How close are we to being a "real" city?

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

 But you still can't go shopping on Orange Avenue. 

That’s true but that’s a phenomenon which isn’t unique to us. Macy’s has closed or seriously downsized several flagship stores like the former Dayton’s on Nicolette Mall in downtown Minneapolis (the street where MTM threw her hat in the air) and the former Burdines in downtown Miami.

The Maas Brothers in downtown Tampa, the May-Cohens in downtown Jacksonville, the Cain-Sloan, Castner Knott and Harvey’s in downtown Nashville, all gone. Rich’s and Davisons in downtown Atlanta, history.

Downtowns that survived the ‘70’s retail apocalypse like Indianapolis and Cincinnati are now losing their anchors as well. Even the New York Times has been regularly covering the disappearance of more and more retail in Manhattan of all places.

So that’s a problem common to cities across the country. I’ve written elsewhere that the Dyer administration failed to find alternatives but we are now seeing signs of rebirth in the South Eola corridor. The task is now to encourage that to continue. With new residents arriving downtown every day, that should be doable.

[Dale]

You used to be able to shop on Orange Ave. As late as the 90’s it was a vibrant stretch. There were even one or two shopping arcades.

 

[jgardnerucf]

...scrolling the UP posts and great rebuttals...craves a pattymelt from McCrory's...

[JFW657]

Doable, but not done. 

Hence, we have "a ways to go".

Considering that the nearest "real city" to us is Miami, I think that a stroll around downtown Miami's CBD would be a good way to draw a comparison as to what kinds of retail we should be striving for.

Admittedly, downtown Miami is no retail Mecca and leaves a bit to be desired, but consider the difference between what they have vs what we have in terms of downtown retail and other walk-in businesses.

[spenser1058]

In the case of Miami, two differences come to mind:

(1) A lot has been written in places like The NY Times and elsewhere that the boom in downtown Miami has been fueled by folks from Latin America who are predisposed to urban environments leading to more purchases of downtown condos (our foreign investors generally buy houses in subdivisions near the attractions areas). More folks in condos fuel more business in downtown retail (particularly if that’s also how they shopped in the cities they came from.)

(2) I also wonder how much downtown retail here has been impeded by the relative closeness of Mills/50 - Colonialtown and SoDo. The city gave over a million dollars to reinvent Colonial Plaza as a power center and did nothing (although we begged) to encourage relocation closer to downtown as OFS reached the end of its productive life. That explains a lot of the chains (Target will have to think twice about building a store downtown when there are locations nearby at both SoDo and Maguire).

Many of the mom-and-pop retailers in the great pics you posted can be found in the Little Saigon area of Mills/50.

From that perspective, one of our greatest downtown strengths - close-in neighborhoods- is also a weakness when it comes to retail.

[orlandouprise]

DT Miami just looks dirty...was thinking more along the lines of Midtown Atl/ Buckhead retail ...LOL

Even Atlantic Station retail...

[JFW657]

22 minutes ago, orlandouprise said:

DT Miami just looks dirty...was thinking more along the lines of Midtown Atl/ Buckhead retail ...LOL

Even Atlantic Station retail...

Yes, it does look kinda ratty, but there are a lot of stores, shops and dining. I just chose Miami because it's the closest really big city to Orlando.

[prahaboheme]

7 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

In the case of Miami, two differences come to mind:

(1) A lot has been written in places like The NY Times and elsewhere that the boom in downtown Miami has been fueled by folks from Latin America who are predisposed to urban environments leading to more purchases of downtown condos (our foreign investors generally buy houses in subdivisions near the attractions areas). More folks in condos fuel more business in downtown retail (particularly if that’s also how they shopped in the cities they came from.)

(2) I also wonder how much downtown retail here has been impeded by the relative closeness of Mills/50 - Colonialtown and SoDo. The city gave over a million dollars to reinvent Colonial Plaza as a power center and did nothing (although we begged) to encourage relocation closer to downtown as OFS reached the end of its productive life. That explains a lot of the chains (Target will have to think twice about building a store downtown when there are locations nearby at both SoDo and Maguire).

Many of the mom-and-pop retailers in the great pics you posted can be found in the Little Saigon area of Mills/50.

From that perspective, one of our greatest downtown strengths - close-in neighborhoods- is also a weakness when it comes to retail.

Let’s not forget the giant elephant in the room. When the major company in your metro area does everything it can do to pull people away from the city’s downtown, things will happen like the failure of church street.  Orlando may actually be very unique to this discussion because most corporate giants tend to have a downtown presence.

