminent central city, though.  I mean, dating back to the late '80's, with the advent of Westshore combined with downtown and all the big business dealings along Dale Mabry just across the street and to the north of the Wal-Mart, yes, it would 'should-be' the preeminent central city.  But, because of the combination of Ivanhoe, Lucerne, Eola South, CV, the two hospital systems' properties,  and the CBD, the downtown core in Orlando is just developing just too fast and vastly (as it continues to fill in) for Tampa to be the clear leader.  Tampa would have the edge, though, with the Port, TCC, Ibor, UT, Tampa General, all more or less downtown.  Tampa has the Port so I would give it the edge.

Orlando has a lot of the same kinds of businesses and office that Tampa has, but you've got to go as far as Lake Mary to the north to see some of them; same with Tampa ala the I-75 corridor.

Conclusion:  throw in tourism, air traffic, rail connectivity (such as it is),  the convention industry and Orlando is considered the preeminent central "city" in the region whether it is in actuality or not.  I say Rail connectivity because I believe the AAF train to Miami will be running for a long time before then extend it to Tampa, which will put Orlando in a category with Miami ala this connection that Tampa will not have- actually, you'll have to go through Orlando to get to Tampa so Tampa won't ever have that even if they get the link; the notoriety of that will be huge- even though SoFla cities would receive a greater direct impact than Orlando would (city-wise).  But, Tampa has the marketing of the NFL and NHL and MLB, while Orlando just has NBA and MLS.  Tourism is the major game changer, though.  Between Disney and Universal, Orlando gets the equivalent of those Tampa Bay sports crowds daily maybe by a factor of 2.

Ah, geez...I'm all over the place... 

I guess I’m thinking of places like New England. There really is only one major city - Boston.

Hartford, Providence, etc. all have downtowns (and as state capitals will always have relevance), but Boston is always first of mind. 

Our local government has become very quiet about what our vision for the future should be, but it appears there will be some changes after COVID-19. For one thing, no industry other than cruise lines are more affected on restrictions of group activities than theme parks. How will that change the level of economic activity over time? 

Our good friend Reality always wants to dismiss tourism in favor of higher-paying jobs. We’ve done that - it’s just that theme parks (especially after Harry Potter) have continued to grow faster than we can build the infrastructure for other jobs.

I guess I’m curious, if that’s our new priority, if focusing on downtown is the best allocation of resources. Think about it- the overwhelming majority of tech and professional jobs brought to the area have chosen to go to the ‘burbs (which shouldn’t be surprising- Silicon Valley is.... a giant ‘burb, as is the Research Triangle and Boston’s Route 128).

Should we do what we were doing before Disney and build more links with Brevard and the private space program as well as NASA?

It just seems as though things are going to be changing as we go forward and we’re still thinking in the same old box.

 

[smonteserin]

A  Growthspotter article just confirmed that this project is still on the table, but with a different developer, less office and less retail.  Plans call for 39 stories, 25 fewer apts, 42,000 fewer square feet of retail.  Essentially there are on 10,000 sq ft of retail now.  that feels like a significant reduction but lost only two floors, as it was listed before as 41 stories.  

https://www.growthspotter.com/news/downtown-orlando-developments/gs-news-zoi-tower-update-20200420-uidg44w3ojdxxfuu37cqozpbgy-story.html

[orange87]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

I guess I’m thinking of places like New England. There really is only one major city - Boston.

Hartford, Providence, etc. all have downtowns (and as state capitals will always have relevance), but Boston is always first of mind. 

Our local government has become very quiet about what our vision for the future should be, but it appears there will be some changes after COVID-19. For one thing, no industry other than cruise lines are more affected on restrictions of group activities than theme parks. How will that change the level of economic activity over time? 

Our good friend Reality always wants to dismiss tourism in favor of higher-paying jobs. We’ve done that - it’s just that theme parks (especially after Harry Potter) have continued to grow faster than we can build the infrastructure for other jobs.

I guess I’m curious, if that’s our new priority, if focusing on downtown is the best allocation of resources. Think about it- the overwhelming majority of tech and professional jobs brought to the area have chosen to go to the ‘burbs (which shouldn’t be surprising- Silicon Valley is.... a giant ‘burb, as is the Research Triangle and Boston’s Route 128).

Should we do what we were doing before Disney and build more links with Brevard and the private space program as well as NASA?

It just seems as though things are going to be changing as we go forward and we’re still thinking in the same old box.

