Charlotte / Atlanta High Speed Rail

[Joey_Blackdogg]

https://www.charlottestories.com/sir-richard-branson-might-soon-bring-high-speed-rail-to-charlotte/

With a Virgin/brightline JV high speed rail potentially coming to the southeast, connecting Charlotte and Atlanta, could Greenville see a benefit of being a mid-point along the route? Do you think they would create a stop here? 

[GvilleSC]

1 hour ago, Joey_Blackdogg said:

https://www.charlottestories.com/sir-richard-branson-might-soon-bring-high-speed-rail-to-charlotte/

With a Virgin/brightline JV high speed rail potentially coming to the southeast, connecting Charlotte and Atlanta, could Greenville see a benefit of being a mid-point along the route? Do you think they would create a stop here? 

They'd be crazy not to tap into a 1,000,000+ population center. And, local/state officials would be crazy not to do their part to tap into the line. 

[PuppiesandKittens]

Brightline has mentioned Charlotte-Atlanta as a possible line for months and nobody in the Upstate has paid much attention.  I find it unlikely, since (1) existing Norfolk Southern tracks are already significantly congested (just check out the Amtrak Crescent's timeliness, particularly northbound), and so (2) Brightline would need to add tracks and work out track use rights with Norfolk Southern or build its own tracks,  but then again, I never thought I'd see the day when a private operator built its own passenger rail line, which Brightline has done.

Charlotte-Greenville-Atlanta needs this.  It's a densely populated corridor with just one passenger train per day in each direction, in the middle of the night; similar corridors have multiple trains per day (and Charlotte-Greenville-Atlanta had multiple trains per day until the 1970s), and I-85 is a mess.

I know that many Democrats worship government as the solution to all of life's problems, but the dismal state of transportation in the Charlotte-Greenville-Atlanta market shows that government isn't, and that the private sector should be viewed as a better solution.

Edited December 14, 2018 by PuppiesandKittens

[vicupstate]

I am not a SME on the subject of rail, albeit I do have some knowledge of it. But don't even the 'private' passenger lines get subsidies or exclusive rights or something from the  government. Are they strictly using only private money to lease rail lines and provide the cars? 

[westsider28]

I suspect Brightline would build new tracks on an entirely separate alignment.  The current NS tracks are very physically constrained and winding, which makes adding track and achieving high speeds largely unfeasible.  Not to mention the major way the company makes money is real-estate development at the stations.  This would be much easier to do on a greenfield site where they could control more land.  So I wouldn't expect a station near downtown.

Edit: I think Atlanta to Charlotte will be much more difficult than their Florida route, due to more challenging topography and having to deal with 3 separate states for permitting, ROW acquisition, etc.

Edited December 14, 2018 by westsider28

[gman]

Leaders in Greenville, Spartanburg and Greer are paying attention to this project. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by gman

[PuppiesandKittens]

19 hours ago, vicupstate said:

I am not a SME on the subject of rail, albeit I do have some knowledge of it. But don't even the 'private' passenger lines get subsidies or exclusive rights or something from the  government. Are they strictly using only private money to lease rail lines and provide the cars? 

The only private passenger line in the US (other than museums and tourist trains) is Brightline.  

It used a bond program to issue bonds, for which it is responsible to repay,  that the investors get favorable tax treatment for on the interest.  That’s it.  

It pays for everything else itself- even to maintain some crossings with roads) which governments usually pay for since train tracks were usually built first and roads that cross them were built later).

Very few large private projects have such little reliance on public funds.  

Edited December 15, 2018 by PuppiesandKittens

[cabelagent]

17 hours ago, gman said:

Leaders in Greenville, Spartanburg and Greer are paying attention to this project. 

Perhaps this will be something our grandchildren will utilize and enjoy....

[gman430]

EIS now complete: http://www.dot.ga.gov/IS/Rail/AtlantatoCharlotte/EIS  High speed rail stations proposed at I-85 and Southern Connector along with GSP Airport if the I-85 route is selected, current Amtrak station just west of downtown if the Crescent route is selected, and GSP Airport if the Greenfield route is selected. Page 10 for map of proposed routes: http://www.dot.ga.gov/InvestSmart/Rail/Documents/Atl-Char/02-Executive Summary.pdf

Upcoming public meeting at county square: https://coosavalleynews.com/2019/10/public-comment-sought-on-atlanta-to-charlotte-passenger-rail-corridor/

Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2019
Location: Greenville County Square
301 University Ridge, Suite 400
Greenville, SC 29601
Time: 5:30 – 8 pm

Edited October 18, 2019 by gman430

[PuppiesandKittens]

I love railroads and think that the US needs to significantly increase spending on passenger rail, but just what is the point of these proposals and studies?  They'll never be adopted.  Apart from California, the public sector in the US has never built a high-speed rail system on a route that was not already served by multiple passenger trains per day.  Currently the Upstate only has one passenger train a day in each direction.

Every other corridor that has trains that travel above 100 mph has built such a line incrementally: by adding additional conventional trains from time to time.  Then once there was a high frequency of service, the tracks were improved to allow faster trains. 