I was criticized recently for opining that Disney has taken more than its given to this area in the context of why I don’t believe it’s economically wise to do a rail stop on their property over I-drive.

 

[JFW657]

49 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Let’s not forget the giant elephant in the room. When the major company in your metro area does everything it can do to pull people away from the city’s downtown, things will happen like the failure of church street.  Orlando may actually be very unique to this discussion because most corporate giants tend to have a downtown presence.

I was criticized recently for opining that Disney has taken more than its given to this area in the context of why I don’t believe it’s economically wise to do a rail stop on their property over I-drive.

The ol' proverbial double edged sword.

[Dale]

11 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

DT Miami just looks dirty...was thinking more along the lines of Midtown Atl/ Buckhead retail ...LOL

Even Atlantic Station retail...

Billions of dollars planned or underway in DT Miami including copious streerscaping and a ‘High Street’ featuring 400k of retail. 

In just a very few years, modest-income earners wanting to live DT will yearn for the days when it was ratty and dirty.

[Uncommon]

Miami is an incredible world city. Downtown Miami is in another stratosphere by itself. Orlando should aim several levels lower if ever trying emulate anything. Not an apt or fair comparison for Orlando to shoot for in my opinion.

[Dale]

14 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Miami is an incredible world city. Downtown Miami is in another stratosphere by itself. Orlando should aim several levels lower if ever trying emulate anything. Not an apt or fair comparison for Orlando to shoot for in my opinion.

Incremental improvements will be just fine for Orlando. I recently visited the urbanist’s wet dream, Vancouver. It’s main thoroughfare, equivalent to Orange Ave, is an admixture of opulence and seediness. During office hours, fairly well-dressed young men were sleeping on the streets. Probably should have rousted one and asked, “What ? Are you telling me you can’t afford $3,000 a month for a studio ? Get a job!”

[Uncommon]

34 minutes ago, Dale said:

Incremental improvements will be just fine for Orlando. I recently visited the urbanist’s wet dream, Vancouver. It’s main thoroughfare, equivalent to Orange Ave, is an admixture of opulence and seediness. During office hours, fairly well-dressed young men were sleeping on the streets. Probably should have rousted one and asked, “What ? Are you telling me you can’t afford $3,000 a month for a studio ? Get a job!”

Cities like that in my opinion provide a cautionary tale for uncontrolled growth, spending, and construction. Current “it” and “real” cities like San Francisco or Vancouver or even New York (and soon Miami) are only wet dreams to a small and select population, but to 95% of the world, they’re unlivable at best. I would NEVER want Orlando to become a megacity in that range, replete with incessant homelessness, hourly gridlocks, pollution, graffiti and litter, alarmingly high costs of living, and swaths of people everywhere night and day. That’s not for me. If it was, I’d move down to Miami or out to LA. I’m quite content being a mid-major up-and-coming city with good quality of life, great amenities, decent cost of living, and nice weather. I’d just like a few 600 footers downtown, some cool walkable areas, usable mass transit, and an NFL team. Is that really too much to ask?

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, Uncommon said:

Miami is an incredible world city. Downtown Miami is in another stratosphere by itself. Orlando should aim several levels lower if ever trying emulate anything. Not an apt or fair comparison for Orlando to shoot for in my opinion.

My point was that, in the context of the question posed by the thread title, block after block of retail is a significant part of what defines a "real city". The pics of Miami were just an example of what a "real city" looks like, and how, by comparison, Orlando still falls well short. 

Oddly enough, 20 or 30 years ago, we actually had a fair amount of retail. Seems like the more people move downtown, the less the area is able to attract or support retail.

[Dale]

2 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Cities like that in my opinion provide a cautionary tale for uncontrolled growth, spending, and construction. Current “it” and “real” cities like San Francisco or Vancouver or even New York (and soon Miami) are only wet dreams to a small and select population, but to 95% of the world, they’re unlivable at best. I would NEVER want Orlando to become a megacity in that range, replete with incessant homelessness, hourly gridlocks, pollution, graffiti and litter, alarmingly high costs of living, and swaths of people everywhere night and day. That’s not for me. If it was, I’d move down to Miami or out to LA. I’m quite content being a mid-major up-and-coming city with good quality of life, great amenities, decent cost of living, and nice weather. I’d just like a few 600 footers downtown, some cool walkable areas, usable mass transit, and an NFL team. Is that really too much to ask?

It’s also a cautionary tale for “Our city should adopt the practices of [insert darling cities here].”

