Headwaters Resort & Casino (Proposed)

[Young75]

On 10/26/2019 at 9:19 AM, chris722 said:

People are excited about it.  That effort to force a referendum failed, so it is what it is.

I agree that Norfolk, Portsmouth, Newport News, and Hampton are legit cities.  People always want to compare Norfolk to Richmond and state that Richmond is more of a city than Norfolk.  I can see the arguments both ways.  I think that Norfolk is urban for this region, but maybe not so much for other regions, and definitely not by West Coast or East Coast standards.  But I've been in plenty of Midwestern cities with density similar or less than Norfolk, and it is not a deal breaker for me.  

You're right about Midwestern cities with casinos and how those economies are different.  For one Cleveland and Detroit aren't defined by tourism.  For another they're larger cities.  Fair enough.  

The sad part about it is....look up pictures of Norfolk from the 1940s.. that’s the real Norfolk. It just needs to get back to its roots. There are small remnants of “old urban” and I can see your point. Those places on the coasts you referenced are more alive and that’s what I feel like it should be. We love our little city NORFOLK lol “Thout Shalt Grow”

[virginia pe]

On 10/30/2019 at 4:39 AM, Cjnfkvb said:

If there isnt enough questions answered, shouldn't somone be asking those questions, rather than conplaining, and filling pointlessly redundant petitions.?Does anyone honestly think that city council will reconsider there vote for a small handful of signatures, in a city of many thousands of people?

They have been asking the questions.  Here are some of the questions:

• What will the economic impact be on current downtown restaurants, hotels and entertainment establishments?  People visiting the casino are not likely to leave the casino to visit other downtown restaurants or hotels.
• The casino will pay no taxes on meals/beverages, spa services, lodging or entertainment, only on the net gaming receipts. Does this give the casino an unfair advantage over other restaurants and hotels?
• The city is funding an economic impact study to consider the additional taxes from a new downtown arena to replace Scope. What negative impact will the casino have on a future arena?  Could it kill the chance of a new arena?
• The city hopes to attract $1 Billion in investment in the St. Paul’s Quadrant?  How will the casino impact the development of St. Paul’s Quadrant? 
• What does Norfolk State think about having a casino less than a mile from its campus?
• Many studies have shown that property values of houses in proximity to casinos decline as a result of a casino opening.  Norfolk is investing $112 million in the Ohio Creek Basin to create the “coastal community of the future”. How will the casino affect Chesterfield Heights?
• Studies show that there is an increase in crime when casinos enter a neighborhood.  It is likely that there will be a significant cost to police, fire and emergency services. What is this cost?
• Why has a risk assessment not been completed to understand the increased costs of public safety as a result of this casino?
• Has Norfolk’s public safety leadership weighed in on the effects of a casino on potential increase in public safety costs?

No, these are not my questions.  This is a recap of some of the questions Councilwoman Andria McClellan posted on Facebook back in September.  Her FB post was copied onto this site on September 22 .

[BeagleAccountant]

7 hours ago, virginia pe said:

They have been asking the questions.  Here are some of the questions:

• What will the economic impact be on current downtown restaurants, hotels and entertainment establishments?  People visiting the casino are not likely to leave the casino to visit other downtown restaurants or hotels.
• The casino will pay no taxes on meals/beverages, spa services, lodging or entertainment, only on the net gaming receipts. Does this give the casino an unfair advantage over other restaurants and hotels?
• The city is funding an economic impact study to consider the additional taxes from a new downtown arena to replace Scope. What negative impact will the casino have on a future arena?  Could it kill the chance of a new arena?
• The city hopes to attract $1 Billion in investment in the St. Paul’s Quadrant?  How will the casino impact the development of St. Paul’s Quadrant? 
• What does Norfolk State think about having a casino less than a mile from its campus?
• Many studies have shown that property values of houses in proximity to casinos decline as a result of a casino opening.  Norfolk is investing $112 million in the Ohio Creek Basin to create the “coastal community of the future”. How will the casino affect Chesterfield Heights?
• Studies show that there is an increase in crime when casinos enter a neighborhood.  It is likely that there will be a significant cost to police, fire and emergency services. What is this cost?
• Why has a risk assessment not been completed to understand the increased costs of public safety as a result of this casino?
• Has Norfolk’s public safety leadership weighed in on the effects of a casino on potential increase in public safety costs?

