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How close are we to being a "real" city?


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3 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

You may be right, BUT I doubt we have 45k people living DT. If true Austin with 14k has a TON of retail/food/entertainment options that ORL lacks. why would that be if we really have triple the residents DT?  

It's surprisingly difficult to get good data on downtown populations.  The link below is the best that I've seen but it relies on downtown development agency numbers for each city so the methodology varies.  Orlando ranks very high but the numbers seem suspect.  It's hard to believe that we have more than half the downtown population of downtown Miami, for example.  We just need to add as many units as possible downtown, IMO.

https://iamemenhiser.com/2017/01/08/downtown-residential-population-by-city/

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3 hours ago, Dale said:

Ironically, Charlotte probably ranks higher than Orlando in every department that makes a city a real city. 

And I suppose that makes my point.

And yet Charlotte isn’t on the radar of the average person while Orlando is. Great cities (or even good ones) typically give someone a reason to want to travel there. 

“I’m going to Charlotte for the weekend” - said by no one ever.

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37 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

And yet Charlotte isn’t on the radar of the average person while Orlando is. Great cities (or even good ones) typically give someone a reason to want to travel there.

This. Until this year when we shifted our annual Typical Floridian Go In Search of Leaves trip, we found Asheville a much more interesting place (and dare I say pleasant urban environment) than Charlotte. To each their own, but Charlotte is a great place if you already live there or work in the financial industry, but that's pretty much it. Orlando's also had much more success in terms of diversity than Charlotte, which has been facing adversity within its minority communities.

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10 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

This. Until this year when we shifted our annual Typical Floridian Go In Search of Leaves trip, we found Asheville a much more interesting (and dare I say pleasant urban environment) than Charlotte. To each their own, but Charlotte is a great place if you already live there or work in the financial industry, but that's pretty much it. Orlando's also had much more success in terms of diversity than Charlotte, which has been facing adversity within its minority communities.

Asheville is a wonderful place. And for reasons that do not need to be explained ;)

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36 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

This. Until this year when we shifted our annual Typical Floridian Go In Search of Leaves trip, we found Asheville a much more interesting place (and dare I say pleasant urban environment) than Charlotte. To each their own, but Charlotte is a great place if you already live there or work in the financial industry, but that's pretty much it. Orlando's also had much more success in terms of diversity than Charlotte, which has been facing adversity within its minority communities.

Don’t have any idea what that last bit means.

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29 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

And yet Charlotte isn’t on the radar of the average person while Orlando is. Great cities (or even good ones) typically give someone a reason to want to travel there. 

“I’m going to Charlotte for the weekend” - said by no one ever.

I've been an ex-pat in London for about 10 years, and my American accent perpetually invites conversation.  The conversations start with queries about my origins,  and the interrogators like to drill down to the exact city I'm from, and a subsequent chat about Florida and Orlando ensues.  Often, I get the puzzled, "why would you live here in this terrible weather instead of that wonderful place you're from?" question.  I usually have to explain my history of leaving as a young adult in search of a career.  However, everyone in the UK is well-acquainted with Orlando, at all class levels.  Especially London black cab drivers, who are oddly obsessed with Orlando and have plenty of memories to share.  They even pronounce Kissimmee right! Orlando sits in the same space as NYC, LA, Miami, and Las Vegas in the minds of most Brits.  However, they're never aware of Winter Park or downtown or Mount Dora.  Visit Orlando promotes the hell out of the parks, but some of the more charming bits could use more love IMHO.

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2 minutes ago, jliv said:

I've been an ex-pat in London for about 10 years, and my American accent perpetually invites conversation.  The conversations start with queries about my origins,  and the interrogators like to drill down to the exact city I'm from, and a subsequent chat about Florida and Orlando ensues.  Often, I get the puzzled, "why would you live here in this terrible weather instead of that wonderful place you're from?" question.  I usually have to explain my history of leaving as a young adult in search of a career.  However, everyone in the UK is well-acquainted with Orlando, at all class levels.  Especially London black cab drivers, who are oddly obsessed with Orlando and have plenty of memories to share.  They even pronounce Kissimmee right! Orlando sits in the same space as NYC, LA, Miami, and Las Vegas in the minds of most Brits.  However, they're never aware of Winter Park or downtown or Mount Dora.  Visit Orlando promotes the hell out of the parks, but some of the more charming bits could use more love IMHO.

Very much the same with other western European countries and South American countries. Especially Brazil. 

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59 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

And yet Charlotte isn’t on the radar of the average person while Orlando is. Great cities (or even good ones) typically give someone a reason to want to travel there. 

“I’m going to Charlotte for the weekend” - said by no one ever.