[JFW657]

2 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Cities like that in my opinion provide a cautionary tale for uncontrolled growth, spending, and construction. Current “it” and “real” cities like San Francisco or Vancouver or even New York (and soon Miami) are only wet dreams to a small and select population, but to 95% of the world, they’re unlivable at best. I would NEVER want Orlando to become a megacity in that range, replete with incessant homelessness, hourly gridlocks, pollution, graffiti and litter, alarmingly high costs of living, and swaths of people everywhere night and day. That’s not for me. If it was, I’d move down to Miami or out to LA. I’m quite content being a mid-major up-and-coming city with good quality of life, great amenities, decent cost of living, and nice weather. I’d just like a few 600 footers downtown, some cool walkable areas, usable mass transit, and an NFL team. Is that really too much to ask?

I think most of us agree with that, or at least the bolded part, but re: the Miami comparison, I was only referring to the downtown retail.

Heck, I'm not even hoping for 600' skyscrapers. Two or three in the 450' range would be more than fine with me.

[spenser1058]

I have to say a word about Disney’s effect on CSS. While Michael Eisner (and Frank Wells at that point) did come up with the PI concept (which it’s important to note in the end was dismantled just like CSS), there are several things to note about other issues that did Rosie and Co. in:

• First, it was never a monolithic targeting of CSS. The Mouse also added projects designed to keep guests from Sea World, Busch Gardens, Cypress Gardens, KSC and the beach.

• The overpriced pricing structure of CSS was unsustainable over the long-term. There’s a reason the Rosie O’Gradys concept ultimately failed not only in Orlando but also in downtown Pensacola and downtown Las Vegas (and Bob Snow’s subsequent ventures had the same lack of success) - other overpriced drinking ventures from the era such as Underground Atlanta also failed;

• It’s an open question whether over the long-term (I’ll defer to our party expert Andy on this), the many bars and clubs that sprouted along Orange Avenue (and even Church St.) and targeted a more organic local audience haven’ t replaced both the monetary and people-attracting effects of CSS on downtown;

• It wasn’t only PI and CityWalk that did in CSS. Bob Snow had leveraged his contacts with the Navy (remember, he was from Pensacola) to ensure a steady stream of sailors to the complex. That inflow was going to end with the closure of NTC after Bill McCollum “saved our Navy base” (not);**

• Bob Snow’s entrepreneurial spirit, which no doubt made CSS interesting for as long as it was, evaporated when the complex was sold to a Baltimore utility (folks who run utilities being known as “wild and crazy guys” - not!)

• The festival marketplace components added at the end of the CSS run (both Snow’s Exchange and Lincoln’s Market) had notably brief runs as “downtown saviors” across the country. Glenda Hood’s Republican vision notwithstanding, suburban projects dropped into organic urban settings are, in the end, as incompatible as any Portman project.

Even if Wall St had never forced the Eisner era on the operations of Walt Disney Productions as it did in 1984, there’s every reason to believe Church Street Station’s demise would likely have happened anyway.

Many of us would argue that what replaced it throughout a downtown geared more to locals than bused-in tourists was a better fit anyway.

** A couple of notes on that: proximity to NTC probably had at least as much (if not more) to do with the location of CSS in the first place. Had Snow been simply trying to leverage WDW crowds it would have made more sense to build in the attractions area (a la Old Town);

It’s hard to overstate the importance the hordes of sailors passing through NTC had on certain aspects of Orlando. Not only were they the cash cow of Rosie’s, they also drove the economy of Orlando Fashion Square and that segment of E. Colonial Drive. It’s no accident that the fortunes of the area rapidly declined with the closure of NTC.

[Xander]

I'll say this much- i've been in the metro Orlando area since 1992. I can't even compare what it is now to what it was then, because it's grown by such a steady and healthy amount since then. I know things haven't happened at the pace in which we'd all like, but the downtown area, as well as Uptown, the CBD and surrounding areas have all come along so nicely. I think there's a healthy aspect in comparing to other cities, but what we have here is an increasingly sustainable city, growing friendlier to pedestrian traffic and slowly but surely expanding retail to meet the needs of living in a downtown urban core. I think it's finally become a realized need as well to continue to develop mass transit. Lymmo has expanded, the talk of extending SunRail to MCO and out to possibly UCF(which will likely take a decade)is a direct result of finally understanding the need for it, something I honestly didn't think i'd see in Central Florida, let alone downtown. 