No, these are not my questions.  This is a recap of some of the questions Councilwoman Andria McClellan posted on Facebook back in September.  Her FB post was copied onto this site on September 22 .

I can't answer all of those, but we had Jay Jones at a recent civic league meeting and he said Norfolk State is excited. They are partnering with the casino to start a new hospitality major.

[Qdeathstar]

When i go to the casino in DC i stay at at hotel in dc and eat at places other than the casino because the casinos prices are insane...like $700/nt. I think it is fair to say people coming to norfolk to visit the casino will spend money in norfolk.  The questions are asked upon baseless assumptions.

 

Also, it seems dumb to focus on what negative impact (as some of these questions ask) the important question is what is the net impact. I’m not sure how the casino would affect plans for the scope, except that it would be another venue the scope would have to compete with.... but i’m not sure a theatre like is found in most casinos really competes with the Scope.. it is more likely to compete with the Norva....

Edited November 3, 2019 by Qdeathstar

[BFG]

I think the theater would compete more with the Sandler Center. They seem to get a lot of shows that are too small for Chrysler Hall. I wonder if there is room to put the new arena on that site, the way MGM does with its Garden Arena in Vegas.
 

I think Mohegan Sun in Connecticut does the same thing, although that arena isn’t much larger than The Ted. 

[BFG]

The no casino/let’s get more info people are at the voting precincts with petitions. I didn’t see any when I voted but I saw stuff on Facebook.
Even with higher than usual engagement this year and all eyes on VA, I don’t see them doing much better this time around. I’d think people will see that they failed the first time. 

[vdogg]

I try not to inject politics into this forum, but sometimes it's inextricably linked to major projects. There was support on both sides of the aisle for doing casinos in some form last year, but there was still some resistance in the house. The passage of the final casino bill is now far more likely with the results of last night. It's basically a guarantee. The biggest thing standing in the way of the casino effort right now is the local effort to stop the deal with the Pamunkey. I think that we might actually get this project off the ground eventually, seeing now that the state may come through before the federal portion does (and the results of the election last night also bode well for for any referendum that may appear on the ballot).

[BFG]

Without getting super political, I think a lot of projects that have been in the works for a few years will now happen. Transportation, marijuana, casinos. And I think it will all have a positive effect on businesses coming to the state. The next few years could be very interesting. 

[BFG]

https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-norfolk-second-casino-petition-20191107-tagxp7kenjhl5bv7kqbuihphaq-story.html

No surprise, but they have enough names on the petition to force council to vote again. I'm sick of these people.

 

Bull said, per his reading of the city charter, the City Council will be presented with the petitions at its next meeting Nov. 26 and will have 30 days from that point to schedule public hearings and a vote on whether to pass the ordinance undoing the original decision.

Since the charter requires “hearings," but doesn’t specify how many, Bull said he assumed there would be at least two.

If the council reaffirms its approval of the deal, petitioners would have longer than the first group — nine months instead of 30 days — to gather the 4,000 signatures to force a voter referendum.

Glass said she’s not expecting a change of heart from the council, which passed the initial land deal over the protests of citizens and McClellan.

“We hope we won’t, but we expect to be back on the ground with another petition next year,” Glass said.

 

[HRVA]

After all this settles, the charter needs to be amended. I respect the intent behind this section but a few thousand people in a city of over 200k shouldn’t be able to hold up anything the City Council approves because they are sore losers. This is a bad look for Norfolk and could threaten much more than just the casino. Prospective businesses are known to walk away when they see this kind of stuff happening with other proposals. 

[Qdeathstar]

3 hours ago, 23320 said:

After all this settles, the charter needs to be amended. I respect the intent behind this section but a few thousand people in a city of over 200k shouldn’t be able to hold up anything the City Council approves because they are sore losers. This is a bad look for Norfolk and could threaten much more than just the casino. Prospective businesses are known to walk away when they see this kind of stuff happening with other proposals. 

Just doing the referendum to begin with might have been a better option. Now we are going be dealing with this uncertainty for years. They have nine months after norfolk council votes, which might take a month or more, so that puts us at 10-11 months which might make it too late to put it on next years ballot which may push the referendum to the following year which is  two year delay.  Which should put is right in the middle of a cyclical recession.

 

I don’t doubt with nine months of whining they can scrounge together 4000 signatures...

