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Headwaters Resort & Casino (Proposed)


Norf Native

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The following is a post from Councilwoman McClellan regarding the casino agreement being voted on Tuesday. More than being for or against, she wants to slow down the process to gather more information and public input. I have to agree with her as I don’t see the need to rush this. She shares that if the agreement is approved then the land trust application  will be filed and cannot be taken back. So even if they go the commercial route to get it open quicker, it would become a tribal casino if the land trust is approved. Waiting to see what happens with commercial gaming won’t take that long in the scheme of things and that route seems more likely to generate the most revenue for the city and state. 

 

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What? Um I don't think that's what she's saying at all. Did you read her entire post? Sounds like she's already made up her mind to me.  She was also against the Cordish companies developing any skyscrapers downtown.  She was also against the new hotel on N. Hampton Blvd. because they were going to sacrifice the addition of about 25 extra trees.   She was also against light rail expansion to Old Dominion because of flooding and also because, as she told our civic league, "all the young people are taking Uber's now. None of my kids friends are getting driver's licenses!"  Yes, so says the multi millionaire  Who can afford to foot her kids $40 round trip Uber bill to town center!

I think she believes that humans and their so-called capitalistic economic development interests are literally ruining our world. Flooding! The sky is falling...er...the floor is rising. Pick your poison. 

Time to move to a place with no  progress-killing, money-siphoning crisis/catastrophe-based pseudo religion and its nanny-state enforcers/worshippers.  With like-minded leaders in power with her, and other city councils changing to mirror the Virginia Beach do-nothing-say-no-to-everything council, this area will  continue to stagnate and never prosper. Don't doubt me. 

Edited by baobabs727
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Nothing is being rushed. Things progress at an absolutely glacial pace in this area, so much so that when a development dares to actually move at normal speed people are like “OMG, slow down!”. It’s absolutely ridiculous. We’ve been talking about this thing for a year now, it’s been covered relentlessly in all news media. There is not a single person in this area that doesn’t know what’s going on. Gambling was not invented yesterday, the issues with casinos are well established. We don’t need another study to tell us what we already know. Just vote on the d@&n thing and move on. If it scares her so much she is free to dissent. Let’s move this process forward.

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By waiting to see what the state does with commercial gaming, the city will have more flexibility with the land long term. A commercial casino will provide the earliest opening date, most sources of revenue, and more control over the long term use of land (if the casino were to ever close). If commercial casinos are not approved then by all means move forward with the tribal designation but I think it would be a mistake to agree to it now when there is a better option potentially available in the near term. 

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If it means finding the more feasible option, I don’t necessarily mind, although I agree things take forever around here. My big fear is that they’ll do the same thing with the arena and let it quietly fade away. 

But if they’re so concerned about crime or addiction, they need to look at other cities’ casinos (Dover, Baltimore, DC) and not just studies. 

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Who is this "Commercial Casino"? I haven't seen ANYTHING that states that multiple casino's were interested in the land if it was approved. That land has sat vacant for many years with very little to show for it. Also Andria is worried about crime around NSU? She should take a ride over there...it's not a utopia that she's painting us right now. What has she and her cohorts done to curb the violent crime and poverty that exists in and around NSU and Chesterfield Heights...just curious. Let's make believe the big bad casino will makes things terrible in that area...it already is. I say vote...if it passes move forward. If the state approves casinos then let the commercial casinos jump on the wagon and build one of their own. Pretty sure if the tribe came to 757Angels for capital her post would read a little different...just sayin. 

Edited by Willy18
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34 minutes ago, Willy18 said:

Who is this "Commercial Casino"? I haven't seen ANYTHING that states that multiple casino's were interested in the land if it was approved. That land has sat vacant for many years with very little to show for it. Also Andria is worried about crime around NSU? She should take a ride over there...it's not a utopia that she's painting us right now. What has she and her cohorts done to curb the violent crime and poverty that exists in and around NSU and Chesterfield Heights...just curious. Let's make believe the big bad casino will makes things terrible in that area...it already is. I say vote...if it passes move forward. If the state approves casinos then let the commercial casinos jump on the wagon and build one of their own. Pretty sure if the tribe came to 757Angels for capital her post would read a little different...just sayin. 

