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Headwaters Resort & Casino (Proposed)


Norf Native

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I like the design of the grounds heck even the Hotel and casino portion.  We were kind of promised a tower.  This is just like Gateway Tower that was reduced to Gateway midrise.  Yes it seem Norfolk hates height and keeps accepting mediocrity.  

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3 hours ago, mike4s said:

Norfolk got screwed on this deal...  With the state legalizing non-tribal Norfolk would have had proposals from several competing parties like Richmond. 

Thank you. Exactly.  Last night, I sent a rather blistering email to the City Council, economic development team and city manager saying just that.

Edited by baobabs727
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Seems like Norfolk would’ve been screwed anyways with the Waterside deal with Cordish. Don’t know what is happening with this nowadays but can expect this to drag out:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-norfolk-casino-cordish-lawsuit-threat-20201106-lz3yknlnvjaizkx2owutg2qmk4-story.html%3foutputType=amp

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8 hours ago, vaceltic said:

Seems like Norfolk would’ve been screwed anyways with the Waterside deal with Cordish. Don’t know what is happening with this nowadays but can expect this to drag out:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-norfolk-casino-cordish-lawsuit-threat-20201106-lz3yknlnvjaizkx2owutg2qmk4-story.html%3foutputType=amp

Nah, I think Cordish's lawsuit was all bluster. They would've done something long ago if they really had a leg to stand on. I do wish them luck though. Maybe their lawsuit can save us from this monstrosity.

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1 hour ago, mistermetaj said:

Everyone is way too focused on height. Give me a development that interacts well with the street, is walkable, connected, and adds to the urban frabric of the city. This does all these things and will spur more developments around a ball park, casino, train, and lightrail stations. This is a net positive for Norfolk. We don't need height to enjoy what this will add to the city.

This statement is said every time we have a building presented to us that starts tall and then is substantially reduced in height, which has happened with every single high rise that has been proposed in this area over the past decade. Every single one. I could understand this criticism if this only happened once or twice but every time? I think people are rightfully frustrated by the constant bait and switch. Height isn’t everything, that’s absolutely correct, but there’s nothing wrong with wanting at least one of these buildings to cross the finish line with their original height intact.

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I could take or leave the height, I just think the design looks very out of place compared to what we were given a couple years ago. The old Greenie’s site would be great for a hotel development like this. It has a waterfront look, but I’m thinking along a beach and not the River. 

I know I keep talking about the Arkansas design, but that makes more sense here. If it brings more development to the area and maybe a stadium expansion, great. 

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2 hours ago, vdogg said:

This statement is said every time we have a building presented to us that starts tall and then is substantially reduced in height, which has happened with every single high rise that has been proposed in this area over the past decade. Every single one. I could understand this criticism if this only happened once or twice but every time? I think people are rightfully frustrated by the constant bait and switch. Height isn’t everything, that’s absolutely correct, but there’s nothing wrong with wanting at least one of these buildings to cross the finish line with their original height intact.

I understand the sentiment and felt it for many developments in Norfolk. This one specifically though is removed from downtown, so a tall building there now would almost make it awkward. It is however, eliminating an expansive parking lot, and hopefully attracting more to the area, where they will use Amtrak (bringing more service to Norfolk) and light rail to get to downtown. It looks pleasant and walkable in the renderings. There is too much to like about it for me to be upset over a substantial hair cut. 

Long term, this might be the spur that generates high rise residential and mixed use developments on the other side of the ballpark, creating a brand new distinct district for Norfolk. That is ultimately what I am hoping for there.

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1 hour ago, BFG said:

I could take or leave the height, I just think the design looks very out of place compared to what we were given a couple years ago. The old Greenie’s site would be great for a hotel development like this. It has a waterfront look, but I’m thinking along a beach and not the River. 

I know I keep talking about the Arkansas design, but that makes more sense here. If it brings more development to the area and maybe a stadium expansion, great. 

That Arkansas design has less height than this, and is much more suburban. I honestly don't know why you keep bringing it up.

 

If this was proposed for downtown proper or where Waterside is right now then yeah I'd be absolutely furious. But guys look at where it is right now. It's 500 feet from an electric power transfer station for goodness sake. It's taking over an area that is a parking lot, dilapidated pier, and is a brownfield site.  It's not what any of us wanted architecturally, but it will help spur development in a part of a city that is formerly industrial and is hemmed in by the intersate, bring traffic to our amtrak and light rail stations, and will improve pedestrian and environmental conditions in the area.  If it can do all of that, then this design is fine.

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It's not a bad design.  Hopefully the area is developed in a way that allows it to be an extension of downtown...  I just think Norfolk sold itself short again.  I'm just certain if it was open for public bidding there would have been a larger proposal from another group.

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1 hour ago, Arctic_Tern said:

That Arkansas design has less height than this, and is much more suburban. I honestly don't know why you keep bringing it up.

Clearly I must like something about the design. It is what it is. 

