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389 North (AKA Zoi House) | 41-Story Mixed-Use [Proposed]


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On 4/20/2020 at 1:45 PM, spenser1058 said:

I guess I’m thinking of places like New England. There really is only one major city - Boston.

Hartford, Providence, etc. all have downtowns (and as state capitals will always have relevance), but Boston is always first of mind. 

Our local government has become very quiet about what our vision for the future should be, but it appears there will be some changes after COVID-19. For one thing, no industry other than cruise lines are more affected on restrictions of group activities than theme parks. How will that change the level of economic activity over time? 

Our good friend Reality always wants to dismiss tourism in favor of higher-paying jobs. We’ve done that - it’s just that theme parks (especially after Harry Potter) have continued to grow faster than we can build the infrastructure for other jobs.

I guess I’m curious, if that’s our new priority, if focusing on downtown is the best allocation of resources. Think about it- the overwhelming majority of tech and professional jobs brought to the area have chosen to go to the ‘burbs (which shouldn’t be surprising- Silicon Valley is.... a giant ‘burb, as is the Research Triangle and Boston’s Route 128).

Should we do what we were doing before Disney and build more links with Brevard and the private space program as well as NASA?

It just seems as though things are going to be changing as we go forward and we’re still thinking in the same old box.

 

I've always thought that Tampa / Orlando (and the entire I-4 corridor) would build out similar in fashion to southern California, with multiple nodes of activity across its cities and the various counties functioning in relative isolation to each other culturally, socially, and until recently, politically.  For instance, LA's various business nodes (DTLA, Century City, Koreatown, Hollywood, Miracle Mile, etc.) and then the larger metro with Irvine, Glendale, Burbank, the Valley, all tend to make up the greater whole of a massive area.  Sometimes they compete for prominence, although at least strides are being made to expand mass transit in LA to address the need for greater connectivity.

I'd say that Boston "the Hub" and even the relationship that SF has to Silicon Valley functions in an entirely separate model.  Boston has functioned as the geographic, financial and political hub of New England for 100s of years (much to slight some of the other former industrial cities of New England that suffer in its shadow).  San Jose really spawned out of a desperate need for growth in the Bay area.  It remains one of the few cities where the majority of inner city residents actually drive out to Silicon Valley from SF, rather than driving from the burbs into the city.

All this to say that I don't really ever see Tampa eclipsing Orlando, or vice versa.  Hopefully the region focuses on some major issues that impact all cities/counties, like mass transit, sprawl, political relevance within the state.

Edited by prahaboheme
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On 4/20/2020 at 5:52 PM, smonteserin said:

A  Growthspotter article just confirmed that this project is still on the table, but with a different developer, less office and less retail.  Plans call for 39 stories, 25 fewer apts, 42,000 fewer square feet of retail.  Essentially there are on 10,000 sq ft of retail now.  that feels like a significant reduction but lost only two floors, as it was listed before as 41 stories.  

https://www.growthspotter.com/news/downtown-orlando-developments/gs-news-zoi-tower-update-20200420-uidg44w3ojdxxfuu37cqozpbgy-story.html

From the Submittal it seems there is still 10,000 sf ft of retail, 300 units.

 

But 80,000 sf ft of office instead of 140,000 sf ft and 158 less parking soaces from 697. 

 

Footprint is small. We're still getting a fairly tall building. 

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They've moved dozens around that size where the race track was around the MK parking lot over the past few months and relocated to new medians and what not. Dig around it and put it in a big ol wooden box then flat bed it straight up and down to new home. Pretty cool to see. I dig it. Ha!

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Yes, it can be moved (although with big trees it’s sadly not rare to lose the patient);yes, the cost is usually prohibitive to developers who don’t much give a dang, but it also sort of defeats the point.

One unique feature of Orlando’s downtown was that, even as it grew, the small town setting remained. Grassy settings in front of the post office, St. James’, even what is now PNC and fka SunTrust made our core special even it wasn’t destined to be the tallest.

That fact was a nice complement to what urbanists like William Whyte considered our best selling point: the easy transition between downtown and our in-town residential neighborhoods (very much in contrast with the cities who had destroyed those connections thanks to the interstate system and urban renewal aka “slum clearance”).

William Jovanovich, total New Yorker that he was, when his publishing firm HBJ bought Sea World and he moved the company headquarters here, was having none of it. He wanted concrete all around. But sense of place is everything and he was gone in a New York minute anyway.