Commercial or tribal - it’s the same billionaire from Tennessee masquerading as an Indian tribe. It’s not a different proposal just two different avenues to get it up and running. 

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I've been going back and forth, but still lean in favor of going forward.

Unfortunately, the Pilot is now taking this latest headline and running with it. That, along with the article I linked over the weekend, could become very dangerous, if it sends the idea that the city has cold feet. I know I said I'm okay with doing this the right way, but I do wonder why all of a sudden there's concerns. Like vdogg said, this proposal didn't just spring up overnight...most of the details have been out there, and it's not like the Commonwealth itself didn't start considering a casino this year.

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On 9/16/2019 at 6:43 PM, BFG said:

Councilwoman McClellan posted that the city seeks the public's input. The response has been 50/50, and then there's the typical "taxpayer dollars" argument and questions about how much the city stands to benefit from the tax revenue. There's also the idea that gambling addiction ruins homes and leads to more crime, or that casinos don't really last, an idea which bugs me.

I'm not saying addiction isn't an issue, and by no means do I want to sound insensitive, but I really think people should be more objective and not treat anecdotes as the norm. I really hope the naysayers don't cause Norfolk to reconsider.

I think the big question here is how much Norfolk really stands to gain from this grand casino.  10-15 years ago, a casino could have brought in a ton of money. Now, outside of Hampton Roads, you can find a casino within 3-4 hours in any other direction. Richmonders only have to drive a couple hours north. Out in Roanoke, they only have to drive to western NC. Myrtle Beach has casino cruises. 

I mean, I guess the Raleigh/Durham market would be a huge target? Hopefully some of the Richmond folks who currently head for National Harbor/Baltimore would head to Norfolk (from center Richmond, it's about the same distance to National Harbor as it is to Harbor Park). But casinos aren't really the attraction they were a decade ago... and certainly not 20 years ago. I think the city should really consider how much they really put into this as well as the other costs like crime, gambling addition, etc.

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Right on time, here comes the pilot with another doom and gloom article magnifying the one dissenting voice on council while barely giving any print to the rest of the council members who support the deal.

https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-norfolk-casino-rushed-vote-20190923-ul5xjn7blfd6za2fxkpxxl32mu-story.html

I look forward to their “woe is me” article a few months from now lamenting the fact that we cannot get anything done in Hampton Roads after their constant negative press has collapsed the deal. Every. Single.Time... Literally every big ticket item proposed for this area and this is what the pilot does. You can set a clock by it. 

Light rail, arena, casino, even scooters. Anything that might bring the slightest change to this area. This process has become tiresome.

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I’m surprised at how even the reaction has been. Most of the people I’ve seen on the Mayor’s page supports it, and reaction on Councilwoman McClellan’s page is mixed. And even she’s not against it. I think this is getting blown out of proportion. 

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https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/norfolk-council-votes-to-move-ahead-with-casino-land-transfer/?fbclid=IwAR1jqC7EkxQoDkGoIZfjZjAnwHfDYqY9Mo1-p8iLnGgY3vCmA89e-o-UeQo

Looks like the minimum payment from the Pamunkey tribe is now $5M a year. That's better than nothing, although I am interested to know how much Norfolk would make if they collected taxes.

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29 minutes ago, BFG said:

https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/norfolk-council-votes-to-move-ahead-with-casino-land-transfer/?fbclid=IwAR1jqC7EkxQoDkGoIZfjZjAnwHfDYqY9Mo1-p8iLnGgY3vCmA89e-o-UeQo

Looks like the minimum payment from the Pamunkey tribe is now $5M a year. That's better than nothing, although I am interested to know how much Norfolk would make if they collected taxes.

$33 million is the last I heard, and that $5 million is a floor. The better the casino does the more they pay.

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That makes this whole situation even more confusing. I know there's the chance the casino could flop, but I see that being a longshot, provided there's not that much competition locally. But I also don't see them pulling more than $33M from tax revenue.