To clarify: I’m not hyping Charlotte, let alone disparaging Orlando, but there is an irony here. The things that provide recognition to Orlando, none of them exist in or near downtown Orlando, thus the recurring need for articles entitled, “Did you know there is another Orlando.” 

Put another way, “I want to vacation in downtown a Orlando!” ... said no one ever.

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I think I will make a trip to Carrowinds and Funtasticks next summer and maybe hop on the Lynx to stop by DT Charlotte. LOL.  (see, if we just had a light rail circulator that would connect I-Drive/Universal/DT/Airport, we could all say that for Orlando with a straight face). 

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Hot take: Retail is overrated.  If you have a drugstore and a grocery store, that fulfills 90% of your errands.  Yeah, a Target would be nice, but that's all that's really necessary.  We buy most of our stuff from Amazon these days.  I've been to Office Depot/Staples twice in the past 4 years.  Old Navy and the ilk like twice a year.  I'm not walking to buy tile from Floor and Decor.  Destination malls already exist for higher-end things.  What retail do you want downtown that's not there?

Also, obligatory Andy's the local urban drunk joke, but we have plenty of food and entertainment offerings.  I've had 3 out of town guests in the past month.  We're downtown for two or three of the days, and then a day in Ivanhoe/Mills.

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4 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

Hot take: Retail is overrated.  If you have a drugstore and a grocery store, that fulfills 90% of your errands.  Yeah, a Target would be nice, but that's all that's really necessary.  We buy most of our stuff from Amazon these days.  I've been to Office Depot/Staples twice in the past 4 years.  Old Navy and the ilk like twice a year.  I'm not walking to buy tile from Floor and Decor.  Destination malls already exist for higher-end things.  What retail do you want downtown that's not there?

Also, obligatory Andy's the local urban drunk joke, but we have plenty of food and entertainment offerings.  I've had 3 out of town guests in the past month.  We're downtown for two or three of the days, and then a day in Ivanhoe/Mills.

For me, the retail I still want most (in addition to Le Tarjay) is just stuff I don't buy online: a hardware store, a bike store and a pharmacy open later than Publix. An LL Bean or a Brooks Bros would make me ecstatic but I know that is not likely to happen.

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1 minute ago, spenser1058 said:

For me, the retail I still want most (in addition to Le Tarjay) is just stuff I don't buy online: a hardware store, a bike store and a pharmacy open later than Publix. An LL Bean or a Brooks Bros would make me ecstatic but I know that is not likely to happen.

Yeah, I meant to mention hardware but forgot.  A small ACE would be clutch.  In fairness though, most of the downtown residents don't own homes so wouldn't have a massive need.  Yeah, Walgreens not having a pharmacy and not being 24/7 really seems boneheaded, but I hope that'll change in due time.

I don't necessarily consider a bike store to be retail, but that would definitely be nice.  I hated having to go all the way to Winter Park

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1 minute ago, AndyPok1 said:

Yeah, I meant to mention hardware but forgot.  A small ACE would be clutch.  In fairness though, most of the downtown residents don't own homes so wouldn't have a massive need.  Yeah, Walgreens not having a pharmacy and not being 24/7 really seems boneheaded, but I hope that'll change in due time.

I don't necessarily consider a bike store to be retail, but that would definitely be nice.  I hated having to go all the way to Winter Park

Hardware stores are useful for us folks in older apartment buildings and the houses in Thornton Park/Eola Heights.

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1 hour ago, dcluley98 said:

I think I will make a trip to Carrowinds and Funtasticks next summer and maybe hop on the Lynx to stop by DT Charlotte. LOL.  (see, if we just had a light rail circulator that would connect I-Drive/Universal/DT/Airport, we could all say that for Orlando with a straight face). 

Don’t forget the Billy Graham Library and the NASCAR Hall of Fame!

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But before this gets moved to the Coffee House, and probably already mentioned on here, I'd say look at the ingredients in other large cities or real cities:  downtown shopping; downtown museums; train system; lots of residential high rises and office towers, defined neighborhoods, parades, protests, downtown college(s), major hotels, stadium(s), downtown entertainment, a nice PAC, Walgreens, 7-Eleven, downtown park, downtown transit line, and a sense of place. 

Orlando's museums are by FH South, but, that path up Antique Row is nice and contiguous.  Once The Yard opens up, that will add greatly to that element.

We have stadiums.

We have parades.

We have protestors.

We have downtown office towers.

We have our choo choo train.

We have residential high rises and keep on coming!

We have downtown entertainment.

We have the PAC and it's getting more gooder.

We've got Walgreens.