Hopefully Brightline/Virgin Trains will come to the Upstate, but if it doesn't, the way to create "high-speed rail" in the US is to start by adding additional regular trains, and then speed them up once there are a lot of them, with significant ridership.  Not by creating pie-in-the-sky studies.  Going from 1 79-mph train per day in each direction to a publicly-financed high-speed rail corridor has never happened in the US, except for California, and its system is still under construction.

[Krugerdk]

On 10/18/2019 at 12:45 AM, gman430 said:

EIS now complete: http://www.dot.ga.gov/IS/Rail/AtlantatoCharlotte/EIS  High speed rail stations proposed at I-85 and Southern Connector along with GSP Airport if the I-85 route is selected, current Amtrak station just west of downtown if the Crescent route is selected, and GSP Airport if the Greenfield route is selected. Page 10 for map of proposed routes: http://www.dot.ga.gov/InvestSmart/Rail/Documents/Atl-Char/02-Executive Summary.pdf

Upcoming public meeting at county square: https://coosavalleynews.com/2019/10/public-comment-sought-on-atlanta-to-charlotte-passenger-rail-corridor/

Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2019
Location: Greenville County Square
301 University Ridge, Suite 400
Greenville, SC 29601
Time: 5:30 – 8 pm

Was just coming here to post this information! I'll be there on Wednesday. 

[PuppiesandKittens]

The Greenville News reports that “light rail” (trolleys/streetcars) may be used for this route, with speeds above 100 mph:

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/local/2019/10/23/multi-billion-dollar-rail-could-connect-greenville-atlanta-charlotte/4052926002/

This isn’t true, right?  High-speed rail will be used, not light rail- right?  Epic fail by the Greenville News.

 

[Joey_Blackdogg]

On 10/18/2019 at 12:45 AM, gman430 said:

EIS now complete: http://www.dot.ga.gov/IS/Rail/AtlantatoCharlotte/EIS  High speed rail stations proposed at I-85 and Southern Connector along with GSP Airport if the I-85 route is selected, current Amtrak station just west of downtown if the Crescent route is selected, and GSP Airport if the Greenfield route is selected. Page 10 for map of proposed routes: http://www.dot.ga.gov/InvestSmart/Rail/Documents/Atl-Char/02-Executive Summary.pdf

Upcoming public meeting at county square: https://coosavalleynews.com/2019/10/public-comment-sought-on-atlanta-to-charlotte-passenger-rail-corridor/

Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2019
Location: Greenville County Square
301 University Ridge, Suite 400
Greenville, SC 29601
Time: 5:30 – 8 pm9and ev

Looks like the decision was made on Sept 30 to prefer the Greenfield route through the  FRA and Georgia DoT. This has positives (the train will be able to move much faster along a new RoW) and negatives (not going directly to the urban core of Greenville and Spartanburg  and missing Clemson all together is a miss, imo & building the new RoW will take more time). Here were the proposed routes as a reminder.

http://www.dot.ga.gov/AboutGeorgia/Pages/ProjectDetails.aspx?postID=9/30/20 9:54 AM - The Federal Rail Administration (FRA) and the Georgia DOT have reviewed comments received during the Tier 1 DEIS public comment period

Edited October 12, 2020 by Joey_Blackdogg

[GvilleSC]

That's rather unfortunate. While I understand that they're probably mostly concerned about folks taking the full trip from Atlanta to Charlotte, the trips that could originate and/or end in the upstate will be reduced with this setup. As a result, it would be great to see Greenville take the initiative to start planning an Airport-to-Downtown transit route.  Ideally, it would eventually take the form of bus rapid transit, or something rail based. 

[Cityplanner]

I love trains and took the Crescent so much earlier this year that I got Select status on Amtrak, but respectfully: state planners need to get a reality check.

Amtrak just cut back the Crescent to three times a week in each direction.  Greenville now doesn't even have once-a-day Amtrak service any more.

Start with the basics: find a funding source to make the Crescent daily again (as who knows if Amtrak's promises to restore daily service in 2021 if various metrics are met are worth anything).  And maybe extend some of the NY-Charlotte trains to Greenville and Atlanta.

Then, once we have at least some bare-bones rail service, then come up with plans for a high-speed system that, while desirable, has little hope of ever getting done, given the costs and given SC state government's lack of interest in passenger rail and lack of funding from Amtrak.

Or maybe try to get Brightline to come to SC.  Brightline is a wonderful train system- much flashier and much more luxurious than Amtrak, and it is expanding in FL and NV.

[sptgguy]

It is sad to see the service cut and I hope to see it come back. Amtrak needs to really work on what it offers and on attracting more riders.  Based on the numbers I found, the Cresent rout carried 291.8K riders in 2019.  I was surprised to see that the Greenville stop had aroud 12K riders consistantly over the past several years. 

[Cityplanner]

Pre-pandemic, the Crescent did quite well; it was often sold out, and prices in sleeping cars are pretty high.  The main issue seems to be a shortage of railcars to carry the passengers it gets.