389 North (AKA Zoi House) | 41-Story Mixed-Use [Proposed]

[JFW657]

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

That would be consistent with where the Atlanta Braves moved, out of downtown and up to Cobb County. In any event, we’re more likely to get a major expansion of SunRail than a baseball team (Pat Williams’ proposed team name was prophetic -I challenge anyone to find someone in MLB who thinks baseball in Florida has a future other than spring training).

Btw, I notice the Braves’ stadium has already been renamed Truist (yes, I still hate that name, it’s not getting better in my head). I wonder when CSP will be renamed and if there will be signage up top?

Should we ask any of the MLB personnel currently associated with the Tampa Bay Rays or the Miami Marlins about their views on the subject? 

[spenser1058]

25 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Should we ask any of the MLB personnel currently associated with the Tampa Bay Rays or the Miami Marlins about their views on the subject? 

Sure. They’re readily aware they are frequently the two least attended teams in MLB (and have been for a while - not even having really good seasons has made much difference) and no one considers that sustainable over the long term.

MLB is about as popular in Florida as Division 1 college football Is in New England.

Edited July 26, 2020 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

22 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Sure. They’re readily aware they are frequently the two least attended teams in MLB (and have been for a while - not even having really good seasons has made much difference) and no one considers that sustainable over the long term.

MLB is about as popular in Florida as Division 1 college football Is in New England.

While what you say about our two teams' attendance may be true, it can also be said about major league baseball in general.

According to the NYT, attendance is down across the league, but revenue is up....

Quote

Baseball Saw a Million More Empty Seats. Does It Matter?

A 12-year slide in M.L.B. attendance has clubs turning to deals like standing room subscription passes. These days, filling the seats is less crucial to baseball’s bottom line.

Total attendance across 2,429 major league games during the regular season dropped by about 1 million fans this season to about 68.5 million, about 14 percent lower than a high of 79.5 million tickets sold in 2007. The drop for 2019 followed a 2018 season in which total attendance dipped below 70 million for the first time since 2003.

Baseball officials understand their challenges. The games are long. Children — and their parents — can struggle to sit through nine innings. The fan base is aging. Many teams are terrible, with four losing more than 100 games this season. At the same time, league revenue, which topped $10 billion in 2018, is up more than 70 percent from a decade ago, thanks in large part to increasing media rights fees, which reached an all-time high this year.

Those diverging trend lines — fewer fans in the ballpark, but richer media fees and overall revenues — make up an uncomfortable truth about baseball in the 21st century. Ticket sales, long the bread and butter for the sport, are no longer the central driver of the business at a time when the sport’s digital business is ascendant.

The Miami Marlins, who attract the smallest average crowd in baseball, are trying to woo fans with a host of new ticketing options. They include a “ticket bank” in which fans buy credits at a discount before the season that they can use to purchase tickets during it. But with dozens of ticket types, the Marlins risk angering fans who later notice they could have purchased their tickets for cheaper.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/29/sports/baseball/mlb-attendance.html

I think Miami's biggest problem re: attendance is the sweltering summer heat and humidity.

It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, given Miami's Cuban population viewed against the immense popularity of baseball in Cuba, that the game itself would be unpopular there.

.

Edited July 26, 2020 by JFW657

[orlandouprise]

Younger Cuban American born kids don’t care for the sport like the older generation. And heat and humidity? It’s a state of the art stadium with AC!

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, JFW657 said:

While that may be true, it can also be said about major league baseball in general.

According to the NYT, attendance is down across the league, but revenue is up....

I think Miami's biggest problem re: attendance is the sweltering summer heat and humidity.

It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, given Miami's Cuban population viewed against the immense popularity of baseball in Cuba, that the game itself would be unpopular there.

I think South Florida, as the largest MSA in the state and given its demographics, will likely keep the Marlins. It makes sense to have an outpost in the state for the fans we do have.

I think there’s not much appetite for a second team. One big problem for Orlando is that corporate support of teams seems to be important. Our dearth of corporate headquarters doesn’t help in that regard.

 

 

2 minutes ago, orlandouprise said:

Younger Cuban American born kids don’t care for the sport like the older generation. And heat and humidity? It’s a state of the art stadium with AC!

I have wondered about that - it’s anecdotal but I noticed the interest among younger Hispanics that I worked with before being sent off to work at home seemed to be less on baseball and more on soccer.

[JFW657]

37 minutes ago, orlandouprise said:

Younger Cuban American born kids don’t care for the sport like the older generation. And heat and humidity? It’s a state of the art stadium with AC!

Apparently, neither the A/C or the retractable roof or much of anything else about the stadium is very popular with Miamians....

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/six-lies-about-the-marlins-stadium-6380692 

[spenser1058]

Another thing with MLB I wonder about is whether it’s being affected at the margins by CWS.