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On 4/22/2021 at 3:59 AM, SuffolkWahoo said:

As negative as we are on this thread, the vast majority of "regular joes" on Facebook love it.  That said, I too am disappointed in the fact that we are not getting a tower as advertised.  Maybe they will build a couple towers across from in in the next five years or so (as shown in the original rendering).  Here's to hopin!

Yup, I crap on it on the Norfolk reddit page and was thoroughly down voted. Some guy said that they might not be able to build tall so close to the water. I told him to look at Dominion Tower. People are so willing to accept mediocrity, it's sad. 

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23 hours ago, Virginia City said:

Yup, I crap on it on the Norfolk reddit page and was thoroughly down voted. Some guy said that they might not be able to build tall so close to the water. I told him to look at Dominion Tower. People are so willing to accept mediocrity, it's sad. 

I will say, the question isn't whether it is possible to build tall or not, which could be an issue not knowing what the ground is like but since Dominion Tower is built nearby along the waterfront something taller would be possible. The real question is does the developer of this casino want to pay for the expensive cost to build a tower on that site. I would imagine the amount of piles that would need to be driven to support a tower in that location would escalate the cost of the project and could make it harder for a project like this to pencil out.

With that said, I will say the current design is still very striking even though it isn't a tower and will still have quite a presence in the area.  Hopefully a project like this will cause new development to happen west of the stadium and north of the stadium to create a more vibrant urban district. There is a lot of potential around that area, but there is just nothing there besides the stadium.

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7 hours ago, urbanlife said:

I will say, the question isn't whether it is possible to build tall or not, which could be an issue not knowing what the ground is like but since Dominion Tower is built nearby along the waterfront something taller would be possible. The real question is does the developer of this casino want to pay for the expensive cost to build a tower on that site. I would imagine the amount of piles that would need to be driven to support a tower in that location would escalate the cost of the project and could make it harder for a project like this to pencil out.

With that said, I will say the current design is still very striking even though it isn't a tower and will still have quite a presence in the area.  Hopefully a project like this will cause new development to happen west of the stadium and north of the stadium to create a more vibrant urban district. There is a lot of potential around that area, but there is just nothing there besides the stadium.

I agree that there is a considerable added expense involved with creating a proper foundation to build taller structures given our geologic substrate. 
 
Also, the scope of this development was downsized as reported in the VP, due in part to the Va. Legislature passing laws allowing for legalized gaming referendums in three other communities. The referendums passed, considerably increasing the supply of gaming opportunities . The new proposal actually represents an increase of investment since then. 

At that time the City of Norfolk reworked its agreement with the Pamunkey  Tribe.  The casino land is no longer going to be but into a trust, and will not receive the associated city tax breaks. Also, the Pamunkey are still responsible for the ecological renewal and preservation of the riverfront area, which comes at no small expense, and no small benefit to the city.

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32 minutes ago, Norf Native said:

I wonder how the Amtrak station is incorporated in this design.  We don’t get to see that side of the development. 

There's a 5th image on the allinnorfolk site that hasn't been posted much which shows it a bit better:
spacer.png

So with my eye I'd say that it looks like they would keep a 2 lane road intact (reference image below) with a roundabout towards the water. One thing I am worried about and hope to get some clarification on is it doesn't look like there's much access to the station from the parking garage. Is that garage meant to still be usable by Amtrak patrons or will they have to use the surrounding lots?

 

Screenshot 2021-04-25 153738.png

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22 hours ago, Arctic_Tern said:

There's a 5th image on the allinnorfolk site that hasn't been posted much which shows it a bit better:
spacer.png

So with my eye I'd say that it looks like they would keep a 2 lane road intact (reference image below) with a roundabout towards the water. One thing I am worried about and hope to get some clarification on is it doesn't look like there's much access to the station from the parking garage. Is that garage meant to still be usable by Amtrak patrons or will they have to use the surrounding lots?

It looks like the main drop-off entrance to the complex, and therefore the lobby, is right there so Amtrak riders would have a straight shot.  Hopefully more details will show better pedestrian connectivity.  The corner of the garage across from the station appears to be better lit than the rest of that side so perhaps there is an entrance there for Amtrak parking?

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On 4/25/2021 at 3:39 PM, Arctic_Tern said:

There's a 5th image on the allinnorfolk site that hasn't been posted much which shows it a bit better:
spacer.png

So with my eye I'd say that it looks like they would keep a 2 lane road intact (reference image below) with a roundabout towards the water. One thing I am worried about and hope to get some clarification on is it doesn't look like there's much access to the station from the parking garage. Is that garage meant to still be usable by Amtrak patrons or will they have to use the surrounding lots?

 

Screenshot 2021-04-25 153738.png

I honestly didn't think it was possible for me to be even more underwhelmed by this project than I already was, but this last rendering did it. I've honestly lost all of the excitement that I previously had for this project. I just hope it spurs development in the surrounding area.

 

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  • vdogg changed the title to Headwaters Resort & Casino (Proposed)

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