  Orlando is already a "real" city. It just has to remember to continue being it's own city instead of trying to emulate everyone else, which it absolutely can do with a little ingenuity. No offense to the person who posed the original question, but we need to worry less about what we're not and focus more on what we already are, and want to be. The last 25 years in Orlando have brought gradual, but immense change here. I think we're on a good path.

[AndyPok1]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

• It’s an open question whether over the long-term (I’ll defer to our party expert Andy on this), the many bars and clubs that sprouted along Orange Avenue (and even Church St.) and targeted a more organic local audience haven’ t replaced both the monetary and people-attracting effects of CSS on downtown;

This.  It's the equivalent of asking a New Yorker to get drinks in Times square.  Yeah, we'll do Citywalk for a friend's bday once a year, drink around the world at Epcot once or twice, maybe a pub crawl on I-Drive every other year.  But those are exceptions.  You'll find us at Lizzys or OCB or The Lodge more often.  But equally as likely to be up the other end of Orange at Hammered Lamb / Lucky Lure.  The curse of interesting nearby neighborhoods as you say.

[spenser1058]

6 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

This.  It's the equivalent of asking a New Yorker to get drinks in Times square.  Yeah, we'll do Citywalk for a friend's bday once a year, drink around the world at Epcot once or twice, maybe a pub crawl on I-Drive every other year.  But those are exceptions.  You'll find us at Lizzys or OCB or The Lodge more often.  But equally as likely to be up the other end of Orange at Hammered Lamb / Lucky Lure.  The curse of interesting nearby neighborhoods as you say.

“The curse of interesting nearby neighborhoods.” It’s important to note that in the heyday of CSS, our Main Street districts simply  didn’t exist and were wide spots in the road starting to decline.

The exciting bar of the time was the Why Not Lounge up in Altamonte adjoining a Holiday Inn. 

Downtown was long since past its prime (the year Rosie’s opened, the Sears on Orange Avenue closed and Ivey’s wouldn’t be far behind). Because all the excitement was the new Fashion Square Mall and Sea World opening (not to mention awaiting the first run on Space Mountain), nobody gave much thought to downtown.

Mayor Carl Langford didn’t see much reason to do anything different and showed up on “60 Minutes” to declare Orlando a “depressed area” to snag some federal funds.

In that era, CSS seemed like a great idea. Little did we know that, just six years later, a new mayor told us our roots downtown could be restored. The idea of saving neighborhoods took hold and a sense of authenticity became the rallying cry instead of an ersatz Victorian tourist mecca that hardly represented the true past of Church St.

At the time, I wasn’t much impressed and left to find “real” cities. By 1983, I was delighted to discover I could come back to my hometown and work with lots of folks to recover what was real (without the quotation marks) about Orlando. 

Like Xavier, I kind of like what we came up with and look forward to even more.

 

 

[orlandouprise]

I think we are on our way. Not as fast as I would like...but we are slowly chugging along.  Orlando should be itself, unique by all means, but it can look to a city like Austin for ideas. A great food hall just opened there. The 2nd St. district is full of shops +restaurants. Tech firms are all over. I can definitely see Orlando replicating this with-in 10-15 years. Under I-4 park, The Magic Ent. complex, UCF, a food hall, etc will make a HUGE difference.

[JFW657]

IMO, they need to return The Exchange to something more closely resembling what it was originally, but with less emphasis on touristy junk and more emphasis on retail that caters to local tastes, dining and entertainment.

[codypet]

18 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

This.  It's the equivalent of asking a New Yorker to get drinks in Times square.  Yeah, we'll do Citywalk for a friend's bday once a year, drink around the world at Epcot once or twice, maybe a pub crawl on I-Drive every other year.  But those are exceptions.  You'll find us at Lizzys or OCB or The Lodge more often.  But equally as likely to be up the other end of Orange at Hammered Lamb / Lucky Lure.  The curse of interesting nearby neighborhoods as you say.

Can confirm Andy and I have had many a drinks at the Lodge.

[Dale]

13 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

I think we are on our way. Not as fast as I would like...but we are slowly chugging along.  Orlando should be itself, unique by all means, but it can look to a city like Austin for ideas. A great food hall just opened there. The 2nd St. district is full of shops +restaurants. Tech firms are all over. I can definitely see Orlando replicating this with-in 10-15 years. Under I-4 park, The Magic Ent. complex, UCF, a food hall, etc will make a HUGE difference.

Creative Village may do for Orlando what Water Street Tampa is doing for that downtown, albeit on a more modest scale.

[jgardnerucf]

4 hours ago, codypet said:

Can confirm Andy and I have had many a drinks at the Lodge.

Best happy hour downtown!