Years ago, CWS wasn’t much of a thing. ESPN and the other cable sports networks changed that. Today, when it comes to baseball, I have more friends interested in how UF and FSU are doing than in the Rays or the Marlins (UCF has a solid baseball team but it is far from ready to declare itself a National Champion yet - just give Danny a few years...)

Maybe that’s just who’s in my my bubble but it’s different than they are on football. They’re all about FBS on Saturday but just as passionate about the NFL on Sunday. For whatever reason, they’re not like that about baseball.
 

 

[orange87]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Another thing with MLB I wonder about is whether it’s being affected at the margins by CWS.

Years ago, CWS wasn’t much of a thing. ESPN and the other cable sports networks changed that. Today, when it comes to baseball, I have more friends interested in how UF and FSU are doing than in the Rays or the Marlins (UCF has a solid baseball team but it is far from ready to declare itself a National Champion yet - just give Danny a few years...)

Maybe that’s just who’s in my my bubble but it’s different than they are on football. They’re all about FBS on Saturday but just as passionate about the NFL on Sunday. For whatever reason, they’re not like that about baseball.

The Marlins are fine. They have a new stadium, they're in a world class city and have won two World Series.

The Rays on the other hand, have several issues to iron out. They have a former minor league hockey stadium as their MLB stadium. To make matters worse, it's in a horrible location. It's not even in Tampa, and it's a ways away from the busy area of St. Pete. They're perennial contenders in the most important MLB division (AL East) despite having very little money. They have some of the smartest minds in baseball running that team. They're similar to the Oakland Athletics in that respect. You just have to wonder how well they'd do if they had more money and a REAL stadium in a better location.

[spenser1058]

Just now, orange87 said:

The Marlins are fine. They have a new stadium, they're in a world class city and have won two World Series.

The Rays on the other hand, have several issues to iron out. They have a former minor league hockey stadium as their MLB stadium. To make matters worse, it's in a horrible location. It's not even in Tampa, and it's a ways away from the busy area of St. Pete. They're perennial contenders in the most important MLB division (AL East) despite having very little money. They have some of the smartest minds in baseball running that team. They're similar to the Oakland Athletics in that respect. You just have to wonder how well they'd do if they had more money and a REAL stadium in a better location.

If the Marlins are fine, why are they on the bottom of MLB attendance with Tampa? I’m not really an MLB fan so I’m curious how that’s sustainable (it’s been that way for years - they used to blame the problem on the stadium; as you noted, they fixed that, but nothing much has changed).

That leads us to the Rays - again they blame all their problems on the Trop but, they seem to be in the same boat as Miami.

Both Miami and Tampa Bay have lousy attendance even when their teams are awesome.

The common denominator, it seems, as Tim Russert used to say: Florida, Florida, Florida.

 

[orange87]

28 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

If the Marlins are fine, why are they on the bottom of MLB attendance with Tampa? I’m not really an MLB fan so I’m curious how that’s sustainable (it’s been that way for years - they used to blame the problem on the stadium; as you noted, they fixed that, but nothing much has changed).

That leads us to the Rays - again they blame all their problems on the Trop but, they seem to be in the same boat as Miami.

Both Miami and Tampa Bay have lousy attendance even when their teams are awesome.

The common denominator, it seems, as Tim Russert used to say: Florida, Florida, Florida.

You're right that both teams have poor attendance. I don't think that's the complete picture though. Unlike the Rays, the Marlins owners have lots of money. They just don't spend it. Derek Jeter is part of the Marlins ownership now and he's made some positive changes to the team across the board. Hopefully he can get things going for the team again. The previous Marlins owner bought a whole team of expensive All-Star players to try to convince the city of Miami to spend tax dollars on a new stadium for the Marlins. As soon as he got the new stadium, he gutted the payroll and traded away all his high paid stars for prospects. It was a really slimy thing to do.

Edited July 26, 2020 by orange87

[spenser1058]

5 minutes ago, orange87 said:

You're right that both teams have poor attendance. I don't think that's the complete picture though. Unlike the Rays, the Marlins owners have lots of money. They just don't spend it. Derek Jeter is part of the Marlins ownership now and he's made some positive changes to the team across the board. Hopefully he can get things going for the team again. The previous Marlins owner bought a whole team of expensive All-Star players to try to convince the city of Miami to spend tax dollars on a new stadium for the Marlins. As soon as he got the new stadium, he gutted the payroll and traded away all his high paid stars for prospects. It was a really slimy thing to do.

Interesting. Let’s hope they can make an awesome franchise from it.

[spenser1058]

I was thinking about @Jernigan’s Sanford idea. A baseball park overlooking Lake Monroe would be awesome.

I’d rather have it downtown but that wouldn’t work if we want a SunRail stop so maybe something in between.

I4 would provide easy access for Volusia retirees and, when the Wekiva Parkway’s done for the Lake County/Villages crowd.