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Norfolk City Council approves casino land deal - Virginian-Pilot

The article mentions that one of the speakers intends to begin a referendum petition. Those are very difficult to get on the ballot & are only advisory if passed but obviously has worked in the past (light rail). 

“The city and tribe have touted the high-end estimates of what the casino complex could be: a $700 million project that features as many as 4,000 slots and 225 table games with a 500-room hotel. 

At a minimum, any casino would have to include at least 750 slots and 25 table games, with a hotel as small as 150 rooms.”

That is a pretty wide range. I am curious how a casino in Portsmouth would impact the final product. Hopefully they deliver what has been pitched.

Also, the Pilot is still reporting the $3 million floor. I don’t think it’ll matter whether it’s $3 or $5 million but hopefully that gets clarified. 

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5 minutes ago, BFG said:

That makes this whole situation even more confusing. I know there's the chance the casino could flop, but I see that being a longshot, provided there's not that much competition locally. But I also don't see them pulling more than $33M from tax revenue.

$33 million would be $825 million in net revenue. All 6 Maryland casinos generated $1.75 billion in 2018 & MGM did $705 million. I wouldn’t expect this casino to outperform MGM so $33 million would be high - especially if there’s competition in the local market. 

Latest Maryland casino data shows continued growth, MGM's huge impact and how slots remain king - Baltimore Sun

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26 minutes ago, 23320 said:

$33 million would be $825 million in net revenue. All 6 Maryland casinos generated $1.75 billion in 2018 & MGM did $705 million. I wouldn’t expect this casino to outperform MGM so $33 million would be high - especially if there’s competition in the local market. 

Latest Maryland casino data shows continued growth, MGM's huge impact and how slots remain king - Baltimore Sun

1.75 billion/6 is just under 300M. I'll round down to 250M...at 4%, that's $10M a year going back to the city. I have a hard time believing Norfolk would turn that down.

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Looked into the requirements for the referendum petition that is being discussed and it is a different process than how the light rail referendum was done. The petitioners have 30 days to collect 4,100 signatures (based on 25% of the turnout for the last municipal election). Council will then have the opportunity to reconsider the ordinance & if they do not then it get on a ballot for voters to decide. They don’t  have enough time to get it on November’s ballot so it seems likely, based on the timing requirements, that there could be a special election early next year with just a repeal of the vote last night. 

Summary of the time requirements:

-30 days following adoption of ordinance to collect signatures 

-30 days for council to reconsider 

-20 days for petitioners to request election

-10 days for clerk to certify signatures

-5 days to set election within 30-60 days

If it gets to a vote, I expect it to be campaigned as a referendum on casinos as a whole &, if successful, would threaten the casino’s likelihood & potentially even the casinos being considered by the state next year.  

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8 hours ago, 23320 said:

Norfolk City Council approves casino land deal - Virginian-Pilot

The article mentions that one of the speakers intends to begin a referendum petition. Those are very difficult to get on the ballot & are only advisory if passed but obviously has worked in the past (light rail). 

“The city and tribe have touted the high-end estimates of what the casino complex could be: a $700 million project that features as many as 4,000 slots and 225 table games with a 500-room hotel. 

At a minimum, any casino would have to include at least 750 slots and 25 table games, with a hotel as small as 150 rooms.”

That is a pretty wide range. I am curious how a casino in Portsmouth would impact the final product. Hopefully they deliver what has been pitched.

Also, the Pilot is still reporting the $3 million floor. I don’t think it’ll matter whether it’s $3 or $5 million but hopefully that gets clarified. 

Yeah, I spoke to her last night on Facebook. She is quite strident and was talking about preserving the history from the 1800s under this vacant lot. Then she segued into how we should not be giving land to, her words, “a foreign sovereign nation”.... Nevermind the fact that this “foreign” nation was here long before us and has history that predates the 1800s by thousands of years... I just can’t take her seriously. A referendum is already scheduled to happen by law if the casino goes the commercial route. She cannot, however, force a referendum on the tribal route no matter how many signatures she collects. Once that land is transferred, it’s done, and Norfolk no longer has jurisdiction. This is all a moot issue.

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