Let’s let downtown Orlando embrace what it is and stop trying to make it something it will never be. If we can’t be Florida’s tallest skyline (hint: we aren’t going to be), we can be the most user-friendly downtown.

The more shade trees of significant size and water features we have, the more likely there will be people on the streets. Orlando  can be every bit as brutal in August in its own way as Minneapolis is in February.

Stanley Marcus (of Neiman-Marcus) once observed that it’s far better to be the best possible rabbit coat than a third-rate mink. We need to remember that.

Edited by spenser1058
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25 minutes ago, jgardnerucf said:

They've moved dozens around that size where the race track was around the MK parking lot over the past few months and relocated to new medians and what not. Dig around it and put it in a big ol wooden box then flat bed it straight up and down to new home. Pretty cool to see. I dig it. Ha!

I wonder if power lines would have to be taken down for it to fit under.

It would be nice if they moved it over to Constitution Green or the Eola Park extension.

But, being profit driven private developers, I doubt they'd spend the money.

Would have to be paid for by donations. 

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3 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

I doubt they can move a tree  that large. I am on the "save the tree" campaign. Maybe we can start a petition or something. haha. 

Y'know..... that's not necessarily such an outlandish idea.

If it ever gets to the point that this project is a definite go, a social media campaign done the right way could generate a lot of enthusiasm and possibly donations.

It could become a popular local cause célèbre.  

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26 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Y'know..... that's not necessarily such an outlandish idea.

If it ever gets to the point that this project is a definite go, a social media campaign done the right way could generate a lot of enthusiasm and possibly donations.

It could become a popular local cause célèbre.  

Are we trying to save the tree and not build a 400 footer which is badly needed to keep progressing as a growing metropolis with charm and not end up like Cleveland or are you guys proposing that we can find a way to have them both?  

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The tallest building in Cleveland is 947’ and the city is losing population relative to cities like, ummm, Orlando. Isn’t it funny how unimportant the height of buildings is everywhere except this discussion board?

(Even having a song didn’t help in Cleveland’s case:

https://youtu.be/oKDjis1fg8E

 

 

 

 

Edited by spenser1058
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32 minutes ago, Musikprince said:

Are we trying to save the tree and not build a 400 footer which is badly needed to keep progressing as a growing metropolis with charm and not end up like Cleveland or are you guys proposing that we can find a way to have them both?  

 

17 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

I think that they could easily build a  tall building on the site AND save the tree and incorporate it into the design.  Good design should be able to accomplish both, not either or proposition. 

I think we could too.

I was fiddling around with some (very) basic, ideas awhile ago, and posted them a couple of pages back....

 

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23 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

I think that they could easily build a  tall building on the site AND save the tree and incorporate it into the design.  Good design should be able to accomplish both, not either or proposition. 

But, therein lies the problem. When has a building in Orlando been willing to pay for good design? That only happens if the firm paying for it has ties to the area and isn’t simply maximizing profit. So, in this case. are we dealing with an oxymoron?

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If we can somehow do both, great. Saving the tree and building Zoi House would be the best of both worlds. I hear what you’re saying Spense about having a green downtown. I definitely do not want to become Houston or Phoenix. But I also don’t want a short downtown like San Jose either or one not seeing any development in height at all like Indianapolis or St. Louis

Edited by Uncommon
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I don't know why can't be both, tall towers and vibrant downtown, last time I was in downtown St Pete I saw a lot of people and activity and a couple of tall towers were under construction.

I live in Austin with an impressive downtown and many +400 ft towers and many more under construction and downtown is very vibrant day and night.

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk

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11 minutes ago, Flotex said:

I don't know why can't be both, tall towers and vibrant downtown, last time I was in downtown St Pete I saw a lot of people and activity and a couple of tall towers were under construction.

I live in Austin with an impressive downtown and many +400 ft towers and many more under construction and downtown is very vibrant day and night.

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk
 

It can be both. The people who act like height doesn't matter are different to those of us who enjoy height. 

 

And to those who don't care for height, they find it awkward to talk about it frequently. 

 

Thing is, this is an urban issue forum and height technically isn't apart of that. So it's understandable but its not very effective to keep downing  either or. 

Edited by IAmFloridaBorn
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