We've got several 7-Elevens; like, a lot, and as cheesy as it sounds, that is a good thing because they feed a niche.  We've got that niche!

We'll have UCF downtown soon; maybe even another 7-Eleven at their downtown campus.

We need shopping.  I once made a list of all the stores downtown; maybe on SkyscraperCity (can I say that here without getting in trouble?).  We do have retail, but I'd love to see some department stores.  I'm afraid because of the times we're in, that may never come to fruition.  I think we need a lot more residential; more than we realize...

We have a downtown park(s).

We have LYMMO Line.

 

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I think we are pretty close. It’ll just take some time. If/once the following gets built, we’re right there:

- residential living like Zoi House, X Orlando and much more

- UCF/Valencia campus

- Magic Entertainment Center

- Dr. Philips PAC finishing

- Green District 

- the completion of I-4

- Under-I park

- Brightline with connection to Sunrail

- Some kind of market at Church Street Station (from the survey)

As we can see, there are a lot of projects underway in Orlando. Many cities can’t say that. But we are trying to become more “real,” that much is obvious. But Rome wasn’t built in a day. Check back in 2021 when we’re in our renaissance.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

I think we are pretty close. It’ll just take some time. If/once the following gets built, we’re right there:

- residential living like Zoi House, X Orlando and much more

- UCF/Valencia campus

- Magic Entertainment Center

- Dr. Philips PAC finishing

- Green District 

- the completion of I-4

- Under-I park

- Brightline with connection to Sunrail

- Some kind of market at Church Street Station (from the survey)

As we can see, there are a lot of projects underway in Orlando. Many cities can’t say that. But we are trying to become more “real,” that much is obvious. But Rome wasn’t built in a day. Check back in 2021 when we’re in our renaissance.

 

 

Offhand, I’d guess that every item on this impressive list will be built and be completed, or nearly so by 2021.

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There are a bunch of things I’m surely forgetting, but let me include elements of downtown currently under construction or contract, such as the new ballet center being built, the rest of Creative Village and the adjoining park(s), the connection of multiple bike trails; and slightly pie-in-the-sky stuff that haven’t been shut down yet, like Vertical Medical City and Packing District. Bottom line, many cities can’t lay claim to the boom we’re currently experiencing. The ones that can are either “real” cities like Philly, NY, Chicago, Seattle, Boston, SF, etc, or cities that are rapidly improving and becoming well-known because of it, like Columbus, Austin, Tampa, Charlotte, Nashville, etc. Both lists are great places to be on. We could easily be on a list that houses Oakland, St. Louis, Cleveland, Bridgeport, etc.

But Orlando isn’t declining, it’s on a fast track to progress, and writers from the LA Times (https://www.latimes.com/travel/la-trw-sns-trvmain1-wk3-story.html), NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/01/travel/what-to-do-36-hours-in-orlando-florida.html), Thrillist (https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/city-of-orlando-development-disney-world-vacations), Chicago Tribune (https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/travel/ct-trav-best-food-orlando-0429-story.html), and a whole other host of news outlets have noticed and reported on it. And these were all written in the last year or so! Imagine in 2021 when our downtown looks and is completely revamped. 

Not sure why we have this inferiority complex when this simple truth can’t be denied: despite all our challenges with identity, tourists, low wages, and traffic, not to mention having a comparatively late start, Orlando is WELL on its way to becoming one of the next great, real American cities.

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It’s amazing to me that some folks assume we can just undo 143 years of history, uproot tens of billions of dollars in infrastructure as if this were just a Sim City model and turn everything that gives us a sense of place upside down to meet some preconceived notion of what a city is supposed to be.

That, btw, is exactly the opposite of what I was taught as an Urban Econ major. It’s like one of the alternative universes on an episode of Star Trek.

Orlando exists as it does because of its location, its climate, the applicable technologies and modes of transportation that existed when it began to grow, the opportunities that occurred by design and by happenstance and the prevailing state and federal rules for development as it came to fruition. We were also affected by communities in the state competing for scarce resources.

There is no “best” model, just the one that works most effectively to provide the greatest quality of life for the most people. In the US, people choose with their feet. If a city doesn’t meet the needs of folks, it doesn’t grow. Given we are growing faster than all but two or three areas our size, we must be doing something right. You’d never know that from reading the posts in here recently. From a review of the posts here, it would be easy to get the idea we’re living in a Bruce Springsteen song.

If I found Orlando as disagreeable as some here apparently do, I’d move. In fact, I came back specifically because I found the very qualities I sought in an urban lifestyle (I abhor the suburbs personally) were either here or proposed. It’s a decision I haven’t regretted.

 

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