 

I really like New Haven. It's like a mini NYC. It has Yale, world class museums, culture, food, shopping, beautiful architecture and very walkable.

[DreS0803]

1 hour ago, smonteserin said:

A  Growthspotter article just confirmed that this project is still on the table, but with a different developer, less office and less retail.  Plans call for 39 stories, 25 fewer apts, 42,000 fewer square feet of retail.  Essentially there are on 10,000 sq ft of retail now.  that feels like a significant reduction but lost only two floors, as it was listed before as 41 stories.  

https://www.growthspotter.com/news/downtown-orlando-developments/gs-news-zoi-tower-update-20200420-uidg44w3ojdxxfuu37cqozpbgy-story.html

Glad that this is back on the table. Good catch though, maybe the units will have more square footage?

Edited April 20, 2020 by DreS0803

[smonteserin]

20 hours ago, DreS0803 said:

Glad that this is back on the table. Good catch though, maybe the units will have more square footage?

I couldn't tell from the picture of the rendering they posted, as it doesn't look altogether that different.  I'm happy that it didn't get as ORLANDOED as other projects that have passed through the gauntlet. 

[Tim3167]

Pretty sure the rendering posted was just of previous design.

[dcluley98]

Yeah. I checked MPB site and they didn't have the submittal staff report. They just had on there  that it was submitted. 

 

[jrs2]

On 4/20/2020 at 4:45 PM, spenser1058 said:

I guess I’m thinking of places like New England. There really is only one major city - Boston.

Hartford, Providence, etc. all have downtowns (and as state capitals will always have relevance), but Boston is always first of mind. 

Our local government has become very quiet about what our vision for the future should be, but it appears there will be some changes after COVID-19. For one thing, no industry other than cruise lines are more affected on restrictions of group activities than theme parks. How will that change the level of economic activity over time? 

Our good friend Reality always wants to dismiss tourism in favor of higher-paying jobs. We’ve done that - it’s just that theme parks (especially after Harry Potter) have continued to grow faster than we can build the infrastructure for other jobs.

I guess I’m curious, if that’s our new priority, if focusing on downtown is the best allocation of resources. Think about it- the overwhelming majority of tech and professional jobs brought to the area have chosen to go to the ‘burbs (which shouldn’t be surprising- Silicon Valley is.... a giant ‘burb, as is the Research Triangle and Boston’s Route 128).

Should we do what we were doing before Disney and build more links with Brevard and the private space program as well as NASA?

It just seems as though things are going to be changing as we go forward and we’re still thinking in the same old box.

great points.  I'm thinking that if they keep building downtown and throw money at the KPM&G's of the world b/c of the proximity of OIA, and to continue supporting the convention industry, to keep doing that.  Disney and Universal are going to continue to spend their money so they'll always be ok.  But the more Orlando lures companies here the more the name gets out as a viable option in that marketplace to open up shop.  For example, Volusia in the past 5-6 years has opened up huge distribution centers for Trader Joes and B. Braun, with Amazon u/c.

this project... I'm glad it's still "alive."  But keep in mind that big developers like Lincoln, Camden, the Crescent people, the people that built Skyhouse, the people that built CitiTower, etc., etc., they all look at their portfolios and those of other developers and see which cities are "hot" for their types of developments. So just like when Bloomie's opens up in Orlando or JW Marriott or even DeLoitte, or a new residential project from Citi, each of those is a big deal because they each bring focus to the region and collectively they improve the region. So this should be the focus for Orange County and it's respective neighbors, with projects like BRIDG, Medical City, or even major office parks.

Tourism and what Reality focusses on go hand in hand.  With Orlando, I'd like to say that tourism begat the other, but that's not entirely accurate.  Tourism begat the need for better amenities like you see in large cities (hotels, retail, airport, etc.).  But geography more or less begat some of these other industries Orlando has grown since the 1950's.  You need to focus on both I think.  

[dcluley98]

EA Orlando Studio moving to CV is also a pretty big deal. I think that could act as a catalyst for others to do the same. EA just did the bid process for the interior fit-out and should start construction  this year. The Core and Shell will begin very soon. It's a very technically advanced 5 story class A office building with ALL the cache of tech and design that CV is trying to cultivate.  

Edited April 23, 2020 by dcluley98

[spenser1058]

22 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

EA Orlando Studio moving to CV is also a pretty big deal. I think that could act as a catalyst for others to do the same. EA just did the bid process for the interior fit-out and should start construction  this year. The Core and Shell will begin very soon. It's a very technically advanced 5 story class A office building with ALL the cache of tech and design that CV is trying to cultivate.  