[vdogg]

11 hours ago, Qdeathstar said:

Just doing the referendum to begin with might have been a better option. Now we are going be dealing with this uncertainty for years. They have nine months after norfolk council votes, which might take a month or more, so that puts us at 10-11 months which might make it too late to put it on next years ballot which may push the referendum to the following year which is  two year delay.  Which should put is right in the middle of a cyclical recession.

 

I don’t doubt with nine months of whining they can scrounge together 4000 signatures...

There is already a referendum scheduled, by law, for November 2020. All this effort is pointless. I can’t for the life of me figure out what the h@ll these folks are trying to accomplish.

[BFG]

Expert states that the casino would need nearby developments like restaurants, shops, and entertainment, to help the casino succeed. Something we've said a few times on this forum as well.

https://www.pilotonline.com/business/vp-nw-norfolk-casino-expert-20191116-3lq34id2zbc6lnkcz5nmcrmaqa-story.html

[Norva757]

That neighborhood across the tracks could be prime for those things

[Willy18]

"Alexander did say the Pamunkey Indian Casino that had been billed at $700 million would likely now be more around $200 million. Instead of 3,500 jobs, Alexander said to expect around 1,000."

https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/despite-risks-of-developing-2-casinos-norfolk-and-portsmouth-leaders-still-want-individual-projects/amp/1

 

 

[baobabs727]

I saw that.  So disappointing, not surprising, not explained in full that I know of?? I also saw him dodge questions repeatedly re: partnering with Portsmouth, as Tommy Norment says is likely the best plan....for that gaming study report suggests they would compete pretty hard with each other .

[Willy18]

This metro just continues to prove why we are where we are when compared to others our size. So disappointing and typical. Before all said and done it will be a 2 story Rosie's with an attached Super 8. 

This economy is freakin booming...and we get projects that are stalled, downsized and nothing new thats substantial. 

[Norva757]

This is the reason that I'm giving up on this area and want to move to another state

[wrldcoupe4]

It’s probably a phased project. First phase is $200M. That’s still pretty great. 

[vdogg]

A $200 million project, while good, is not unheard of in this area. That's a pretty average sized major project for us, on par with Town Center, City Center, etc. We really needed to hit this one out of the park, and it appears yet again that things are getting scaled and/or watered down...

[Arctic_Tern]

On 10/8/2019 at 9:43 AM, Arctic_Tern said:

I'm feeling a bit better about the project now that I've found this site: https://www.norfolk.gov/4661/Resort-Casino

Have any of y'all seen it before? I don't want to be obstinate, but I hadn't seen it before and it was pretty hard to find (had to search "norfolk.gov casino" in google, "norfolk casino" and similar searches wouldn't pull it up). Was it distributed very much? 

This part still worries me, from the Q/A: 

Does the agreement with the city require the reported $700 million investment?

The total investment will be based on the scope of the final project.   At a minimum the tribe will construct a project that includes 750 electronic gaming machines, 25 gaming tables, 150 hotel guest rooms (if Class III gaming is approved), and parking.

I've seen this city bait-and-switched on too many times to get too caught up in the shiny $700MM promises and renderings and whatnot. I really hope they actually put good money into this thing and don't just meet the minimum requirements. And the "if Class III gaming is approved" is interesting. What if it isn't approved? What parts of the deal fall through if that happens?

Welp.

This is why I was worried with how low the minimum requirements were. Instead of creating a contract to ensure we get the money put into it needed, we're ceding land from the city forever for much much less than the revolutionary product we were promised.

[Cjnfkvb]

If somone has good photoshop skills, im curious to know what the downtown skyline would look like if every proposed project got built, and built to there original proposal. I bet it would be epic.

[BFG]

Earlier this year, I put together a mockup including Gateway Tower, the casino, and the African History Museum. 

I'm still looking forward to the casino, but I'm thinking it'll be closer to a Maryland Live! concept than the tower we have...a fairly non-descript building...the last picture is the new ML! hotel rendering. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the hotel we end up with will look more like a Hampton Inn, although I hope it maintains the all-glass exterior.

[Norva757]

We waste so much money not doing anything and we wonder why nothing ever gets built

 

Another meeting about the sale of the land and casino

[vdogg]

2 hours ago, Norva757 said:

We waste so much money not doing anything and we wonder why nothing ever gets built

 

Another meeting about the sale of the land and casino

This is the meeting that was required after the people got the signatures for that petition. The city's hands are tied in this case.