We’d just need to do something with FL 46 for the Brevard folks.

When @JFW657 and I retire we can sit in the cheap seats and throw out gratuitous comments just like Statler and Waldorf.

Beer and brats from Hollerbach’s would make it perfect.

Edited July 26, 2020 by spenser1058

[elefants]

1 hour ago, orange87 said:

The Marlins are fine. They have a new stadium, they're in a world class city and have won two World Series.

If the team is dead last in attendance and among the worst in television ratings, I wouldn't consider them fine.  Their most recent world series win barely moved them up in the rankings and their 8 year old stadium is putting up End-of-Days Montreal Expo attendance numbers lately.  Derek Jeter and his 4% stake in the Marlins has his work cut out for him.

1 hour ago, orange87 said:

The Rays on the other hand, have several issues to iron out. They have a former minor league hockey stadium as their MLB stadium. 

The stadium was built specifically to go after a baseball team.   Granted it's not the best design, but that's basically like saying the Magic play in a minor league hockey stadium because the Solar Bears use it.

1 hour ago, orange87 said:

To make matters worse, it's in a horrible location. It's not even in Tampa, and it's a ways away from the busy area of St. Pete.

It's literally in downtown St Pete.   I don't know what the busy area of St. Pete is if that isn't it.  It's barely over a mile from the waterfront.

That said, it would do better in Tampa.  It is a crying shame the Ybor plan fell through.  The fan base is there and the television ratings (while not the best, but still respectable) hint towards that.

[JFW657]

Boy, oh boy, are we in for a scolding. 

Dragging this thread so far off topic. 

The only thing that could make the situation worse is if we began talking about how many TREES we'd like to see around our conceptual stadium.

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

I was thinking about @Jernigan’s Sanford idea. A baseball park overlooking Lake Monroe would be awesome.

I’d rather have it downtown but that wouldn’t work if we want a SunRail stop so maybe something in between.

I4 would provide easy access for Volusia retirees and, when the Wekiva Parkway’s done for the Lake County/Villages crowd.

We’d just need to do something with FL 46 for the Brevard folks.

When @JFW657 and I retire we can sit in the cheap seats and throw out gratuitous comments just like Statler and Waldorf.

Beer and brats from Hollerbach’s would make it perfect.

You had me at beer and brats.

[spenser1058]

Just now, JFW657 said:

Boy, oh boy, are we in for a scolding. 

Dragging this thread so far off topic. 

The only thing that could make the situation worse is if we began talking about how many TREES we'd like to see around our conceptual stadium.

lol - the part I like best is the person who first veered us off into baseball was the one who put up a big pic about getting off topic.

”...a dish best served cold” and all that.

I bet @jgardnerucf will like this idea so much he’ll want to move to Sanford ‘cuz he loves Seminole County so much. After all, it IS “The Natural Choice”.

[elefants]

[Uncommon]

5 hours ago, JFW657 said:

While what you say about our two teams' attendance may be true, it can also be said about major league baseball in general.

According to the NYT, attendance is down across the league, but revenue is up....

I think Miami's biggest problem re: attendance is the sweltering summer heat and humidity.

It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, given Miami's Cuban population viewed against the immense popularity of baseball in Cuba, that the game itself would be unpopular there.

.

Red Herring.

[spenser1058]

Touché.

[spenser1058]

The thing that most amazes me (and I readily admit as a 3rd-generation Floridian that it’s no doubt a culture issue) is a freaking NHL team, the Tampa Bay Lightning, seems to be thriving here.

Talk about a fish out of water but they’re making it work.

Edited July 26, 2020 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, Uncommon said:

Red Herring.

 

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Touché.

B.S.

[Uncommon]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

The thing that most amazes me (and I readily admit as a 3rd-generation Floridian that it’s no doubt a culture issue) is a freaking NHL team, the Tampa Bay Lightning, seems to be thriving here.

Talk about a fish out of water but they’re making it work.

I don’t get it either. But then again, I think if the team were in St. Pete, they would struggle too. I think the Rays would do solid in Tampa proper.

[prahaboheme]

Hockey has gained in popularity across the entire country, MLB has been in decline.

Not to continue on the Boston references, however the Bruins are now the most popular franchise in the city and that occurred in less than a decade.  While the Red Sox continually sell out Fenway Park, it’s largely because it’s so engrained into the culture of the city and the generations where that was passed down. 
Meanwhile, Brady abandoned the Patriots and I am more than happy to see him go to Tampa especially in a year where he can’t play. :p 

[spenser1058]

The Marlins are postponing their next game(s) due to several players testing positive for C-19:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/sports/baseball/marlins-game-canceled.html
 

From the New York Times 

[HankStrong]

[spenser1058]

Hank, you should be very proud of me. I moved the baseball convo from the hijacked thread back to a baseball thread (albeit, a slightly imprecise one...)!