I certainly hope you’re right. The thing is, we’ve been told Orlando was going to become the center of the online gaming industry ever since EA moved to Maitland. That’s about the same amount of time we were told Orlando would be Hollywood East and we’re still waiting for that one.

[jrs2]

34 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I certainly hope you’re right. The thing is, we’ve been told Orlando was going to become the center of the online gaming industry ever since EA moved to Maitland. That’s about the same amount of time we were told Orlando would be Hollywood East and we’re still waiting for that one.

Yeah... I think that evolved based on which online games were becoming hot, like Halo and Call of Duty series.  Now, Halo...not so much anymore...  Call of Duty keeps churning them out year after year.  I know the NFL games come out every year as well, I just don't know how popular they still are.

But, I would bet that EA in downtown would help cultivate that- a lot more successfully than it could isolated in Maitland all these years.  I'm assuming there will be some sort of incubator(s) at CV?

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, jrs2 said:

Yeah... I think that evolved based on which online games were becoming hot, like Halo and Call of Duty series.  Now, Halo...not so much anymore...  Call of Duty keeps churning them out year after year.  I know the NFL games come out every year as well, I just don't know how popular they still are.

But, I would bet that EA in downtown would help cultivate that- a lot more successfully than it could isolated in Maitland all these years.  I'm assuming there will be some sort of incubator(s) at CV?

I think that’s right and hopefully being in the middle of UCF/VD we’ll achieve some sort of critical mass and there will be an exponential growth from there.

It’s fashionable to dismiss talk of economic clusters here but we have several. SW Orange is a great example. In 1970, Orlando basically had no tourism industry other than housewives descending on the swamps of 441 once a year for the Tupperware Jubilee (it’s why their campus has a huge auditorium, if you’ve ever wondered).

50 years later, there is no bigger tourism cluster in the world and people are angry it ate our local economy. (It’s also how we went from not on the Top 50 MSA list in 1970 to #22 today).

Simulation is also a cluster for us in East Orange that was a spin-off from Martin in the late ‘70’s. It benefitted not only from our defense industry contacts but also from  the tourism folks we just talked about.

Then, of course, there’s Brevard. Core competence in the space program began in the ‘50’s with the military and then the founding of NASA in 1958. Like most government programs, budge cuts almost killed it (after Apollo in the 70’s and post-shuttle in the 2010’s). But a baseline human resource competence was still embedded along with some aging infrastructure. Today, with a little more stability provided by private companies, it’s likely to drive a lot of growth in the region.

And, as much as @orlandouprise hates it, we’ve always been more the sum of the region than just one city. My dad used to drive from West Orlando to Brevard in the ‘60’s every day because that’s where the money was. Then, after Apollo, the customers he sold to all picked up work back here in Orlando as WDW and FTU were built.

Orlando has one of the densest cohorts of college students within a 100-mile radius of any second tier city in the country. Those kids come for the theme parks, the ocean and the engineer geeks for the space program, but they stay because, despite what you hear, schools like UCF and FIT have phenomenal records for placing STEM talent. In fact, FPU is placing a huge emphasis on developing engineers as it grows.

[dcluley98]

Don't forget Florida PolyTech in Lakeland, Spenser. 43 miles from downtown on      I-4  , even less from Disney and I-Drive, and   maybe a HS train away in the future. 
Plus it's really close to Winter Haven and "Mountain" Bike trails.

Sorry for threadjack. 

[spenser1058]

12 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Don't forget Florida PolyTech in Lakeland, Spenser. 43 miles from downtown on      I-4  , even less from Disney and I-Drive, and   maybe a HS train away in the future. 
Plus it's really close to Winter Haven and "Mountain" Bike trails.

Sorry for threadjack. 

Last sentence -FPU :-) If we ever get a 12th university, could we please build it in town instead of a cow pasture? (Actually, I think FPU might be on top of a reclaimed phosphate mine - when I-4 first opened in the ‘60’s, it looked like just after a nuclear bomb hit - gaping holes and dirt as far as the eye could see.

Edited April 24, 2020 by spenser1058

[dcluley98]

Sorry, Spenser.    Didn't register the acronym. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by dcluley98

[jgardnerucf]

Thar's oil out thar in Orlampa!

[dcluley98]

3 minutes ago, jgardnerucf said:

Thar's oil out thar in Orlampa!

There's also an Airstream Stonehenge!